Jonny Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 A guy at my work (2 weans) who I've always had down as a total No as he's an 'internationalist' said to me today he's a 4 ( on the where are you from No 1 to yes 10 scale). I was amazed. I asked him why and he said the better together campaign was awful.I asked him if he'd heard of Bella, Nationalcollective, things like that and he's very amiable to the transformative left. But Naw. Not read a single thing. He hates Salmond and and Sturgeon, wouldn't trust them at all.His main worry in his mind is, - it's going to cost a lot to set up a new set of institutions that an independent country would need. BUT, he asked me to send him stuff. Websites, blogs, etc. I've not been keeping enough of a check of 'info for the undecideds' so if anyone has a group of links to pass on that would be snice. I've got a list of wings, bella, weegingerdug (sniff), derekbateman etc. but I think he'll see them as nationalists sites and that's bad. He IS for turning. Bear in mind, the only way his mind is going to be swung is by the Left (UK wide) benefiting. Any links appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherps Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 I know two "internationalists" and it's very difficult to convince them to vote YES, even though it probably conforms to their views fundamentally. They see borders as a bad thing, which to an extent they probably are. Try and push forward Scotland's membership of the EU (rUK's referendum on leaving? more borders/separation?) and UN as engagement/solidarity in wider world issues. As much as I find it patronising, there is also the issue of how we'll show the wider UK how to bring about a more socialist state (true NHS, free higher education, wealth distribution?). The other thing may be to bring up the point that drawing a border between Scotland and Ni/Wales/England is no different to that of drawing borders with Holland/Azerbaijan/Venezuela etc, which already exist. Drawing another border is no different than what we already have. If we have solidarity between the workers in the British Isles, then surely we can have solidarity in the wider world. Make the point that British nationalism, which NO is pedalling to an extent, is no different from any other type of nationalism. What we're voting for is democracy, not nationalism! The only link I can provide is the socialist worker - http://socialistworker.co.uk/ Taking on dogma like "internationalism" was better done by men born 150 years ago, with better beards than I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brant grebner Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 George Monbiot's stuff in the guardian recently https://archive.today/v2XCB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brant grebner Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 Tariq Ali Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brant grebner Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 Craig Murray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brant grebner Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 Max Keiser ("long" "annoying" "grating" "I only watched 10 minutes") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brant grebner Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brant grebner Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 #AyeOrDIe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brant grebner Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flora MaDonald Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 Tell the commie tae fuckr off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exile Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 For internationalists, what about the Green angle? The Greens are internationalists concerned not just with 'these islands' but the whole planet. This includes social justice, etc, at a global scale. Not sure what all their policies are but often to the left of labour. The Greens are an international movement, and the Scottish greens have comrades in the rest of the UK who will remain comrades after independence. Remember in that debate, Patrick Harvie said clearly "I am not a nationalist". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Dod Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 In my, admittedly limited, experience internationalists have tended to be closet British nationalists or pretentious fuds. Or both. If this guy is genuine ask him if he would rather be part of the most insular, xenophobic country in Europe, (soon to be out of Europe), or join in and help make a new, progressive, outward-looking Scotland. Get him to look up National Collective and RIC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balloch Thistle Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 A guy at my work (2 weans) who I've always had down as a total No as he's an 'internationalist' said to me today he's a 4 ( on the where are you from No 1 to yes 10 scale). I was amazed. I asked him why and he said the better together campaign was awful.I asked him if he'd heard of Bella, Nationalcollective, things like that and he's very amiable to the transformative left. But Naw. Not read a single thing. He hates Salmond and and Sturgeon, wouldn't trust them at all.His main worry in his mind is, - it's going to cost a lot to set up a new set of institutions that an independent country would need. BUT, he asked me to send him stuff. Websites, blogs, etc. I've not been keeping enough of a check of 'info for the undecideds' so if anyone has a group of links to pass on that would be snice. I've got a list of wings, bella, weegingerdug (sniff), derekbateman etc. but I think he'll see them as nationalists sites and that's bad. He IS for turning. Bear in mind, the only way his mind is going to be swung is by the Left (UK wide) benefiting. Any links appreciated. Get him to google Labour for Independence, he needs to hear from like minded individuals not Labour politicians who would sell their own people down the drain for a dip in the London gravy train. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hertsscot Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 The Billy Bragg clip from another thread is pretty good. Not heavy weight political analysis but sums it up why a socialist or internationalist would vote Yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cove_Sheep Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 RIC and some of Tony Kenny & Cat Boyd's stuff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilly71 Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 The estimated start up cost are what £200 million? Even if you doubled that it's easily negated by taking out our share of trident, the 3 billion ( again you can mibbe double that cost) cost of westminsters refurbishment, our share of the hs2 rail link, our share of propping up the House of Lords etc.... How lefty is he that he doesn't instantly want to scrap trident and the House of Lords before worrying about start up costs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 A guy at my work (2 weans) who I've always had down as a total No as he's an 'internationalist' said to me today he's a 4 ( on the where are you from No 1 to yes 10 scale). I was amazed. I asked him why and he said the better together campaign was awful.I asked him if he'd heard of Bella, Nationalcollective, things like that and he's very amiable to the transformative left. But Naw. Not read a single thing. He hates Salmond and and Sturgeon, wouldn't trust them at all.His main worry in his mind is, - it's going to cost a lot to set up a new set of institutions that an independent country would need. BUT, he asked me to send him stuff. Websites, blogs, etc. I've not been keeping enough of a check of 'info for the undecideds' so if anyone has a group of links to pass on that would be snice. I've got a list of wings, bella, weegingerdug (sniff), derekbateman etc. but I think he'll see them as nationalists sites and that's bad. He IS for turning. Bear in mind, the only way his mind is going to be swung is by the Left (UK wide) benefiting. Any links appreciated. In my view, a No vote passively endorses what the ConDems are doing. There is no way the rest of the UK can benefit from that. On the other hand, if we vote Yes it is possible that people elsewhere in the UK, including those feeling the strain of Westminster's boot, will think 'good for them' and start asking questions of their own. The UK establishment badly needs a shake-up if true parity for ordinary people is to be achieved. Billy Bragg certainly believes that a Yes vote this coming Thursday might give the English left jolt: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/23/scotland-vote-yes-set-english-free-independence-devolution As regards start-up costs, Neilly is right. A lot of state apparatus is in place already and others can be easily negotiated. The only slightly tricky things I can think of off the top of my head are the armed forces and foreign consulates (I am pretty sure the Wee Blue Book covers all that though). I do wonder, though, if your pal really is an internationalist then why is only concerned about the UK? After all, socialism knows no borders. By the same token, I can't think of a genuine radical left-winger who has argued against his own country's independence; think Connolly and MacLean. And as someone once famously asked Alistair Darling recently, if we really would be better together by voting No, then why aren't we better together already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny Posted September 13, 2014 Author Share Posted September 13, 2014 Thanks folks for all your replies, I've sent him an email with all the decent links. I do wonder, though, if your pal really is an internationalist then why is only concerned about the UK? After all, socialism knows no borders. Scotlad, I agree. There's something quite acerbic about self proclaimed 'internationalists' that when they hear the word 'nationalism' they react instinctively against it, without looking at what's actually going on. There's a natural reaction against it. No matter how clever they are, they have constructed a bubble around themselves to exclude emotional feelings, to think of passion as just rambling rhetoric. There is a valid point to that but on both sides of the debate these people exist. To me this head and heart argument is junk. If you can't vote with your head, vote with your heart. Every time. Your head will soon catch up and justify the heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khana Lagur Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 (edited) Send him this link http://wingsoverscotland.com/to-my-friends-in-labour/ It's probably the best thing I've read in over two years of this campaign. It if doesn't make Labour diehards feel ashamed then nothing will. Edited September 13, 2014 by Khana Lagur Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilser Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Kevin McKenna is steeped in Labour but has just confirmed that he will vote Yes. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/14/kevin-mckenna-why-i-am-voting-yes-for-scottish-independence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hertsscot Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Could add this to the reading list about relatisonship between Labour and Scottish independence: http://anotherscotland.wordpress.com/2014/09/14/a-letter-to-labour-voters/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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