Refugee Crisis

[phart]

ISIS is from an ideology that has been spreading for centuries. The ideology picked up in strength with Saudi Arabia adopting wahhabism in the 20th Century. Couple that with a huge battle within Islam between the Sunni and Shia sects of which ISIS subscribes to a very militant form of Sunni Islam and within all of Islam a battle between modernists and fundamentalists leading to the path of potential reformation episode in Islam's history. ISIS sees anyone who is a non believer of their ideology including many Sunnis as sub human and should be killed. Saddam Hussein even adopted militant Sunnism to strengthen his hold in Iraq and use it against Shia internally and in Iran. Secular Bathism evolved into militancy. I doubt this path could have been avoided no matter what "the West" did.

Most reports put wahhabism as the central ideology which is fairly new. the EU parliament recognised it as such. It was a minor itch in the 18th century, then didn't pop it's head up again till After the destruction of the Ottaman empire with World War I, which was about the time that Western navies converted to oil and the region got drawn into global politics.

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2014/11/wahhabism-isis-how-saudi-arabia-exported-main-source-global-terrorism

Saddam Hussein was put into power by the CIA, see Bremner Bird and Fortune book "you are here" So blaming it on Saddam and not the West is giving them a degree of separation that doesn't exist.

Saudi Arabia became important as all the Israeli spying on America in the 60's and 70's soured relations and with GHW Bush taking control he used the Saudi's the way Israel used to be used. Which increased it;s power world wide.

[Orraloon]

Another few dozen drowned in the Med over this weekend. That's a few less the EU will have to worry about. Mind you, I suppose somebody in the EU will have to pick up the bill for disposing of the bodies. If only we had managed to make stay at home and die in their own country it could have saved us that expense as well.

Our political leaders just don't seem to have a clue how to start solving this problem or maybe they just don't care enough?

[phart]

3000 children die a day in Africa and have done for decades.

I went to fact check and it's much more

NAIROBI, 15 July 2005 - A disproportionately heavy burden of child deaths weighs on families in eastern and southern Africa. Every day 5,500 children under the age of five die across the 21 countries of the region and the majority of the deaths are largely preventable.

http://www.unicef.org/media/media_27680.html

[Lamia]

There was a vote in last Westminster Parliament to bomb Assad in Syria which was defeated. The last vote the other month was to bomb ISIS/Daesh in Syria to match Iraq policy. You can not use the bombing as a valid reason which has been very light. It's far more complicated than that and your comment looks like you are blinded by your political viewpoint on that point.

You can however use the illegal war in Iraq

[Alan]

You can however use the illegal war in Iraq

Iraq War - Bingo!

Alas for you the current problems do not centre solely around Iraq war. It is part of the jigsaw, along with earlier comments from phart and a whole load of other issues.

One big complicated mess.

[ParisInAKilt]

Iraq War - Bingo!

Alas for you the current problems do not centre solely around Iraq war. It is part of the jigsaw, along with earlier comments from phart and a whole load of other issues.

One big complicated mess.

Largely caused by western intervention in the Middle East

[Lamia]

Iraq War - Bingo!

Alas for you the current problems do not centre solely around Iraq war..

I don't say they did but the instability created is one of many factors. There are plenty of other things we in the west have also done that have also played a part so we cannot wash our hands of it.

[Alan]

I don't say they did but the instability created is one of many factors. There are plenty of other things we in the west have also done that have also played a part so we cannot wash our hands of it.

Don't see many people advocating washing of hands. UK taking in families from refugee camps. Seems fair to me. Don't see groundswell of opinion for any other action. What else do you suggest with some details and costing?

Other countries need to take the strain away from Western Europe. Saudi, Iran and Gulf States have done plenty of meddling. Don't see much from them and this is their local region and same religion.

[Ally Bongo]

I don't say they did but the instability created is one of many factors. There are plenty of other things we in the west have also done that have also played a part so we cannot wash our hands of it.

Devils Advocate

Edited February 1, 2016 by Ally Bongo

[Lamia]

Don't see many people advocating washing of hands.

You don't hmm then you are not paying m,much attention then.

[Ally Bongo]

Other countries need to take the strain away from Western Europe. Saudi, Iran and Gulf States have done plenty of meddling. Don't see much from them and this is their local region and same religion.

For years many prominent muslims in Europe and the UK warned successive Governments of the type of muslims they were letting in because they knew where they came from and the ideology of those areas.

Its clear this is why the the Gulf states are refusing entry because they are shit scared of the possible consequences so much so that they ignore the humanitarian cost

[Alan]

You don't hmm then you are not paying m,much attention then.

I'm totally missing the point you are trying to make or suggestions you have to improve the situation.

[Lamia]

I'm totally missing the point you are trying to make or suggestions you have to improve the situation.

I will make it simple for you then. I as explaining where we are, why we got here and why we should help because many many people think we shouldn't despite your blindness to this. You then changed the subject, I didn't.

[Ally Bongo]

Saudi Arabia and Turkey now pondering over sending troops into Syria as the rebels are being routed - which would be illegal.

Syria's foreign minister has warned them that any foreign troops entering his country would return in coffins.

This is the start of World War 3

Edited February 6, 2016 by Ally Bongo

[Robroysboy]

Russian involvement in syria and unkraine stinks. 

In saying that the UK and Americans involvement in Libya,  Iraq and Afghanistan could also be open to criticism.

Feel so lucky that I can bring my kids up in a country with no war. 

[Orraloon]

23 minutes ago, Robroysboy said:

Russian involvement in syria and unkraine stinks. 

In saying that the UK and Americans involvement in Libya,  Iraq and Afghanistan could also be open to criticism.

Feel so lucky that I can bring my kids up in a country with no war. 

Aye, it's brilliant that that the UK is hardly ever involved in any wars.

100 years of war

[G-Man]

No war on our shores, no bombs dropping on our homes, no guns firing at us when we try to get our shopping, no one bombing or shooting at our children's schools, so on and so forth.  We just love doing it one removed now. 

(You're being a wee bisum here Orra but you're still in my scrapbook. )

 

[ParisInAKilt]

7 hours ago, Orraloon said:

Aye, it's brilliant that that the UK is hardly ever involved in any wars.

100 years of war

Not forgetting the countless arms sold to other countries so they could wage further wars. 

Saying that the Iraq war etc could be open to criticism is putting it mildly. It was acts of terror and if the other way around people wouldn't stand for it. 

[phart]

8 hours ago, Robroysboy said:

Russian involvement in syria and unkraine stinks. 

In saying that the UK and Americans involvement in Libya,  Iraq and Afghanistan could also be open to criticism.

Feel so lucky that I can bring my kids up in a country with no war. 

Ukraine is fair enough, but in Syria the Russians have been invited and did the most to bring an end to the massive bloodshed. They got Assad to get rid of all his Weapons of Mass Destruction, bombed the shit out of ISIS and the other "moderate" (the free Syrian Army used chemical weapons are drugged up and indulging in cannibalism and mass infanticide) rebels.

Russia bombed the shit out of Aleppo and the Kurds moved into the area to take control, now Turkey are shelling the shit out of them as we speak. The Saudi's,Turks and Israel prefer ISIS to Assad and are working towards that with the help of NATO, however that's starting to dry up as more and more people realise what a feck up they have created.

No one talks about Yemen being starved to death really either, something Bernie Sanders is keen on. To mix threads.

[Orraloon]

11 hours ago, G-Man said:

No war on our shores, no bombs dropping on our homes, no guns firing at us when we try to get our shopping, no one bombing or shooting at our children's schools, so on and so forth.  We just love doing it one removed now. 

(You're being a wee bisum here Orra but you're still in my scrapbook. )

 

I'm more scrapheap than scrapbook material.

[phart]

Saudi's moving planes to Turkey and vowing to oust Assad.

[phart]

I'm hearing massive military build ups happening, Turks bombing the shit out of the Kurds, hospitals being hit in northern Syria, The Assad forces have taken Allepo (mostly and cut of ISIS oil convoy to Turkey).

This is about to turn into a clusterfeck.

[Mee]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/23/number-of-refugee-arrivals-in-greece-passes-100000-in-less-than-two-months

 

This year is going to be nuts. This could swing the EU referendum as it develops thought the spring

[Orraloon]

59 minutes ago, Mee said:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/23/number-of-refugee-arrivals-in-greece-passes-100000-in-less-than-two-months

 

This year is going to be nuts. This could swing the EU referendum as it develops thought the spring

How do you think the UK leaving the EU would change any of this?

 

[PapofGlencoe]

I thought I'd comment as i have some experience from a refugee camp in the Balkans (Croatian/Slovenian border).  I ended up going as a volunteer to one of the processing camps (long story...interest, seemed like a good thing to do, invited by a Croatian girl..very long story)..

 The camp was one they stop at when they first get to Slovenia.  There were about 6 large semi-permanent tents to house maybe 1500 people each.  Hard to tell exact numbers but when i was there a further 800 arrived straight off a police escorted convoy of buses (we gave every one of them food, water, chocolate for the kids).

I didn't know what to expect, I'm not naive (I've seen the pictures of large groups of men).  This was different.  It must have been about 75% families.  With small children.  Head of the household, wife and kids.  And they look so normal..that's an obvious point..they are not aliens but human beings..but you get my drift.  Very grateful, polite people.  

I did wonder, while i was driving through beautiful Slovenia, why they didn't want to stay there instead of Austria (the destination).  I can't think these people are scroungers at all, I think they're just looking for the best life.  I'm not sure the Balkans are perceived (rightly or wrongly) as a safe haven - there are large anti immigrant feelings.  In this camp, there were only about 20 volunteers; and some of them i'm told were paid by the UN.  Few were local. 

Point is, i think through more official channels we're looking at large scale migration of families - not men 18-35 years old as the media would have us believe.  Certainly now, rather than earlier in the crisis.  

I do remember there was a much smaller group which we didn't see, the army and police told us to clear an area in a tent for "dangerous people".  They were to get "deal with".  It seemed like a small number, though, i wonder what the hell it was all about.

Anyway, that's what I saw over three days.  I get that there are political leaders having big arguments but from what I saw it's families crossing the borders - they see Western Europe as the ideal.