The group is bawbagged

[irish]

@ger intae them

If there was some Englishman that happened to be the most suitable out of current available choices for the managerial position of the Socttish National Team, then it would be absolute childishness and complete nonsense to reject him because he happens to be English. 

The implication of "Never having one of your rivals" nationalites managing your team implicates the perosn would not be professional and would somehow have England's national football team's interests at heart. That's insane and very narrow minded.

Jack Charlton is the main reason we have a 32 year unbeaten record against England so to limit yourself to your own prejudice of England as a rival is petty stuff tbh. 

Edited February 14, 2017 by irish

[ger intae them]

Lots of rivalries are petty... & probably childish, but kicking a ball around and trying to get it in a net could also be described as childish... that's just the way it is, but we all follow that game so i see no problem with completely rejecting a potential manager on the basis of him being English.

Wur Jackie making the republic successful was obviously happy times and well celebrated in the south of ireland, but it must come with a slight tang of regret that a proper Irishman (as per FIFA regs) wasn't able to lead the team? It would for me.

[ErsatzThistle]

3 hours ago, ger intae them said:

its not anglophobia, it's basic "never have your no.1 rivals" (sorry, i honestly don't want to start that never-ending debate about england as our no.1 rivals) in charge of your team...... it's quite simple, and probably very old fashioned. however, this does not mean having a closed mind to new methods and ideas being brought to bear in scotland (time will tell, and unique background but cathro could hopefully be a start?).

I do see scotland as some special case 'cos it's my "case", but I couldn't care less how that is seen elsewhere in the world ..... why is that important?

Other nations cast off such ridiculous xenophobic attitudes and started hiring foreigners because they are foreigners and actually started making a success of it. We should do the same. 

Again, You've conveniently ignored the success of Jack Charlton across the water. They even made him an honorary citizen he did such good a job. 

It's been pretty much an open secret for the last few months that the SFA are considering Michael O'Neill as Strachan's successor anyway so might you may have no choice but to accept a non-Scottish manager soon.

And besides the present Scottish candidates for the job are extremely uninspiring - McInnes, Moyes, Freedman, Clarke, Irvine........

Also, anyone who seriously thinks for a split second that Alex Ferguson, Walter Smith or Alex McLeish would want to take charge of Scotland again - is in need of a brain transplant.

8 minutes ago, irish said:

@ger intae them

If there was some Englishman that happened to be the most suitable out of current available choices for the managerial position of the Socttish National Team, then it would be absolute childishness and complete nonsense to reject him because he happens to be English. 

The implication of "Never having one of your rivals" nationalites managing your team implicates the perosn would not be professional and would somehow have England's national football team's interests at heart. That's insane and very narrow minded.

Jack Charlton is the main reason we have a 32 year unbeaten record against England so to limit yourself to your own prejudice of England as a rival is petty stuff tbh. 

Fantastic post there Irish 

Unfortunately some in Scotland today kid themselves on that the world still regards us a major player (they haven't for 40-50 years now and with good reason) and that we are due some kind of entitlement because of our history (precisely zero people outwith Scotland care about that).

Then there are those who have the rose tinted specs on with regard to the teams of yesteryear and refuse to remember the mistakes, the calamities which these teams were involved in - "och, we were just unlucky ! ", "aye, but the ref was blind !", "they dirty foreign cünts have it in for us so they dae" .........

Maybe if we'd had a little bit of foreign influence during the 1950s, 60s and 70s when we really did have some truly gifted, top quality players then we might have bloody well got beyond the group stages at least once.

We've been stewing in our own deluded, self important juices for decades now. Wake up Scotland and embrace new people, new methods, new ideas. 

My Dad actually met Charlton at the 1996 World Cup in Mexico, not long after Charlton had started off as Ireland's manager, couldn't speak more highly of him. Charlton had got caught up in a big crowd of Scotland fans outside one of the stadiums with the rain pouring down but was happy to sign autographs, pose for pictures and have a bit of banter about the 1966 World Cup 

3 minutes ago, ger intae them said:

Lots of rivalries are petty... & probably childish, but kicking a ball around and trying to get it in a net could also be described as childish... that's just the way it is, but we all follow that game so i see no problem with completely rejecting a potential manager on the basis of him being English.

Wur Jackie making the republic successful was obviously happy times and well celebrated in the south of ireland, but it must come with a slight tang of regret that a proper Irishman (as per FIFA regs) wasn't able to lead the team? It would for me.

Oh dear God........... 

What country is the "South of Ireland" ? Can't find that on any map. The Republic of Ireland is it's proper name 

[irish]

2 minutes ago, ger intae them said:

Lots of rivalries are petty... & probably childish, but kicking a ball around and trying to get it in a net could also be described as childish... that's just the way it is, but we all follow that game so i see no problem with completely rejecting a potential manager on the basis of him being English.

Wur Jackie making the republic successful was obviously happy times and well celebrated in the south of ireland, but it must come with a slight tang of regret that a proper Irishman (as per FIFA regs) wasn't able to lead the team? It would for me.

Jesus Christ 

You really need to get out more mate 

Ah yes, I'll go to my deathbed sickened that it wasn't a "proper Irishman" that gave us the most successful years and transformed us from nothing to one of the most difficult teams to beat in Europe.

 

[irish]

15 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

 

Oh dear God........... 

What country is the "South of Ireland" ? Can't find that on any map. The Republic of Ireland is it's proper name 

To be fair, I don't think there was anything mean't by ger intae them's post. If you've one team called Northern Ireland, it's understandable someone not too familiar with Ireland would say south of Ireland when referring to the Republic. 

Jack is a class act. . What can I say

[LewisEDI]

4 hours ago, ger intae them said:

its not anglophobia, it's basic "never have your no.1 rivals" (sorry, i honestly don't want to start that never-ending debate about england as our no.1 rivals) in charge of your team...... it's quite simple, and probably very old fashioned. however, this does not mean having a closed mind to new methods and ideas being brought to bear in scotland (time will tell, and unique background but cathro could hopefully be a start?).

I do see scotland as some special case 'cos it's my "case", but I couldn't care less how that is seen elsewhere in the world ..... why is that important?

i wouldn't mind having a foreign manager at all as long as it wasn't from the home countries or ireland

[irish]

 

1 minute ago, LewisEDI said:

i wouldn't mind having a foreign manager at all as long as it wasn't from the home countries or ireland

Why? 

Look at how both ourselves and Northern Ireland have done with two Irish managers by qualifying and giving a good account of ourselves at the Euros, not to mention Chris Coleman with Wales. Like him or not Wales beat Belgium twice in a vital qualifier and a quarter final plus a draw away in the qualifying. It's ridiculous to shut yourself off from any prospective candidate from the UK or Ireland. The proof is in the pudding. 

[ErsatzThistle]

9 minutes ago, irish said:

To be fair, I don't think there was anything mean't by ger intae them's post. If you've one team called Northern Ireland, it's understandable someone not too familiar with Ireland would say south of Ireland when referring to the Republic. 

Jack is a class act. . What can I say

Fair enough then.

My Dad said big JC was top notch, very down to earth and at home with the ordinary supporters. They actually met him again at the airport bar coming back, had everyone spellbound with his stories about Billy Bremner and Peter Lorimer's antics.

Charlton's appointment by FAI took a lot of balls too when you consider what a tense period in time it was for British-Irish relations with the chaos that the six counties were in.

[irish]

1 minute ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Fair enough then.

My Dad said big JC was top notch, very down to earth and at home with the ordinary supporters. They actually met him again at the airport bar coming back, had everyone spellbound with his stories about Billy Bremner and Peter Lorimer's antics.

Charlton's appointment by FAI took a lot of balls too when you consider what a tense period in time it was for British-Irish relations with the chaos that the six counties were in.

Bob Paisley originally got the most votes to be the Irish manager but then some FA committee members changed their votes afaik but the political situation in Northern Ireland had no impact on him being appointed being honest with you. There was some anti-English sentiment from a minuscule of the support if at all (I think there may have been some banner that we didn't want 'union jack' at one of his first games but not sure either) . The FAI proved to be right to hire him but only in hindsight as opposed to any wisdom involved.

 Jack was lucky a little bit it has to be said in getting us to Euro 88 thanks to that beautiful specimen of a man, Gary MacKay 

[aaid]

14 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Charlton's appointment by FAI took a lot of balls too when you consider what a tense period in time it was for British-Irish relations with the chaos that the six counties were in.

You really do live in a fantasy land at times.  The vast majority of people in the Republic of Ireland wouldn't have thought twice about them appointing Charlton as manager.   

[Que Sera Sera]

On 13/02/2017 at 6:42 PM, ErsatzThistle said:

Even if you take away his record with Iceland, Lagerback's record with Sweden and Nigeria was very good.

It may hurt some people to read this but Scotland are not a unique nation. We are not respected throughout the world anymore, hard as that may be for some people to accept. Nobody gives a flying feck either about "oor role in inventing the game" and rightly so, it was a bloody long time ago.

Our pathetic FA always has to think small and appoint "one of our ain" to the job. There is too much of this damaging insular thinking, it's been holding us back for ages. It's time for us to go out and meet the big bad world.

Fück the crippling, outdated traditions. A foreigner for me. And I'd be over the moon with an Englishman managing Scotland for a start. 

And what happened to LeGuen or indeed any other Old Firm manager is irrelevant. Another issue entirely.

The Republic of Ireland did alright with an Englishman and then an Italian in charge of them. And I very much doubt whether Jack Charlton and Giovanni Trapattoni "understood" the Irish national team's players, mentality, traditional tactics and history when they took charge of them.

In fact being "outsiders" probably helped them. The difference between Berti Vogts, Jack Charlton and Giovanni Trapattoni is that the latter two had confidence in themselves and worked out good systems to suit their players. Vogts in truth was never confident and had a scatterbrain approach to team selection and tactics. It's just about choosing the right man.

Because we got burned once before doesn't mean we should never again consider a foreign manager.

Agree about people from other countries not respecting Scotland. Most know that we havnae qualified in ages, even if they cannae be as specific as '98. Many even think we're a rugby nation because we beat Japan, USA and Samoa. A foriegn mate said that even Finland were better than Scotland a few years ago, quite an insult!

 

No English manager thanks. It's bad enough having hunners of English players and fans.

 

I wanted Nevio Scala to get the job instead of Vogts.

 

23 hours ago, LewisEDI said:

and who can forget, "i know all about the german team, but maybe they dont know about kevin harper?" who says the germans dont have humor !

 

 

To be fair, he was probably the best we had in terms of offering something a bit different/producing something out of nothing. He was pacey as well. Vogts didn't even put him on in the end.

 

1 hour ago, irish said:

@ger intae them

If there was some Englishman that happened to be the most suitable out of current available choices for the managerial position of the Socttish National Team, then it would be absolute childishness and complete nonsense to reject him because he happens to be English. 

The implication of "Never having one of your rivals" nationalites managing your team implicates the perosn would not be professional and would somehow have England's national football team's interests at heart. That's insane and very narrow minded.

Jack Charlton is the main reason we have a 32 year unbeaten record against England so to limit yourself to your own prejudice of England as a rival is petty stuff tbh. 

Englishmen are bad enough at managing England thanks very much.

58 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

And besides the present Scottish candidates for the job are extremely uninspiring - McInnes, Moyes, Freedman, Clarke, Irvine........
 

If Strachan goes, I'd be happy with McInnes, Moyes or Clarke out of those.

 

24 minutes ago, irish said:

 

Why? 

Look at how both ourselves and Northern Ireland have done with two Irish managers by qualifying and giving a good account of ourselves at the Euros, not to mention Chris Coleman with Wales. Like him or not Wales beat Belgium twice in a vital qualifier and a quarter final plus a draw away in the qualifying. It's ridiculous to shut yourself off from any prospective candidate from the UK or Ireland. The proof is in the pudding. 

You seem to be ignoring the blindingly obvious. Ireland, Wales and Northern Ireland have all done well recently with one of their own as manager.

 

 

 

 

 

[ErsatzThistle]

Just now, aaid said:

You really do live in a fantasy land at times.  The vast majority of people in the Republic of Ireland wouldn't have thought twice about them appointing Charlton as manager.   

Typically charming post aaid. I wasn't alive at the time old bean so I'll defer to Irish rather than you ok ?

Would you like to join me though in holding out hope that a foreigner (perhaps an Englishman) will succeed Strachan as opposed to the hopeless and undeserving native candidates.? 

You know I actually enjoy reading a lot of your posts on political matters as it happens, so why don't you let go this sad obsession with me there's a good fellow. I'm not going to give you the reaction your clearly after 

2 minutes ago, Que Sera Sera said:

No English manager thanks. It's bad enough having hunners of English players and fans.

English fans ?

In the Scotland support ?

I'm confused.

[LewisEDI]

47 minutes ago, irish said:

 

Why? 

Look at how both ourselves and Northern Ireland have done with two Irish managers by qualifying and giving a good account of ourselves at the Euros, not to mention Chris Coleman with Wales. Like him or not Wales beat Belgium twice in a vital qualifier and a quarter final plus a draw away in the qualifying. It's ridiculous to shut yourself off from any prospective candidate from the UK or Ireland. The proof is in the pudding. 

I would be fine with michael o'neil actually, like the guy and he lives in scotland and has spent a large part of his career in scotland. if martin o'neil or coleman were in charge i wouldnt be going to games, no chance. cant stand either of them.

[irish]

Okay Que Sera Sera you can stick to your monoracial 'one of your own' managerial solutions to Scotland's current predicament but how about judging any prospective future managers for Scotland on their actual record and achievements no matter where they're from? 

An Englishman replaced an Irishman  as our national team manager and subsequently proved to be our most successful one so far.

An Italian man replaced an Irishman who wasn't fit for the job who qualified us for a Euros and almost the world cup. Believe me 'one of your own' isn't necessarily the solution.   

Bad enough having hunners of English players and fans? Are you criticising the English born players that play for Scotland? What English fans?

[LewisEDI]

1 minute ago, irish said:

What English fans?

[ErsatzThistle]

1 minute ago, LewisEDI said:

Aye, very good.

Stewart's father was a Scot so that's good enough for me.

The last man to score a match winning Scottish goal against England was an "Englishman" by some peoples impossible standards.

[LewisEDI]

9 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Aye, very good.

Stewart's father was a Scot so that's good enough for me.

The last man to score a match winning Scottish goal against England was an "Englishman" by some peoples impossible standards.

i actually love the old rogue apart from his pish about greeting about celtic beating barcelona because he was thinking about his dad, who was a hibs fan from leith.

as for "winning" goal against england, clutching at straws classing that as victory we got beat 2-1 over the 2 legs and didn't qualify, certainly was the worst i've ever felt after a "win"

i've no problem with 2nd generation scots, i could have been one myself and spent 10 years growing up in england before moving back

Edited February 15, 2017 by LewisEDI

[ErsatzThistle]

5 minutes ago, LewisEDI said:

i actually love the old rogue apart from his pish about greeting about celtic beating barcelona because he was thinking about his dad, who was a hibs fan from leith.

as for "winning" goal against england, clutching at straws classing that as victory we got beat 2-1 over the 2 legs and didn't qualify, certainly was the worst i've ever felt after a "win"

i've no problem with 2nd generation scots, i could have been one myself and spent 10 years growing up in england before moving back

Excellent then 

I did stress that Hutchison's goal was a match winner (which it was) not a tie winner (which it unfortunately wasn't).

[irish]

44 minutes ago, aaid said:

You really do live in a fantasy land at times.  The vast majority of people in the Republic of Ireland wouldn't have thought twice about them appointing Charlton as manager.   

Probably like yourself I'm judging retrospectively, but I think it would have been uncertainty rather than being uniform in wanting Jack as manager. There was definitely no national outcry for him tbh. From what I read of it and going by my auld fella too who followed Ireland in the bad old days, his appointment was met with a general neutrality amongst the Irish football public if anything and not really knowing what to expect. 

There are a few other Irish posters on here who may be of more mature years than my good-self who might be able to give a more accurate picture than I can  

[irish]

40 minutes ago, LewisEDI said:

i actually love the old rogue apart from his pish about greeting about celtic beating barcelona because he was thinking about his dad, who was a hibs fan from leith.

as for "winning" goal against england, clutching at straws classing that as victory we got beat 2-1 over the 2 legs and didn't qualify, certainly was the worst i've ever felt after a "win"

i've no problem with 2nd generation scots, i could have been one myself and spent 10 years growing up in england before moving back

Get a life 

[LewisEDI]

6 minutes ago, irish said:

Get a life 

ehh? expand

Edited February 15, 2017 by LewisEDI

[irish]

58 minutes ago, LewisEDI said:

I would be fine with michael o'neil actually, like the guy and he lives in scotland and has spent a large part of his career in scotland. if martin o'neil or coleman were in charge i wouldnt be going to games, no chance. cant stand either of them.

 

Well as long as it suits Captain Pettyness of the Pettyness Express 

Also very relieved to see Michael O'Neill has passed your residency standards.

I cannot stand or stomach Kenny Dalglish, as I think he's a needlessly rude/thick/sharp arsehole but if he qualified Ireland for world cup/euros then I'd be over the moon with his achievement and would leave my personal feelings towards him to one side seeing as he got us to a major tournament.  

[LewisEDI]

6 minutes ago, irish said:

 

Well as long as it suits Captain Pettyness of the Pettyness Express 

Also very relieved to see Michael O'Neill has passed your residency standards.

I cannot stand or stomach Kenny Dalglish, as I think he's a needlessly rude/thick/sharp arsehole but if he qualified Ireland for world cup/euros then I'd be over the moon with his achievement and would leave my personal feelings towards him to one side seeing as he got us to a major tournament.  

aye ok then so if martin o'neil or coleman managed scotland we'd have that in the bag would we? hands up on the forum if you are scottish and would want either of them to be our manager

and please explain how i need to get a life because i'm happy to have 2nd generational scots represent scotland

Edited February 15, 2017 by LewisEDI

[irish]

8 hours ago, LewisEDI said:

aye ok then so if martin o'neil or coleman managed scotland we'd have that in the bag would we? hands up on the forum if you are scottish and would want either of them to be our manager

and please explain how i need to get a life because i'm happy to have 2nd generational scots represent scotland

This is probably the most embarrassing and childish post I've ever seen on here.  

[aaid]

8 hours ago, irish said:

Probably like yourself I'm judging retrospectively, but I think it would have been uncertainty rather than being uniform in wanting Jack as manager. There was definitely no national outcry for him tbh. From what I read of it and going by my auld fella too who followed Ireland in the bad old days, his appointment was met with a general neutrality amongst the Irish football public if anything and not really knowing what to expect. 

There are a few other Irish posters on here who may be of more mature years than my good-self who might be able to give a more accurate picture than I can  

Clearly I wasn't following the detail of The Irish National team any closer in 1986 than I am today.  I can understand why there may well have been a certain level of ambivalence at his appointment   He wasn't exactly a top drawer appointment but then the ROI were not exactly box office themselves at the time, much like we are today  

My point was about the ridiculous assertion that people in the Repbulic of Ireland wouldn't have given a toss about employing an English manager based on whatever the state politics.  

I worked in Dublin in 1990/91, and then as I suspect now, the vast majority of people supported an English League team.  That's not as a "second" team but the team they'd define themselves as a supporter of.  Mostly it would be Liverpool, Man Utd or Arsenal but I met supporters of a lot of English clubs.   Also at that time you'd struggle to meet anyone who defined themselves as a Celtic fan.  I remember discussing it with a mate who described Dublin Celitc fans as Gurriers.

Irish football fans - outside the lunatic "McGlashan" firing wouldn't have given a thought to politics as regards the appointment.

Also, at that time - might be different now - the vast majority of people while having a sympathy with the Nationalists in the North, really didn't have a hardline Republican viewpoint and were anti-conflict.   Sinn Fein in the South were a but of a joke party at that time and - I think - were only polling at around 5%.  I'm not sure they had many, if at all any, TDs.