Yes, The Blood, It Is My Victory

[DonnyTJS]

On ‎01‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 7:58 PM, Kimba said:

Mm, no, Paul's epistles also have to be rightly divided - in Romans 9-11 Paul is discussing Israel, who had to confess with their mouth.  

In this dispensation a person is saved when they simply believe the gospel as per 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

 

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Paul and his pesky bible-blending. For a set of books that contain no contradictions, the Bible sure seems to spark some controversy. 

 

[Kimba]

57 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said:

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Paul and his pesky bible-blending. For a set of books that contain no contradictions, the Bible sure seems to spark some controversy. 

 

I provided a link/s that explained very clearly that Romans 9-11 is Paul discussing the spiritual fall of Israel. That's why we are to study to show ourselves approved.  Scotty did exactly as the article said religious folk would do and get mad because they don't like the fact you're taking away something they think they have to do for salvation/add to salvation other than just believing the gospel.

Sadly, people take Bible verses out of contaxt all the time.

2 Tim 2:15 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

A person is saved when they believe the gospel.  You cannot add works or it becomes an accursed false gospel.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Kimba

[DonnyTJS]

26 minutes ago, Kimba said:

I provided a link/s that explained very clearly that Romans 9-11 is Paul discussing the spiritual fall of Israel. That's why we are to study to show ourselves approved.  Scotty did exactly as the article said religious folk would do and get mad because they don't like the fact you're taking away something they think they have to do for salvation/add to salvation other than just believing the gospel.

Sadly, people take Bible verses out of contaxt all the time.

2 Tim 2:15 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

A person is saved when they believe the gospel.  You cannot add works or it becomes an accursed false gospel.

Yeah, I tend not to read links in this sort of discussion because the source text is there for all to see and everything else is interpretation - though how it's possible to interpret "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek" as "For there is a huge difference between the Jew and the Greek" isn't really interpretation so much as wilful misreading. It is you who is removing the context - the text explicitly moves at this point from discussing Israel to stating that the same rules apply for both believing Jew and Gentile because it's "the same Lord over all" ... "for there is no difference".

 

[Kimba]

55 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said:

Yeah, I tend not to read links in this sort of discussion because the source text is there for all to see and everything else is interpretation - though how it's possible to interpret "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek" as "For there is a huge difference between the Jew and the Greek" isn't really interpretation so much as wilful misreading. It is you who is removing the context - the text explicitly moves at this point from discussing Israel to stating that the same rules apply for both believing Jew and Gentile because it's "the same Lord over all" ... "for there is no difference".

 

The Bible makes it perfectly clear that there are NO WORKS required for salvation because it's all about what Jesus Christ did - so no-one can boast.

Eph: 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Romans 4:

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The Bible makes is perfectly clear that if you pervert the gospel by adding works it is accursed.

 

Galatians 1:

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

So by using those CLEAR verses, amongst others, we can then in context see that 'confessing with the mouth' would be a work, and not a requirement for salvation.

Sadly, religious people want it to be about their self-righteousness so take Bible verses out of context and ignore the clear verses.

Many think that confessing with their mouth at the alter has saved them - they've trusted something they've done and not Christ.  Very sad.

 

Edited April 4, 2018 by Kimba

[DonnyTJS]

12 minutes ago, Kimba said:

 

So by using those CLEAR verses, amongst others, we can then in context see that 'confessing with the mouth' would be a work, and not a requirement for salvation.

Sadly, religious people want it to be about their self-righteousness so take Bible verses out of context and ignore the clear verses.

Many think that confessing with their mouth at the alter has saved them - they've trusted something they've done and not Christ.  Very sad.

So, by 'context' you mean ignoring the verses that counter your claim. I'll paste them again:

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Couldn't be clearer. The context is there showing that Paul is no longer referring solely to Israel.

[Kimba]

24 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said:

So, by 'context' you mean ignoring the verses that counter your claim. I'll paste them again:

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Couldn't be clearer. The context is there showing that Paul is no longer referring solely to Israel.

Again, that scripture is not part of the simple gospel (summarized in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and the Word is clear no works, so if you are insisting in trying to add an out of context scripture into the gospel, you are perverting it.  The gospel is that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day for our justification.  Faith alone that Christ paid your sin debt in full is what saves.  Please do not pervert the gospel by adding out of context scripture.

[DonnyTJS]

13 minutes ago, Kimba said:

Again, that scripture is not part of the simple gospel (summarized in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and the Word is clear no works, so if you are insisting in trying to add an out of context scripture into the gospel, you are perverting it.  The gospel is that Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day for our justification.  Faith alone that Christ paid your sin debt in full is what saves.  Please do not pervert the gospel by adding out of context scripture.

I'm not adding anything, I'm quoting Paul, in context, in which he explicitly states the connection between 'confessing with the mouth' and 'salvation'. In 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4 Paul tells his readers that they are saved "if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you" - and Paul's preaching includes Romans 10: 10-13.

[Kimba]

https://forwhatsaiththescriptures.org/2014/09/11/sinners-prayer/

Salvation from sins unto eternal life is totally based on Jesus Christ’s finished crosswork. It has nothing to do with a work on our part (a confession, a profession, a prayer, an aisle-walking, a water baptism, a monetary donation, an emotional upheaval, an “altar”-kneeling, et cetera). Let us read Romans 4:5 again: “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

 

[Kimba]

1 minute ago, DonnyTJS said:

I'm not adding anything, I'm quoting Paul, in context, in which he explicitly states the connection between 'confessing with the mouth' and 'salvation'. In 1 Corinthians 15: 1-4 Paul tells his readers that they are saved "if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you" - and Paul's preaching includes Romans 10: 10-13.

No, you're not being dispensational.  In this dispensation of grace salvation is an absolute free gift available to all based on Christ's finished work - we have ZERO merit of our own. 

We are to be preaching Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery in this dispensation. 

Eph 3:9 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Not being rude, but sadly many do not know right division between mystery and prophecy (Israel).

 

[DonnyTJS]

5 minutes ago, Kimba said:

No, you're not being dispensational.  In this dispensation of grace salvation is an absolute free gift available to all based on Christ's finished work - we have ZERO merit of our own. 

We are to be preaching Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery in this dispensation.

 

It's not me, it's Paul. I'm merely pointing out what Paul wrote. And everything Paul wrote was within the new dispensation since it has its roots in the Damascene Revelation.

[Kimba]

17 minutes ago, Kimba said:

https://forwhatsaiththescriptures.org/2014/09/11/sinners-prayer/

Salvation from sins unto eternal life is totally based on Jesus Christ’s finished crosswork. It has nothing to do with a work on our part (a confession, a profession, a prayer, an aisle-walking, a water baptism, a monetary donation, an emotional upheaval, an “altar”-kneeling, et cetera). Let us read Romans 4:5 again: “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

 

OBJECTION #3: WHAT ABOUT ROMANS 10:9-10?

There are some who are probably wondering about Romans 10:9-10, verses that appear on nearly every Gospel tract in the world today, verses that are quoted in probably every Evangelical Gospel sermon: “[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”

While the Bible is clear about what it says in these verses, these verses have a context that must be faced head-on. Dear friend, before you stumble over verses 9 and 10, please notice verses 1-3: “[1] Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. [2] For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. [3] For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.” Whose salvation is being discussed in Romans chapter 10? Our salvation? No, verse 1 says this is Israel’s salvation. There were two issues that unbelieving Jews did not want to accept as true during the Acts period—Jesus’ Messiahship and His resurrection (hence the language of Romans 10:9).

Today, some groups teach that, in order to be saved, a lost person must audibly confess Jesus as Lord of his or her life, and that they must then believe that Jesus was raised from the dead. Romans 10:9-10 is not our plan of salvation—this was how unbelieving Israel was saved in the Acts period under Paul’s ministry. Paul wrote the book of Romans during the book of Acts, and Romans chapter 10 is what Paul preached in the synagogues to evangelize Jews during the book of Acts. He never mentioned Romans 10:9-10 in any remaining epistles; it was unique to the Acts transition period. For more information, see the link at the bottom of this study, for our article on Romans 10:9-10 and the often-confused doctrine of confessing Jesus as Lord.

[Kimba]

5 minutes ago, DonnyTJS said:

It's not me, it's Paul. I'm merely pointing out what Paul wrote. And everything Paul wrote was within the new dispensation since it has its roots in the Damascene Revelation.

This may be of help in understanding the transition from the gospel of the Kngdom to the gospel of grace in Acts.  Pretty comprehensive.  I'm a mid acts believer by the way.

https://forwhatsaiththescriptures.org/2014/07/28/pauls-acts-ministry/

[DonnyTJS]

2 minutes ago, Kimba said:

OBJECTION #3: WHAT ABOUT ROMANS 10:9-10?

There are some who are probably wondering about Romans 10:9-10, verses that appear on nearly every Gospel tract in the world today, verses that are quoted in probably every Evangelical Gospel sermon: “[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”

While the Bible is clear about what it says in these verses, these verses have a context that must be faced head-on. Dear friend, before you stumble over verses 9 and 10, please notice verses 1-3: “[1] Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. [2] For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. [3] For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.” Whose salvation is being discussed in Romans chapter 10? Our salvation? No, verse 1 says this is Israel’s salvation. There were two issues that unbelieving Jews did not want to accept as true during the Acts period—Jesus’ Messiahship and His resurrection (hence the language of Romans 10:9).

Today, some groups teach that, in order to be saved, a lost person must audibly confess Jesus as Lord of his or her life, and that they must then believe that Jesus was raised from the dead. Romans 10:9-10 is not our plan of salvation—this was how unbelieving Israel was saved in the Acts period under Paul’s ministry. Paul wrote the book of Romans during the book of Acts, and Romans chapter 10 is what Paul preached in the synagogues to evangelize Jews during the book of Acts. He never mentioned Romans 10:9-10 in any remaining epistles; it was unique to the Acts transition period. For more information, see the link at the bottom of this study, for our article on Romans 10:9-10 and the often-confused doctrine of confessing Jesus as Lord.

 And what about Romans 10: 11-13? That pasting is simply dishonest - talk about taking verses out of context, Paul is explicitly widening the earlier discussion to include those beyond Israel, as I've pointed out above ...

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[Kimba]

ok, you're still going to ignore the fact that God says there are no woks for salvation because you're not rightly dividing.  I can't do much about that.  If one wants to stay ignorant, one will.  And believe me, if you add one single work to the grace of God, it results in NO salvation.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Kimba

[Kimba]

When Believing in Jesus Can't Save You

“Are you saved?”
“I believe in Jesus.” 

If you think this is what saves you, you might be deceived. You say, why wouldn’t someone who believes in Jesus be saved? 

Because you can believe in Jesus and not be saved. 

Don’t get me wrong. I believe in Jesus, too, and think that the salvation of all men is only found in him. Yet, the greatest lies resemble truth. The lie in this false gospel becomes obvious when you consider what is not expressed by this oversimplified statement.

For example, Muslims believe in Jesus: he is considered a prophet in the religion of Islam and the Koran. The Hindus believe in Jesus: he is a great guru for them. Historians believe in Jesus: he was a first century Jew who lived in Galilee. Even the devils in hell believe in Jesus and tremble!

Do you see that there are times when merely believing in Jesus cannot save? Here is how you know when believing in Jesus cannot save you. 

When you don’t know who Jesus is. 

If you don’t know that Jesus was Christ, the Son of God, then he cannot save you. Jesus said: 

“I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” – John 8:24

This means Jesus Christ was God manifest in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16; Col 2:9). If he is not, he cannot be your Saviour (Titus 2:13). God is the only Saviour (Isa 43:11). If Jesus is not the fullness of the Godhead bodily, then he is an imposter, a liar, or worse. 

When you don’t know what Jesus did.

Why did Jesus need to die? If you don’t know, then let me be frank: you are not saved, but you can be. 

Maybe he was not crucified at all like the Koran wrongly teaches? Perhaps he died naturally, or died without blood like some false Bibles teach. If he did not die, shedding his blood, cursed on a cross, then your sins cannot be forgiven (Eph 1:7; Heb 9:22). 

Without the cross, God has no means to save anyone. 

Did he not rise from the dead? Then, you have no proof Jesus was Christ, no hope of glory, no comfort in death, no salvation from sins, and no expectation of eternal life (Rom 4:25; Matt 12:40; 1 Thess 4:14). 

“And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.” – 1 Corinthians 15:17

When Jesus did not complete the work. 

James, the apostle to the twelve tribes, writes that faith without works is dead. Mere belief in Jesus does not justify unto salvation. After all, even the devils believe and know who Jesus is:

“Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.”- James 2:19

“ And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.” – Luke 4:41

James was teaching justification to the twelve tribes of Israel under their law covenant. This was not written with the knowledge of the mystery of Christ, the gospel of God’s grace.

The gospel of grace is that Christ did all the work necessary for your salvation (Rom 4:5; Titus 3:5). This is called grace, and it is offered freely (Rom 3:24). 

There is nothing else that need be done (Col 2:10). How can this be? Christ did it all. Your only response is faith.

The only way to be saved is by grace through faith, and this is only possible if the work needed to save you was completed by Christ, the object of your faith.

If you think you must contribute some work in order to seal the deal with God, then believing in Christ is not enough to save you. You are not trusting his finished work on your behalf (i.e his grace to you). 

How Believing in Jesus Can Save You

The Lord Jesus Christ revealed the gospel that saves any man today to the apostle Paul. This gospel of grace allows Christ to save through mere belief in the gospel of Christ (Eph 1:13)

“To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” – Romans 3:25

Before that time, the righteousness of God to save by faith alone was not known, and so faith by itself would impugn the righteousness of God to save (James 2:20). 

Christ had to make himself known to Israel for people to believe who he was, he had to die and resurrect for men to know what he did, and the mystery of the gospel had to be revealed before belief could stand alone without works, law, or Israel (i.e. pure grace). 

There was a time when belief in Jesus was either impossible, or insufficient, but now according to the revelation of the mystery, faith in Christ is what saves upon hearing the gospel of the grace of God. 

Jesus was God in the flesh who died for your sins, rose from the dead, and revealed the gospel of his finished work having done everything necessary for your salvation. Trust him to be saved according to the gospel of grace. 

If you don’t know who Jesus is, what he did, or fail to trust his finished work, then believing in Jesus cannot save you. 

Are you saved?

“I believe in Jesus”

So what. What do you believe about him? How does he save you? How do you know?

http://graceambassadors.com/salvation/when-believing-in-jesus-cant-save-you

[DonnyTJS]

17 minutes ago, Kimba said:

ok, you're still going to ignore the fact that God says there are no woks for salvation because you're not rightly dividing.  I can't do much about that.  If one wants to stay ignorant, one will.  And believe me, if you add one single work to the grace of God, it results in NO salvation.

Leaving aside God's view of Chinese cooking implements and their place in the economy of salvation, I'm not ignoring anything. You however are doing precisely that by failing to explain Romans 10: 10-13. We know that the context is not Israel because Paul explicitly says so. I don't see how I'm the one who's ignorant when you're the one who's ignoring the scripture.

 

Edited April 4, 2018 by DonnyTJS

[Flure]

This is all very interesting.

I'm going to have to get a copy of this book and have a swatch.

That and "Building a Wood-fired Oven for Bread and Pizza" by Tom Jaine.

Can't let life pass me by.

[Larky Masher]

Oh fuck, there's two of them.

[Eisegerwind]

42 minutes ago, Flure said:

This is all very interesting.

I'm going to have to get a copy of this book and have a swatch.

That and "Building a Wood-fired Oven for Bread and Pizza" by Tom Jaine.

Can't let life pass me by.

It's really not though. Tell us more about this wood fired oven build.

 

[Flure]

47 minutes ago, Eisegerwind said:

It's really not though. Tell us more about this wood fired oven build.

 

I wouldn't want to hijack the thread and interrupt anyone's flow.

God forbid.

[Jim Beem]

7 hours ago, Larky Masher said:

Oh fuck, there's two of them.

To be honest its a good ‘2-4-1’ deal seeing both getting their regular schooling/skewering from Donny ‘the gate post’ or whatever it is they call him.  

[phart]

8 hours ago, Jim Beem said:

To be honest its a good ‘2-4-1’ deal seeing both getting their regular schooling/skewering from Donny ‘the gate post’ or whatever it is they call him.  

All I can think about when i say Donny described as a gatekeeper is the time the mods switch the swear filter to replace "gatekeeper" with "sweetheart"(or something like that), and the pure befuddlement of the actual poster called gatekeeper at why when he looked at his pots quoted it said sweetheart. lol Guess you had to be there.

[DonnyTJS]

5 hours ago, phart said:

All I can think about when i say Donny described as a gatekeeper is the time the mods switch the swear filter to replace "gatekeeper" with "sweetheart"(or something like that), and the pure befuddlement of the actual poster called gatekeeper at why when he looked at his pots quoted it said sweetheart. lol Guess you had to be there.

Yup. A fine example of unintended consequences:

Notice that I failed to use a hyphen in 'gatekeeper' at one point in the PM. 

[Kimba]

 

[Kimba]

From the comments:

Q: Can you explain 1 Corinthians 6:9? A pastor told me we have to live and forsake sin to get into heaven. He quoted 1 John and 1 Corinthians 6:9 that there was a list of those who would not be in heaven. Thanks and God bless!

A:It all comes down to identity. Once you are saved, you are baptized or identified with Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, according to Romans 6:3-4. "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God" (Colossians 3:3). If you sin after you are saved, the blood of Jesus has already paid for that sin. Therefore, when God looks at you, He does not see your sin; He sees Christ. You are "accepted in the beloved" (Ephesians 1:6), and the beloved is Christ. Therefore, you have NOW been justified by Jesus' blood (Romans 5:9), and you have NOW received the atonement (Romans 5:11). I Corinthians 6:9 and Galatians 5:19-21 say that unbelievers do these things and they do not inherit the kingdom of God. However, because you are in Christ, you do inherit the kingdom of God, therefore your conversation should be heavenly, rather than earthly (Philippians 3:20). Note that I Corinthians 6:11 goes on to say, "And such WERE some of you, but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus." In other words, regardless of what you do, you are not a person of I Corinthians 6:9 because you have been washed, sanctified, and justified by the blood of Christ. Because your life is hid with Christ in God, the only way you can lose your salvation is if Christ lost His salvation, which can never happen, because He lived a perfect life. That is why II Timothy 2:13 says, "If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny Himself." You cannot lose your salvation, regardless of what you do, because your life is in Christ, He abideth faithful, and God cannot deny Himself.

 

my comment:  1 Cor 6:9-11 and Eph 5:5 is exhorting us to live as God has made us in Christ, it is NOT as false teachers teach that you can lose your salvation. Context is important.