Further Claims Of A Fraudulent Count

[peasoupblu]

I think yessers must bin these conspiracy stories. This one is one of the worst, as you read it you can hear the twilight zone music playing. Written by clowns who know nothing about how the system works.So this box went missing...ooh. Replaced by special branch.who then replaced with yes votes..whilst ensuring ballot papers still cross matched with voters...get a life move on, sharpen your pencil for the next one in 10-15 years.

[Fred_Zeppelin]

Nothing but this might explain the odds a little.

Actually:- http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/scottish-politics/elections-watchdog-calls-in-police-over-no-camp-postal-vote-claims.25423662

[Auld_Reekie]

I didnt it was against the law to see some postal votes. I thought it was just a breach of the process. What's the actual charge here?

Regardless, it doesn't change what the votes were so we still lost.

[thplinth]

Actually:- http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/scottish-politics/elections-watchdog-calls-in-police-over-no-camp-postal-vote-claims.25423662

I see. So ONLY the No camp were allowed access.

The Electoral Commission decided to pass complaints it received to the police after making an initial assessment over whether there was any case to answer.

Agents representing each campaign are allowed to oversee the postal vote opening sessions, where checks are made to verify signatures and dates of birth against records. Elections Scotland instructions on postal votes accept that while staff are required by law to keep ballot papers face down, there may be occasions when the front of the document becomes visible.

"However, it is an offence for anyone attending the opening of postal votes to attempt to ascertain how any vote has been cast or to communicate any such information obtained," it adds.

One complainer is understood to have been concerned that information from the votes might have informed Better Together's decision to send the three main party leaders north of the Border and issue "the vow" over extra powers for Scotland.

Yeah the picture is starting to emerge now...

[Fred_Zeppelin]

I didnt it was against the law to see some postal votes. I thought it was just a breach of the process. What's the actual charge here?

Regardless, it doesn't change what the votes were so we still lost.

Agreed but any tightening up of procedure is a good thing, especially if it's close the next time.

[thplinth]

I didnt it was against the law to see some postal votes. I thought it was just a breach of the process. What's the actual charge here?

Regardless, it doesn't change what the votes were so we still lost.

Maybe let the investigation reach that conclusion before you do. Why so eager to accept you lost fairly when you don't know it. I am keeping an open mind.

[thplinth]

So they sampled the postal votes at numerous locations and then shortly thereafter went into a panic and made The Vow...strange considering the postal votes were supposed to be a strong No.

Using this information mid campaign like this is against the law it seems, for good reason.

[thplinth]

And also how did they arrange these private viewings, how did they manage to keep it secret from Yes? I though the guy at Wings said this shit could not happen blah blah blah...

Far too many folk on the YES side wanting to sweep this shit under the carpet I feel.

If they can have secret samplings and viewings of these votes what else could they do, did they do?

How do you really know?

You clearly don't.

[Auld_Reekie]

Aye, fair points. When Im talking about cutting down on conspiracy theories, Im mainly talking about the videos being circulated that have been explained time and time again. It's this that is making us look bad and stealing oxygen from where legitimate complaints may be made.

I didnt catch from this story that there were no Yes agents at these postal vote sessions which is obviously very concerning. As I said previously and before count, postal votes were the biggest concern. Im still stunned by that Glenrothes by-election win for Labour.

Ive no problem with the counts on the night and hope the paranoia about it stops. But Im all for full investigation into the postal process.

[Auld_Reekie]

FYI: 789,024 postal votes cast in total. 21% of total votes cast. Margin of win less than 400,000 votes.

[thplinth]

FYI: 789,024 postal votes cast in total. 21% of total votes cast. Margin of win less than 400,000 votes.

What was the result of just the postal votes do you know?

[ShedTA]

Yep I dont think the issue here is whether its a conspiracy or not, I think it now centres around breaches of process which may have been against the law. It may come down to whether the yes camp wish to pursue these opr whether they accept it made little difference to the final outcome. But if the analysis of the postal votes caused the "vow" to be produced, that to me is corrupt.

[Auld_Reekie]

What was the result of just the postal votes do you know?

Haven't a clue. I dont think such a breakdown would exist (which is convenient for any fraud). They were counted on the night but Im not aware of any breakdown.

IMO, rather than being concerned with the vote being invalid, it is important this opportunity is taken to prove the weaknesses in the postal vote process and if possible demonstrate it has been abused. It was clearly abused in Glenrothes and nothing was done about it. It is unaccepted for this referendum to pass and the same weaknesses be allowed to persist.

I also meant to add, another suspicion I had was Fife not counting by constituency like most other regions. Does anyone know what other regions didn't count along constituency lines? Fife was one of the biggest regions in the referendum and they appear to have done it as one super count. I might be wrong, but this is likely to have loosened the process rather than tightened it.

[Grim Jim]

Regardless of the postal vote breakdown, it appears that an offence has been commited.

[scoobydoo]

This, more than any of the other count issues, has legs.

If the three tory parties, and we all know what s they are, knew the postal vote they could perhaps get their leaders to come up to Scotland with false promises.

[Auld_Reekie]

If the three tory parties, and we all know what bunny rabbits they are, knew the postal vote they could perhaps get their leaders to come up to Scotland with false promises.

Yep. Underlines why purdah needs to be more than a convention. Cannot have access to how voting is going or be able to change the terms of the vote after voting has begun.

[peever1745]

Due to the fact that better Together were allowed to see a sample of the postal votes in the weeks leading upto the vote and change tactics is very unfair and against the law.Therefor we should get a re vote.

[scoobydoo]

that, cut out the middleman and just declare independence.

[thplinth]

Who were the custodians of the postals votes who allowed secret access to them for the No Campaign to do a secret count?

Is it your local council by any chance.

One of the biggest threats to any framework of controls is collusion. If person A is supposed to be honest and check Person B but isn't and he works with person B...

So what does councils giving secret access to No for secret counting of postal ballots when all involved must have known they were breaking the law tell you?

Collusion, on a massive scale.

[scoobydoo]

It will out if it is big. People are too stupid not to say anything. Look at ruth davidson.

[thplinth]

Who else had secret access to postal votes that we do not know about as clearly No was allowed access?

What would stop someone just replacing them with forged No's... it could be that simple. Wide open.

[Auld_Reekie]

Let's be honest, the postal ballots sat in various rooms over Scotland overnight for around 4 weeks. There will have been countless opportunities and access to the ballot papers post-verification if those that wanted to desired it.

[Jacobite]

If this is a runner then it will come out. I'm prepared to be corrected but as I understand it every vote is traceable and technically it would be possible to do an audit and paper trail of a sample of the votes to see if they tally with what people actually voted for.

Thats is not fool proof either if papers have been counted and then replaced however it would then be possible to a do re count.

I'm not into conspiracy theories and unless there is hard evidence nothing is going to come of any of this.

[mariokempes56]

The other critical aspect is that if the Tories knew did they also let their "friends" in the betting firms know. Hence why the odds were consistently nuts. People should be doing time over this. If the bookies were in on the secret then 10,000s of people have been robbed. Its that simple.

[Rossy]

The other critical aspect is that if the Tories knew did they also let their "friends" in the betting firms know. Hence why the odds were consistently nuts. People should be doing time over this. If the bookies were in on the secret then 10,000s of people have been robbed. Its that simple.

Yeap, that would be my concern.

I seriouslay doubt if there was any major tampering going on, but the fact that some people had access to the results of the postal ballots...and that the bookies seemed to be aware of these results.....needs investigating.

On a wider point, this is simply another example of the archaic, Victorian system that we use in the UK for voting. Make everyone carry and show photographic ID, and cut out postal voting....let's bring ourselves into the 21st century, please.