Bristolhibby Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 WTF is this Phart v Tartan Monkey to and fro all about? TBH I am really interested what Industy pilots opinions on this incident are. Right, better head off to the airport in a minute to get on my A320. J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) Not many engineers working in the aerospace industry could design and build an entire aircraft. It's a collaborative process involving millions of man-hours from diverse teams of specialist engineers/ designers and a global supply chain. The Airbus that crashed would've been assembled in at least 4 countries for a start. BTW the Comets didn't shake themselves apart IIRC, it was due to the previously unexperienced problem of metal fatigue in a pressurised cabin. Just an early entry on the long learning curve gleaned from commercial airline disasters. Of which this week's tragedy will be the latest... exactly designing an aircraft is much harder than flying it, engineers know more about it than pilots. that's my two statements. Yeah you're right i was wrong, i was trying to cut down on googling, seems i should have just kept it up to accurate. mistook the stress being caused by harmonics as opposed to design. Edited March 27, 2015 by phart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 WTF is this Phart v Tartan Monkey to and fro all about? I'm saying that building a plane is harder than flying it, and engineers know more about un-manned flight than pilots. TM says they are both difficult but one isn't more difficult than the other. I've tried to back this up pointing out i can fly a plane after 45 hours experience and passing multiple choice examinations, while it takes much longer to become proficient in engineering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristolhibby Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 TBH both sound rock solid and are beyond my Ken. Now, sounds like the boy had depression. Would his doctors be under any obligation to disclose this to his employers? J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnie x Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Not quite sure what special skills a pilot has that can give an insight into this. Looks like somebody with severe mental issues. It could be a bus driver who decided to drive his bus off a road and kill himself and everyone on board. Its much like any mass murderer that goes on a killing spree and ends up killing lots of innocent people and themselves. Its about the mental state of the person, not the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Now, sounds like the boy had depression. Would his doctors be under any obligation to disclose this to his employers? J Dunno i've had depression for years, i don't think i was expected to let them know. It probably depends on company policy, and not sure what informs that. I've got depression and have made an attempt on my life , i cannot understand the mass murderer element of it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartan Monkey Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 - you posted twice on the thread before anyone asked anything of you.You came nowhere you were already here. So lets not get all historical revisionist. it's all written down in this thread what happened and the chronology of the happening. I'm also sorry my opinion that engineering is not only more difficult than piloting it is also the better profession for answering the question on un-manned flight has damaged your ego to the extent you're now being extremely passive aggressive with one of the people who made that assertion and agreed to disagree with another. I'm now away to email the guy in Texas who informed me of the above "facts" and ask if he set me up with it, considering a pilots response. A bit like telling someone to say to a teacher, you get 8 weeks holiday, type of thing. Passive agressive? Interesting take on it considering you were the one telling me that I couldn't rememebr my own training! I've just noticed your original post to me. Clearly you have some sort of issue with me. I don't remember interacting with you in the past, but your original post suggests something. And yes, I was asked for my opinion before I gave it. By the way I didn't attempt to answer your question on unmanned flight. I'm more of a manned flight kind of pilot. I do know that not only is the technology not availible to operate every current and future commercial flight remotely, there isn't a public will to get on them. I do apologise if I'm repeating myself, jetlag do funny things to you. However if it makes you feel better I shall agree to disagree with you too. There we are all friends now, so no passive agressive behaviour on my part, and I can assure you no damaged ego. So I'll answer the questions on commercial aviation and you and your mate in Texas can answer the questions on unmanned flight. By the way I wasn't sure what passive agressive meant, so I googled it. See I do embrace technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld_Reekie Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Nae offence phart, but you've come across as a bit of a phanny here. Just my 2p. I think Tartan_Monkey has been perfectly fair and open and it's you that's taken the aggresive stance/tone. Weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartan Monkey Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 WTF is this Phart v Tartan Monkey to and fro all about? TBH I am really interested what Industy pilots opinions on this incident are. Right, better head off to the airport in a minute to get on my A320. J Aye getting a bit boring now. Sorry, wasn't meant to be pages of batting back and forth. Think it's beer time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 exactly designing an aircraft is much harder than flying it, engineers know more about it than pilots. that's my two statements. It's two very deifferent disciplines you're comparing though. Like saying the engineers at Adidas know more about making footballs than the German World Cup squad.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartan Monkey Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) Nae offence phart, but you've come across as a bit of a phanny here. Just my 2p. I think Tartan_Monkey has been perfectly fair and open and it's you that's taken the aggresive stance/tone. Weird. Thanks. Just trying to give some insight into an industry that lots of people don't know about, but use every day. Not trying to pick fights, be a knob or fall out with anyone. Oh and by the way, several of my friends are engineers. Civil engineers, one is a PhD, aeronautical engineers, aircraft engineers and building engineers. Edited March 27, 2015 by Tartan Monkey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 It's two very deifferent disciplines you're comparing though. Like saying the engineers at Adidas know more about making footballs than the German World Cup squad.... indeed, but still true is it not? Are you arguing that German world cup squad know more engineers at Adidas? i'm saying adidas know the other person is saying the German world cup squad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnyTJS Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Thanks. Just trying to give some insight into an industry that lots of people don't know about, but use every day. Not trying to pick fights, be a knob or fall out with anyone. Aye, it's been good to read your views. Much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartan Monkey Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Aye, it's been good to read your views. Much appreciated. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Nae offence phart, but you've come across as a bit of a phanny here. Just my 2p. I think Tartan_Monkey has been perfectly fair and open and it's you that's taken the aggresive stance/tone. Weird. That's fine, my first priority is to be correct, not endear myself to the individual sentiments of strangers on the board. My stance is: it is harder to engineer a plane than it is to pilot it, and engineers know more about un-manned flight than pilots. I've stated it several times, if you find it aggressive then fair enough. I find it correct which is the thing that matters most to me, and since it's me writing it, probably best i attend to my needs rather than anyone elses. In the course of being correct on this board about a plethora of subjects i've been accused of being a phanny, it never bothered me in 2003 when i joined and it doesn't now. I don't doubt i come across as a phanny, but for me best be a fanny and right, than fair and open and wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Aye, it's been good to read your views. Much appreciated. What new things did you learn that you did not know before regarding the flight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) indeed, but still true is it not? Are you arguing that German world cup squad know more engineers at Adidas? i'm saying adidas know the other person is saying the German world cup squad. You've lost me a bit there but I see your other quote now... I'm saying that building a plane is harder than flying it, and engineers know more about un-manned flight than pilots. TM says they are both difficult but one isn't more difficult than the other. I've tried to back this up pointing out i can fly a plane after 45 hours experience and passing multiple choice examinations, while it takes much longer to become proficient in engineering. Engineering is a hugely varied subject, nobody could be proficient in all of it. You could replace the pilots with engineers but if you wanted them to have complete knowledge of what was going on half the plane would need to be taken up with them. eg. Airbus have office loads of engineers just looking at how nuts and bolts perform. As part of an airline pilot's training and working day they will be doing engineering work with the systems on their aircraft, they are part engineers in their own right. Flying takes a completely different skillset though. I've an engineering degree and many years industrial experience but I wouldn't ever want to take on the responsibility of being a commercial pilot... Edited March 27, 2015 by Toepoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) You've lost me a bit there but I see your other quote now... Engineering is a hugely varied subject, nobody could be proficient in all of it. You could replace the pilots with engineers but if you wanted them to have complete knowledge of what was going on half the plane would need to be taken up with them. eg. Airbus have office loads of engineers just looking at how nuts and bolts perform. As part of an airline pilots training and working day they will be doing engineering work with the systems on their aircraft, they are part engineers in their own right. Flying takes a completely different skillset though. I've an engineering degree and many years industrial experience but I wouldn't ever want to take on the responsibility of being a commercial pilot... So you're saying it is harder to pilot a plane than build one? i'm looking for the final answer not the working. I was landing and taking off in a plane with another pilot after 20 hours, i wasn't sitting with the post docs building their new laser after freshers week. Edited March 27, 2015 by phart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartan Monkey Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 What new things did you learn that you did not know before regarding the flight? In all seriousness, what is it I've done to offend you? Is it me personally that you don't like or is it pilots in general? You are spouting your opinion as fact and shouting down everyone who disagrees. That's a very arrogant position to take. You have also accused me of either lying about my training or not remembering what I had to do to gain my qualifications. You tried to contradict me with information that was incorrect and you are trying to make me look like I don't know what I'm talking about. Exactly what field of engineering do you specialise in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 So you're saying it is harder to pilot a plane than build one? i'm looking for the final answer not the working. I was landing and taking off in a plane with another pilot after 20 hours, i wasn't sitting with the post docs building their new laser after freshers week. ran out of time to edit I'm genuinely surprised the proposition it's harder to create a plane than it is to fly one, and engineers who design unmanned flights know more than the pilots about it, is seemingly a hard concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toepoke Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 So you're saying it is harder to pilot a plane than build one? i'm looking for the final answer not the working. I'm saying it's a difficult comparison to make. Is it harder to be a brain surgeon or a concert pianist?.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tartan Monkey Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 So you're saying it is harder to pilot a plane than build one? i'm looking for the final answer not the working. I was landing and taking off in a plane with another pilot after 20 hours, i wasn't sitting with the post docs building their new laser after freshers week. When did you go solo then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonnyTJS Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) What new things did you learn that you did not know before regarding the flight? Well, a hell of a lot more about the exams required for a start... Why do you care what I learnt? It's got nowt to do with your apparent interest in the relative difficulties of 'engineering' and piloting an aircraft (which is a meaningless comparison anyway unless the terms are satisfactorily defined, which they haven't been). Edited March 27, 2015 by DonnyTJS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 In all seriousness, what is it I've done to offend you? Is it me personally that you don't like or is it pilots in general? You are spouting your opinion as fact and shouting down everyone who disagrees. That's a very arrogant position to take. You have also accused me of either lying about my training or not remembering what I had to do to gain my qualifications. You tried to contradict me with information that was incorrect and you are trying to make me look like I don't know what I'm talking about. Exactly what field of engineering do you specialise in? I'm not offended. Do you not remember me saying earlier i have 5 or 6 friends who are pilots? I have no feelings to you, although this maudlin is a wee bit uncomfortable for me to deal with wheni was asking Donny a question and you suddenly burst in thinking you've offended me and i hate pilots and i'm shouting while typing and accused you of lying, none of which have a basis in truth. Auld Reekie, is this aggressiveness? Can you point out by quoting my words where i have accused you of lying? You won't be able to because it only exists in your mind, but please try. All i'm saying is the engineers who designed the planes you fly have a harder job and know more than you about how viable un-manned flight is, the same contention that UPROAR made. You agreed to disagree with him, how about offering the same courtesy to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auld_Reekie Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 hell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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