Rossy Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 The SNP have always been a pro-EU party. The Tories, by necessity but not by natural leanings, are ostensibly pro-EU as well. They may share a wish for the same outcome, but both parties want that outcome for different reasons and there's no way the SNP will share a platform with the Tories to campaign for it. The Telegraph hates and detests the SNP with a passion. They'll concoct any brazen lie or non-story in some attempt to damage them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 The SNP have always been a pro-EU party. The Tories, by necessity but not by natural leanings, are ostensibly pro-EU as well. They may share a wish for the same outcome, but both parties want that outcome for different reasons and there's no way the SNP will share a platform with the Tories to campaign for it. The Telegraph hates and detests the SNP with a passion. They'll concoct any brazen lie or non-story in some attempt to damage them. What reasons? Tory's & Labour will campaign to stay in on a pro business and pro TTIP agenda. Ukip will campaign to leave on an anti immigration agenda. Socialist will campaign on an anti austerity and workers rights agenda. What do the SNP want? They're a probusiness and pro TTIP party! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 From an outsiders point of view it seems that the SNP used to oppose the EU for all the right reasons... And now they support EU membership for all the wrong reasons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caledonian1 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 From an outsiders point of view it seems that the SNP used to oppose the EU for all the right reasons... And now they support EU membership for all the wrong reasons I am trying to work out if the Telegraph or Scunnered hates the SNP most? I suspect one actually hates the SNP with a passion whilst the other is attention seeking once again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave78 Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 I don't expect to see you whinging about the "Westminster establishment" again Bah. It's not the aims of you socialistas i have trouble with Scunnered. It's the fact you're all so politically inept when it comes to actually organising a coherent movement. Quite frustrating! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 I am trying to work out if the Telegraph or Scunnered hates the SNP most? I suspect one actually hates the SNP with a passion whilst the other is attention seeking once again. Yes yes, Attack the person and not the message again. I'd dislike any party who will argue for business over workers rights. Sorry you disagree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Yes yes, Attack the person and not the message again. I'd dislike any party who will argue for business over workers rights. Sorry you disagree Have the EU not done quite a bit for workers rights ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 Have the EU not done quite a bit for workers rights ? EU regulations have crippled workers right to strike, trade union representation and have restrictions on workers pay and conditions. Regulations will be made stricter still as part of the TTIP agreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 (edited) EU regulations have crippled workers right to strike, trade union representation and have restrictions on workers pay and conditions. Regulations will be made stricter still as part of the TTIP agreement. A bit one sided there & missing out the good things ? Example being before EU membership UK workers didn’t have rights to paid holiday ? And i dare say Westminster has had more of an effect on your examples than the EU Edited May 23, 2015 by Ally Bongo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Ideally I'd like Scotland to leave be EU as an independent country but would need to read more. I suspect the campaign will be pro business and therefore pro EU, Cameron has no interest in the UK leaving the EU Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 EU regulations have crippled workers right to strike, trade union representation and have restrictions on workers pay and conditions. Regulations will be made stricter still as part of the TTIP agreement. Can you explain which EU regulations have crippled workers right to strike, trade union representation and pay and conditions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 A bit one sided there & missing out the good things ? With much legislation going against ETUC they are as toothless as the Labour-TU link. The EU commission are revisiting much of the "good things" especially as part of TTIP. The EU are hostile to workers and should be treated as such. One of the biggest critics of EU on workers is the Norwegian Trade Union movement which has majority representation. I had many conversations with Yes voters during indyref on why the Nordic model wasn't viable for iScotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 (edited) Can you explain which EU regulations have crippled workers right to strike, trade union representation and pay and conditions?Plenty of information here comrade http://www.no2eu.com/ Edited May 23, 2015 by Scunnered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 Does anyone have anything to say on SNP's position other than: 1. The SNP's message will be different from the Tories. -without explaining what that message will be. 2. Socialism is pyure shite, and nae cünt wants it. 3. Scunnered pyure hates ra'SNP byraway! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Plenty of information here compadre http://www.no2eu.com/ You are going to have to guide me I'm afraid. All I can see is a lot of articles that are anti-EU. I suspect the agenda is more anti-globalisation perse than the EU specifically. However, I can't see any article that looks as if it's discussing where EU regulations are restricting workers rights to strike or their rights to be members of trade unions. Any chance you can be a bit more specific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 (edited) Does anyone have anything to say on SNP's position other than: 1. The SNP's message will be different from the Tories. -without explaining what that message will be. 2. Socialism is pyure shite, and nae cünt wants it. 3. Scunnered pyure hates ra'SNP byraway! Well what did you expect? But you missed "4. The Telegraph is shyte" But anyway I thought the point of your original post was to make out that the SNP in siding with the Tory leadership in the EU deserved the equivalent fate of the Labour party in siding with the Tories over indyref. Labour suffered because a sizeable minority of Labour voters switched to the major anti union party in the next election, and that was enough to give that party a landslide victory that all but wiped out the Labour party. The equivalent would presumably be that a sizeable minority of SNP supporters would switch in the next election to the major anti (European) union party, which could imply some SNP supporters switching to UKIP. Presumably mainly on the second vote, and if so, allowing some UKIPpers into Holyrood. But would that have much impact on the overall election result?. the question here is whether SNP voters are more pro-SNP than they are anti-EU (since we could still get independence and still vote to leave the EU later)... Otherwise if your point was about the anti EU socialist parties then you could be implying that those socialist voters would decide not to lend their vote to SNP but vote socialist, but in Holyrood election presumably they'd vote socialist all along, no? (ie the SNP would not e punished too much by the socialists if they were always going to vote socialist not SnP, like we expect good socialists to do) In any case it's a great thread to get publicity about socialist parties people might not have heard of, on the back of getting people to read a Daily Telegraph article. Edited May 23, 2015 by exile Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffer Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 The Tories don't really want to leave the EU, they want to change its priorities and the way it's run. They want a neoclassical economic model rigidly enforced, all states forced to sell off assets i n the way the UK has and expansion of membership to surround and intimidate Russia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted May 23, 2015 Author Share Posted May 23, 2015 The Tories don't really want to leave the EU, they want to change its priorities and the way it's run. They want a neoclassical economic model rigidly enforced, all states forced to sell off assets i n the way the UK has With all due respect, that IS how the EU is run. The EU-Canada and EU-US trade agreements enforce this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffer Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 With all due respect, that IS how the EU is run. The EU-Canada and EU-US trade agreements enforce this. Its nowhere near the completely unregulated model for business the Tories want. They think BaselIII, working time directive etc are terrible restrictions on business and want the removed. They want all nationalised industries forcibly sold off by all governments. They also want the freedom of movement reduced to provably economically viable individuals, I.e. high earners only, which biases movement towards citizens of rich countries. TTIP is a bunch of shite, but to pretend the EU enforces radical neoclassical economics is nonsense. TTIP got knocked back in Congress last week btw. Great news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biffer Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 That's Basel III by the way, not a scene from Fawlty towers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaid Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 Basel III are international rather than EU regulations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted May 23, 2015 Share Posted May 23, 2015 (edited) Does anyone have anything to say on SNP's position other than: 1. The SNP's message will be different from the Tories. -without explaining what that message will be. 2. Socialism is pyure shite, and nae cünt wants it. 3. Scunnered pyure hates ra'SNP byraway! The SNP have said they will argue for the NHS to be ring-fenced from any potential TTIP negotiations, which is to their credit. Interestingly, however, I am not aware of them making the same stipulation for any other public service. Now, this is perhaps because other public services, like utilities and social security, do not fall within their remit, whereas the NHS - that cuddly toy of public services that even this granite-hearted Tory government pay lip service to - does. Even so, that shouldn't preclude them from expressing an opinion (they have been giving it big licks over austerity for long enough, after all) so it could be, as you often point out, that at heart they are a party of expedient neoliberal troughers. But to be fair, Salmond is quoted as saying that the SNP won't share a platform with 'fascists and non-democrats'. It's pushing it, but you could argue that the current Tory government have one foot in the camp of the former. Its nowhere near the completely unregulated model for business the Tories want. They think BaselIII, working time directive etc are terrible restrictions on business and want the removed. They want all nationalised industries forcibly sold off by all governments. They also want the freedom of movement reduced to provably economically viable individuals, I.e. high earners only, which biases movement towards citizens of rich countries. TTIP is a bunch of shite, but to pretend the EU enforces radical neoclassical economics is nonsense. TTIP got knocked back in Congress last week btw. Great news. Some very good points there. However, a cynic might say that the EU's commitment to freedom of movement prevails mainly because Eastern Europe possesses a wealth of potential cheap labour. Edited May 23, 2015 by scotlad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maq Posted May 24, 2015 Share Posted May 24, 2015 "Mr Salmond, who was this week announced as the SNPs foreign affairs spokesman at Westminster, also attacks the Conservatives approach to an EU referendum. He says it would be inconceivable for the SNP to join a multiple party, pro-Europe campaign because it would include Tories." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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