Larky Masher Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 Right. But you accept that FFA can't come about without full detail? What tax powers, how the two parliaments interact, what institutions Scotland needs, etc. Such a bill (or bills) needs to be written and make it's way through Westminster, the Lords and the Scottish Parliament, and that's before you consider any knock on legislation for the rest of the United Kingdom. And then comes the finance. It will take a LOT of money to implement - Scotland will need it's own Revenue & Customs department, probably a beefed up parliament, some new governmental departments, etc, etc, etc. That comes will come from the UK Treasury - it's not going to be cheap. And after/during all that, Scottish and UK businesses will need to be given time to support the requirements of one of both Treasury's. The idea that this can be implemented with no more than a Bill through the UK Parliament is absolute fantasy. It cannot be done on a whim. IMO, we'd be looking at this parliament sorting out the legislation and the basics, with the next parliament phasing in the change to FFA. And that's assuming they agreed and started on it right now. Given the Tories are about to kick off a major EU referendum campaign, Im not sure they'll also want to kick off FFA at the same time. So it's more likely to be the second half of the parliament if at all. Fundamentally though, the Tories need FFA to work because if it doesn't, Scotland won't be rolling back devolution, it'll be opting for full independence. And they can then kiss goodbye to UN security council, Trident and the glorious Union. I think some folk need to take a few days to take a deep breath and let the realities sink in. I don't think the Tories will want it work they want it to fail to undermine the SNP and push independence off the agenda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I honestly don't think the Tories will be into negotiating that much they'll try to push through the most disadvantageous scenario possible. I wasn't suggesting their would be much negotiations. What i meant was that they would have to agree amongst themselves what the think FFA is. Then they would need to agree how to implement it. I'm not sure they can be bothered with the hassell. They will be thinking "We won the referendum, we won the election, we'll give them some new token powers and let them get on with it. We have spent too much time pandering to them uppity Jocks already, Fuk em".They might use slightly more flowery language than that though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld_Reekie Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) I don't think the Tories will want it work they want it to fail to undermine the SNP and push independence off the agenda. You think they're going to blow a fortune on setting up a significant number of Scottish institutions just so it can fail? It's also not possible to implement FFA without re-architecting Westminster. IMO, the first thing that will happen when the Scottish budget is in the red, is that we'll look at the ridiculous amount of money we send south for an MOD than under-invests in Scotland and blows a lot of it's cash on Trident. Once it's implemented, I doubt you'll even find Labour looking to back-pedal so it won't just be about undermining the SNP. You dont blow all that cash just to prove a spiteful point because it's highly unlike to work IMO. At this point, the best hope they have is stalling for time long enough that the SNP implode or Sturgeons leaves office, and the party toils under new leadership. Edited May 11, 2015 by Auld_Reekie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larky Masher Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 You think they're going to blow a fortune on setting up a significant number of Scottish institutions just so it can fail? It's also not possible to implement FFA without re-architecting Westminster. IMO, the first thing that will happen when the Scottish budget is in the red, is that we'll look at the ridiculous amount of money we send south for an MOD than under-invests in Scotland and blows a lot of it's cash on Trident. Once it's implemented, I doubt you'll even find Labour looking to back-pedal so it won't just be about undermining the SNP. You dont blow all that cash just to prove a spiteful point because it's highly unlike to work IMO. At this point, the best hope they have is stalling for time long enough that the SNP implode or Sturgeons leaves office, and the party toils under new leadership. This is a party that's considering leaving the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld_Reekie Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 This is a party that's considering leaving the EU. That's not even remotely comparable. We're well placed to leave the EU. Aside from the paperwork, the UK has all the institutions required to be an independent country. That's an entirely different proposition to Scotland tooling up and being ready to execute the responsibilities for FFA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 That's not even remotely comparable. We're well placed to leave the EU. Aside from the paperwork, the UK has all the institutions required to be an independent country. That's an entirely different proposition to Scotland tooling up and being ready to execute the responsibilities for FFA. I'm sure he can speak for himself but I think he is talking about the amount of money that would need to be spent to set up the institutions. Leaving the EU would cost far, far more than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larky Masher Posted May 11, 2015 Author Share Posted May 11, 2015 I'm sure he can speak for himself but I think he is talking about the amount of money that would need to be spent to set up the institutions. Leaving the EU would cost far, far more than that. Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossy Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 I'm fine with FFA, but only if we get all levers and mechanisms to allow us to be 100% independent of the Tories 'austerity' budget. I would also like to our unnecessary contributions to Trident and our armed forces, but that isn't going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishcumnock Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 And lords !!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ally Bongo Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 The English economy (led by London) is pulling away from Scotland's economy and this will seemingly continue and paint an increasingly weak picture for Scotland. I wouldnt be too sure about the English false economy Thats why, despite how people say Oil and Gas only makes up 1% of it, they need it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggis_trap Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 (edited) Oil & Gas is one of the biggest industry in the UK (similar in size to the financial industry) If you add up all the tax it contributes (petroleum revenue, VAT, NI, income tax, corporation tax) then it is a massive tax contributor. This is why we wont get FULL fiscal autonomy. Edited May 11, 2015 by Haggis_trap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted May 11, 2015 Share Posted May 11, 2015 That's not even remotely comparable. We're well placed to leave the EU. Aside from the paperwork, the UK has all the institutions required to be an independent country. That's an entirely different proposition to Scotland tooling up and being ready to execute the responsibilities for FFA. I'm probably being naïve here but Scotland already has a number of large tax collection and benefit delivery centres. Currently they carry out work for other parts of the UK as well as Scotland but once the legislation is in place would it not be a case of those staff transferring over from Westminster to the SG? Okay, I am not naïve enough to think that there isn't likely to be the odd hiccup along the way (at best) and the policy, legislation and IT won't all just appear out of thin air, but the nuts and bolts are there. I'm fine with FFA, but only if we get all levers and mechanisms to allow us to be 100% independent of the Tories 'austerity' budget. I would also like to our unnecessary contributions to Trident and our armed forces, but that isn't going to happen. Completely agree with this. We need control of all 'fiscal levers' (©John Swinney) including powers over borrowing, taxation and the minimum wage otherwise the whole thing won't get off the ground, potentially leaving us in a worse position than we were before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jockodile Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Short term the recent barnet whining will naybe tempt tories towards ffa but remember tony blair onn it that bit extra spend keeps union together and the seat in the UN sec council. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddardStark Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Anyone serious about independence would welcome FFA . Its a transitional step and would convince a lot of hesitant No voters if the Scottish Govt delivered it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbers Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 not seen Alan for a long time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanday Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Think we are pretending to walk away from FFA. Reality is the supposed big gap is fiction. FFA will lead to independence as the numbers will be shown to have been false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menschlich Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 FFA will be disaster for Scotland unless this anti-austerity nonsense is shown to be the nonsense that it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariokempes56 Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 Nonsense , what nonsense ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jockodile Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 ffa in theory allows anti-austerity. we do need to get that horrendous debt down somehow though so it can't be a free for all. does annoy me that politicians of many hues are guilty of confusing 'deficit' with debt. to a lot of casual observers they could be viewed the same, ie eliminate the deficit and its all good. erm no, just not adding more to the outrageous 1.5T. What strategies could tackle the debt as opposed to deficit, austerity forever won't work. This is something I'd have genuinely liked to hear in GE election campaign, but all reporters were interested in was parties might do in coalition talks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orraloon Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I'm not too worried about the government national debt. It won't be paid off in my lifetime, so why worry about something you can't control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hampden_loon2878 Posted May 12, 2015 Share Posted May 12, 2015 I read thet there are 450k oil related jobs in the uk only 40% of those are in scotland Oil & Gas is one of the biggest industry in the UK (similar in size to the financial industry) If you add up all the tax it contributes (petroleum revenue, VAT, NI, income tax, corporation tax) then it is a massive tax contributor. This is why we wont get FULL fiscal autonomy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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