Scotty CTA Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 That's just perspective, though. The sun is smaller and closer than you believe so it would still be giving light to where it circles to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 14 minutes ago, Scotty CTA said: That's just perspective, though. The sun is smaller and closer than you believe so it would still be giving light to where it circles to. It's not perspective at all. If an object is disappearing below the edge of a surface it will appear partially hidden no matter where you are on that surface. Try it yourself with an orange and the kitchen table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huddersfield Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 39 minutes ago, Scotty CTA said: That's just perspective, though. The sun is smaller and closer than you believe so it would still be giving light to where it circles to. So why does the Sun appear the same size no matter where on Earth you view it from, regardless of time of day? If it's small & near, its size should vary dramatically if you move thousands of miles in a different direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisegerwind Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Scotty CTA said: That's just perspective, though. The sun is smaller and closer than you believe so it would still be giving light to where it circles to. It would appear that you are really, really thick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty CTA Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Toepoke said: It's not perspective at all. It absolutely is. if one were to zoom in on that photo they'd see the whole thing. The 'object' is only seeming to disappear below the edge of the 'surface' due to perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty CTA Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Just now, Eisegerwind said: It would appear that you are really, really thick. And yet I'm not. (Tell the class what you disagree with in the video.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huddersfield Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Scotty - can you explain what you mean when you say 'perspective'? I have carried out observations of the Sun in my star-gazing days, & really very simple experiments projecting it through a telescope onto bits of white card show that the sun clearly disappears below the horizon. You can use simple photographic filters to get images of it half up/half down...it's genuinely bog simple to do & your local astronomical society would, I'm sure, be delighted to prove to you how wrong you are on this issue in front of your eyes. Also, think about why it doesn't change its size in the sky (which I mentioned above)...really basic geometry will tell you that it would HAVE to appear different sizes to different observers if it was small and close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty CTA Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Toepoke said: Try it yourself with an orange and the kitchen table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty CTA Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, Huddersfield said: Scotty - can you explain what you mean when you say 'perspective'? I'm not very technical. Does this help? The Sun never sets or rises, it stays the same distance over the Earth throughout it’s daily/annual journeys around. The appearance of rising and setting is all based on the law of perspective on plane surfaces. The Sun and Moon spotlights are perpetually hovering over and parallel to the surface of the Earth. From our vantage point, due to the Law of Perspective, the day/night luminaries appear to rise up the Eastern horizon, curve peaking high overhead, and then sink below the Western horizon. They do not escape to the underside of the Flat-Earth as one might imagine, but rather rotate concentric clockwise circles around the circumference from tropic to tropic. ~ Eric Dubay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huddersfield Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, Scotty CTA said: Oh dear... Shall we start with the fact that the camera is evidentially & obviously positioned below the line of the table, & even then his coin doesn't actually vanish. Oh, and it appears to get visibly smaller (of course it doesn't really - it just seems to); why doesn't the sun? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huddersfield Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Scotty CTA said: I'm not very technical. Does this help? The Sun never sets or rises, it stays the same distance over the Earth throughout it’s daily/annual journeys around. The appearance of rising and setting is all based on the law of perspective on plane surfaces. The Sun and Moon spotlights are perpetually hovering over and parallel to the surface of the Earth. From our vantage point, due to the Law of Perspective, the day/night luminaries appear to rise up the Eastern horizon, curve peaking high overhead, and then sink below the Western horizon. They do not escape to the underside of the Flat-Earth as one might imagine, but rather rotate concentric clockwise circles around the circumference from tropic to tropic. ~ Eric Dubay. Nope - that's really just waffle pretending to be science. The guy on the video says 35 miles across, 3000 miles high. Using basic geometry, we can show the arc in the sky it should take up from different positions. I can do the maths, which I'm pretty confident will show that we should see major differences in the size of the sun even from the same spot throughout a given day, never mind from a vantage point several thousand miles away. Edited August 17, 2018 by Huddersfield Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty CTA Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, Huddersfield said: I have carried out observations of the Sun in my star-gazing days, & really very simple experiments projecting it through a telescope onto bits of white card show that the sun clearly disappears below the horizon. You can use simple photographic filters to get images of it half up/half down...it's genuinely bog simple to do & your local astronomical society would, I'm sure, be delighted to prove to you how wrong you are on this issue in front of your eyes. Wasn't it simple to just zoom in on the sun to show that it didn't dip below the horizon, though. And wasn't it simple to show that the coin only appeared to disappear by moving it away on a flat surface? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimba Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 On 8/3/2018 at 4:47 PM, Kimba said: If you admit that you can't be righteous in yourself i.e. you're a sinner, then when you trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as atonement for your sins, God can then impart His righteousness to you because you believed the truth and you are then sealed and saved forever. Which means that all things are lawful for you (1 Corinthians 10:23). This means that you can do whatever you want to do after you are saved, and you still have eternal life. In practice, it is very rare to find a church that will teach this. Granted, Baptists and non-denominationalists say that they believe in eternal security, but, if you commit adultery, smoke, drink, or murder someone, they would say that you were never saved in the first place (Scotty!!!!) because a "Christian would never do those things". In other words, over 99% of Christian churches, including those that proclaim on their doctrinal statement that eternal security is true, believe you must work to maintain your salvation. The difference among the denominations is how much you can get away with before they label you as "not saved" or "backslidden". Therefore, even churches that teach eternal security do not really believe it, because they will say that someone is not saved if he "keeps sinning". Their rational is that God has changed us so that we no longer have the desire to sin after we are saved. All saved people know this is not true, because, to our flesh, sin is just as much of a temptation after we're saved as before we're saved, as Paul will point out in chapter 7 of Romans. Paul also says that a saved person still has a "vile body" (Philippians 3:21), even after he is saved. This means that a saved person has the same ability to sin after he is saved than before he was saved. Granted, a saved person can walk in the Spirit, but he can also, just as easily fulfill the lusts of his flesh. Fact is, when you get saved, you are a "new creature" but it's not on the outside appearance, as religious people want it to be - it's internally - your soul and spirit - "inner man" - and your new inner man CANNOT sin and you can never, ever, ever, ever lose your salvation. Good news, Good news all the way! I hope this helps. Still ignoring this Scotty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huddersfield Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Scotty CTA said: Wasn't it simple to just zoom in on the sun to show that it didn't dip below the horizon, though. And wasn't it simple to show that the coin only appeared to disappear by moving it away on a flat surface? That's not what happened though; the guy clearly positioned his camera below the plane of the table. You couldn't do that on a flat earth. Put the camera on the level and all you would see is the 10p ABOVE the surface, but appearing smaller. Edited August 17, 2018 by Huddersfield Edited for clarity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty CTA Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, Huddersfield said: Shall we start with the fact that the camera is evidentially & obviously positioned below the line of the table... As we often are on the varying surface of the earth. 7 minutes ago, Huddersfield said: ...& even then his coin doesn't actually vanish. There was no need. Toepoke showed a photo of a partial sun. I showed a partial coin. 6 minutes ago, Huddersfield said: Nope - that's really just waffle pretending to be science. The guy on the video says 35 miles across, 3000 miles high. Using basic geometry, we can show the arc in the sky it should take up from different positions. I can do the maths, which I'm pretty confident will show that we should see major differences in the size of the sun even from the same spot throughout a given day, never mind from a vantage point several thousand miles away. I'm not there yet. We're talking about 'perspective' and the sun appearing to disappear below the horizon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty CTA Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 7 minutes ago, Huddersfield said: That's not what happened though; the guy clearly positioned his camera below the plane of the table. You couldn't do that on a flat earth. Put the camera on the level and all you would see is the 10p ABOVE the surface, but appearing smaller. But there must have been a 'positioning' for this camera shot. 2 hours ago, Toepoke said: If I go higher up I'll see the whole of the sun that you say has gone below the horizon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huddersfield Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Just now, Scotty CTA said: As we often are on the varying surface of the earth. There was no need. Toepoke showed a photo of a partial sun. I showed a partial coin. I'm not there yet. We're talking about 'perspective' and the sun appearing to disappear below the horizon. Toepoke's photo was taken from the surface of the Earth, even in your model that has to be ABOVE the plane, so the sun moving away from you should still just appear to get smaller & smaller, and crucially, stay 100% above the horizon at all times. Set that video up yourself & post it - only demonstrating the camera at least on a level with the table. And still I don't have any explanation for why the sun doesn't appear smaller as it moves further away in the way the 10p does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huddersfield Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 1 minute ago, Scotty CTA said: But there must have been a 'positioning' for this camera shot. If I go higher up I'll see the whole of the sun that you say has gone below the horizon. Yes there is a positioning - the surface of the Earth. And yes if you go higher (quickly enough) it will appear to re-rise, but as soon as you stop, it will set. To compare like for like though, we should assume both images are taken from a stationary position; and I would bet good money within 10 minutes of Toepoke's photo, the photographer wouldn't be able to photograph the sun, on the grounds it would have sunk below the horizon (from his static position). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisegerwind Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 38 minutes ago, Scotty CTA said: And yet I'm not. (Tell the class what you disagree with in the video If you say so, can't say I'm convinced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty CTA Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 9 minutes ago, Huddersfield said: Yes there is a positioning - the surface of the Earth. And yes if you go higher (quickly enough) it will appear to re-rise, but as soon as you stop, it will set. To compare like for like though, we should assume both images are taken from a stationary position; and I would bet good money within 10 minutes of Toepoke's photo, the photographer wouldn't be able to photograph the sun, on the grounds it would have sunk below the horizon (from his static position). I believe that it is because it had moved too far away to be photographed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huddersfield Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 1 minute ago, Scotty CTA said: I believe that it is because it had moved too far away to be photographed. So, between the photo & that point, it should get smaller & smaller to the point it is too small to see...right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty CTA Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 I'll need time to try and answer what you are asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Man I guess YouTube has an answer for everything. Fair play to those chaps for allowing comments on their videos though. The guy's legs vanishing as he walks up the football field Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave78 Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 3 hours ago, Scotty CTA said: If I go higher up I'll see the whole of the sun that you say has gone below the horizon. That seems to be central to all this. Can we crowdfund a trip to the ISS for you Scotty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eisegerwind Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 4 hours ago, Scotty CTA said: And yet I'm not. (Tell the class what you disagree with in the video.) The bracketed statement tells a story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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