The Livi Programme

[bruce778]

Bruce what we are saying is that once incorporated the club is indistinguishable from the company. The company was liquidated and so was the club. The assets were sold off to pay the creditors and bought by a new business. The old business and company as they were Indistinct were liquidated.

You are using the words company and business interchangeably. You do realise there is a difference between the two?

The club is distinguishable from the company. There is absolutely no basis for your assertion that they are indistinguishable.

The company is currently in liquidation (has not yet been liquidated). The club was sold by duff and phelps. The liquidators were appointed over the company, not the club. That is self evident from company law and easily checked by looking at the liquidators reports.

Yes the assets were sold (together with the business) to contribute to the creditors' pot. They were bought by a new company, not a new business.

If the old company and the "old business" are indistinguishable, then someone better tell Charles green, duff and phelps and bdo because they all discuss the sale of this business in their reports. They must all be mistaken.....

[EddardStark]

I am not in the same league as Bruce when it comes to destroying Shed's rationale. But some of the info below would be a useful reference.

.

Lord Nimmo Smith/Glennie/SPL:
http://tiny.cc/ojiipw - Extracts from NimmoSmith verdicts stating Rangers FC continues (JPG)
http://tiny.cc/4fgn9w - Lord Nimmo Smith's FIRST report, clarifying Gers as same club (PDF)
http://tiny.cc/fegn9w - Lord Nimmo Smith's SECOND concluding report, further emphasising Gers as same club (PDF)
http://tiny.cc/xn6kqw - SPL CEO Neil Doncaster: "It is an existing club, even though it's a new company" 1 minute in.
http://tiny.cc/0ko6xw - Lord Glennie - distinguishing between company and club

UEFA:
http://tiny.cc/ku8hdx - ASA describing UEFA position: "sporting continuity of club's match record" (JPG)
http://tiny.cc/2o8hdx - UEFA's email: newcoing is "a change to a club's legal form" (JPG)
http://tiny.cc/u8akpw - UEFA Rangers "Scottish Cup" squad (Elgin game) updated 8th Dec 2012 (LINK)
http://tiny.cc/r12kqw - UEFA's updated Scottish Cup squad (JPG)


SFL/SPFL:
http://tiny.cc/8h832w - SPFL Rangers home page - "Founded 1872" - Full trophy list (LINK)
http://tiny.cc/pyyzyw - Derek Longmuir, SFL CEO, congratulating Gers on 140 years.

SFA:

http://tiny.cc/otgn9w - Tom English ECA article stating "The SFA’s response was unambiguous. Different corporate entity but same Rangers"
http://tiny.cc/xn832w - SFA statement - Newco are "the new owners of the Rangers Football Club"
http://tiny.cc/b1kuyw - SFA 2013 Annual Review - RFC "entering liquidation and subsequently accommodated into SFL3"
http://tiny.cc/qdfjqw - SFA's Scottish Cup archive: Rangers FC record continuous into 2013. (JPG)
http://tiny.cc/gt3kqw - SFA Q&A: clarifying status of "Rangers FC" re. Div 3, 4 yrs of accounts, Scottish Cup entry (LINK)
http://tiny.cc/lu3kqw - SFA statement "full membership has been transferred". (LINK)

HMRC:
http://tiny.cc/cryzyw - "the liquidation route does not prejudice the proposed sale of the club. This sale [of Rangers FC] can take place either through a CVA or a liquidation." (LINK)

European Clubs Association:
http://tiny.cc/yw5kqw - "The organisation considers the club?s history to be continuous regardless of the change of company" (LINK)

Advertising Standards Authority:
http://tiny.cc/r3fn9w - Rangers' most successful club claim is rubber-stamped by the ASA (updated with UEFA clarification)

BBC - Independent report by Editorial Standards Committee:
http://tiny.cc/lezzyw - "where.. the BBC had made the distinction between an ?old? and ?new? Rangers.. club as opposed to the ?old? and ?new? company, ..due accuracy had not been achieved."

Malcolm Cohen - BDO Liquidator:
http://tiny.cc/z0u72w - "appointment of liquidators... only the end of the company that ran the club."

Neil Patey - Partner at Ernst and Young:
http://tiny.cc/x8u72w - "a newco in legal terms, but the club is a continution".
http://tiny.cc/0cv72w - Q & A with BBC, many quotes such as Green "bought the club", new owners etc.

Proof of post-liquidation survival precedents:
http://tiny.cc/5jnqqw - Leeds were liquidated/No CVA - KPMG source
http://www.mightyleeds.co.uk/pdf/sea...kpmgletter.pdf - Comprehensive account of Leeds liquidation/CVA failure
http://tiny.cc/7tpqqw - Arbitration case proving Leeds no CVA
http://www.theifo.co.uk/adjudication...llettfinal.pdf - Luton = No CVA (Same as Bournemouth/Rotherham/Leeds)
http://judgmental.org.uk/judgments/E...A_Civ_180.html Crystal Palace were also liquidated.
http://tiny.cc/9xp6xw (PDF) and http://tiny.cc/8cq6xw (JPG) - Portsmouth were also "liquidated" in 2010

Hearts founded 1874? Oldco liquidated/newco formed in 1905.
http://i.cubeupload.com/A4vVCx.jpg - Hearts old company wound up in 1905, newco formed (from official website history!)
http://i.cubeupload.com/P9Cxoa.jpg - Liquidator of Hearts old company detailed in Edinburgh Gazette

And finally....Dermot Desmond:
http://tiny.cc/vqo6xw - "A fantastic club with great history"

Edited October 7, 2014 by EddardStark

[ParisInAKilt]

Always be the Rangers to me, until the next time

[ShedTA]

You are using the words company and business interchangeably. You do realise there is a difference between the two?

The club is distinguishable from the company. There is absolutely no basis for your assertion that they are indistinguishable.

The company is currently in liquidation (has not yet been liquidated). The club was sold by duff and phelps. The liquidators were appointed over the company, not the club. That is self evident from company law and easily checked by looking at the liquidators reports.

Yes the assets were sold (together with the business) to contribute to the creditors' pot. They were bought by a new company, not a new business.

If the old company and the "old business" are indistinguishable, then someone better tell Charles green, duff and phelps and bdo because they all discuss the sale of this business in their reports. They must all be mistaken.....

I am not in the same league as Bruce when it comes to destroying Shed's rationale. But some of the info below would be a useful reference.

.

Lord Nimmo Smith/Glennie/SPL:

http://tiny.cc/ojiipw - Extracts from NimmoSmith verdicts stating Rangers FC continues (JPG)

http://tiny.cc/4fgn9w - Lord Nimmo Smith's FIRST report, clarifying Gers as same club (PDF)

http://tiny.cc/fegn9w - Lord Nimmo Smith's SECOND concluding report, further emphasising Gers as same club (PDF)

http://tiny.cc/xn6kqw - SPL CEO Neil Doncaster: "It is an existing club, even though it's a new company" 1 minute in.

http://tiny.cc/0ko6xw - Lord Glennie - distinguishing between company and club

UEFA:

http://tiny.cc/ku8hdx - ASA describing UEFA position: "sporting continuity of club's match record" (JPG)

http://tiny.cc/2o8hdx - UEFA's email: newcoing is "a change to a club's legal form" (JPG)

http://tiny.cc/u8akpw - UEFA Rangers "Scottish Cup" squad (Elgin game) updated 8th Dec 2012 (LINK)

http://tiny.cc/r12kqw - UEFA's updated Scottish Cup squad (JPG)

SFL/SPFL:

http://tiny.cc/8h832w - SPFL Rangers home page - "Founded 1872" - Full trophy list (LINK)

http://tiny.cc/pyyzyw - Derek Longmuir, SFL CEO, congratulating Gers on 140 years.

SFA:

http://tiny.cc/otgn9w - Tom English ECA article stating "The SFA’s response was unambiguous. Different corporate entity but same Rangers"

http://tiny.cc/xn832w - SFA statement - Newco are "the new owners of the Rangers Football Club"

http://tiny.cc/b1kuyw - SFA 2013 Annual Review - RFC "entering liquidation and subsequently accommodated into SFL3"

http://tiny.cc/qdfjqw - SFA's Scottish Cup archive: Rangers FC record continuous into 2013. (JPG)

http://tiny.cc/gt3kqw - SFA Q&A: clarifying status of "Rangers FC" re. Div 3, 4 yrs of accounts, Scottish Cup entry (LINK)

http://tiny.cc/lu3kqw - SFA statement "full membership has been transferred". (LINK)

HMRC:

http://tiny.cc/cryzyw - "the liquidation route does not prejudice the proposed sale of the club. This sale [of Rangers FC] can take place either through a CVA or a liquidation." (LINK)

European Clubs Association:

http://tiny.cc/yw5kqw - "The organisation considers the club?s history to be continuous regardless of the change of company" (LINK)

Advertising Standards Authority:

http://tiny.cc/r3fn9w - Rangers' most successful club claim is rubber-stamped by the ASA (updated with UEFA clarification)

BBC - Independent report by Editorial Standards Committee:

http://tiny.cc/lezzyw - "where.. the BBC had made the distinction between an ?old? and ?new? Rangers.. club as opposed to the ?old? and ?new? company, ..due accuracy had not been achieved."

Malcolm Cohen - BDO Liquidator:

http://tiny.cc/z0u72w - "appointment of liquidators... only the end of the company that ran the club."

Neil Patey - Partner at Ernst and Young:

http://tiny.cc/x8u72w - "a newco in legal terms, but the club is a continution".

http://tiny.cc/0cv72w - Q & A with BBC, many quotes such as Green "bought the club", new owners etc.

Proof of post-liquidation survival precedents:

http://tiny.cc/5jnqqw - Leeds were liquidated/No CVA - KPMG source

http://www.mightyleeds.co.uk/pdf/sea...kpmgletter.pdf - Comprehensive account of Leeds liquidation/CVA failure

http://tiny.cc/7tpqqw - Arbitration case proving Leeds no CVA

http://www.theifo.co.uk/adjudication...llettfinal.pdf - Luton = No CVA (Same as Bournemouth/Rotherham/Leeds)

http://judgmental.org.uk/judgments/E...A_Civ_180.html Crystal Palace were also liquidated.

http://tiny.cc/9xp6xw (PDF) and http://tiny.cc/8cq6xw (JPG) - Portsmouth were also "liquidated" in 2010

Hearts founded 1874? Oldco liquidated/newco formed in 1905.

http://i.cubeupload.com/A4vVCx.jpg - Hearts old company wound up in 1905, newco formed (from official website history!)

http://i.cubeupload.com/P9Cxoa.jpg - Liquidator of Hearts old company detailed in Edinburgh Gazette

And finally....Dermot Desmond:

http://tiny.cc/vqo6xw - "A fantastic club with great history"

This is all very informative stuff guys. So if it was the same club then why did Sevco Scotland play Brechin on 28th July 2012? if it is the same club, who the f&ck were the team sevco scotland? They were the new club set up and played as sevco until given permission to use the rangers name purchased from the deid club.

[peever1745]

Why did Airdrieonians and Gretna not keep their club history? Is it only Rangers that can go into liquidation and rise again keeping their club history?This is just ridiculious.Its time to accept Glasgow Rangers died in 2012 end of.

[Fred_Zeppelin]

You are using the words company and business interchangeably. You do realise there is a difference between the two?

The club is distinguishable from the company. There is absolutely no basis for your assertion that they are indistinguishable.

The company is currently in liquidation (has not yet been liquidated). The club was sold by duff and phelps. The liquidators were appointed over the company, not the club. That is self evident from company law and easily checked by looking at the liquidators reports.

Yes the assets were sold (together with the business) to contribute to the creditors' pot. They were bought by a new company, not a new business.

If the old company and the "old business" are indistinguishable, then someone better tell Charles green, duff and phelps and bdo because they all discuss the sale of this business in their reports. They must all be mistaken.....

I am not in the same league as Bruce when it comes to destroying Shed's rationale. But some of the info below would be a useful reference.

.

Lord Nimmo Smith/Glennie/SPL:

http://tiny.cc/ojiipw - Extracts from NimmoSmith verdicts stating Rangers FC continues (JPG)

http://tiny.cc/4fgn9w - Lord Nimmo Smith's FIRST report, clarifying Gers as same club (PDF)

http://tiny.cc/fegn9w - Lord Nimmo Smith's SECOND concluding report, further emphasising Gers as same club (PDF)

http://tiny.cc/xn6kqw - SPL CEO Neil Doncaster: "It is an existing club, even though it's a new company" 1 minute in.

http://tiny.cc/0ko6xw - Lord Glennie - distinguishing between company and club

UEFA:

http://tiny.cc/ku8hdx - ASA describing UEFA position: "sporting continuity of club's match record" (JPG)

http://tiny.cc/2o8hdx - UEFA's email: newcoing is "a change to a club's legal form" (JPG)

http://tiny.cc/u8akpw - UEFA Rangers "Scottish Cup" squad (Elgin game) updated 8th Dec 2012 (LINK)

http://tiny.cc/r12kqw - UEFA's updated Scottish Cup squad (JPG)

SFL/SPFL:

http://tiny.cc/8h832w - SPFL Rangers home page - "Founded 1872" - Full trophy list (LINK)

http://tiny.cc/pyyzyw - Derek Longmuir, SFL CEO, congratulating Gers on 140 years.

SFA:

http://tiny.cc/otgn9w - Tom English ECA article stating "The SFA’s response was unambiguous. Different corporate entity but same Rangers"

http://tiny.cc/xn832w - SFA statement - Newco are "the new owners of the Rangers Football Club"

http://tiny.cc/b1kuyw - SFA 2013 Annual Review - RFC "entering liquidation and subsequently accommodated into SFL3"

http://tiny.cc/qdfjqw - SFA's Scottish Cup archive: Rangers FC record continuous into 2013. (JPG)

http://tiny.cc/gt3kqw - SFA Q&A: clarifying status of "Rangers FC" re. Div 3, 4 yrs of accounts, Scottish Cup entry (LINK)

http://tiny.cc/lu3kqw - SFA statement "full membership has been transferred". (LINK)

HMRC:

http://tiny.cc/cryzyw - "the liquidation route does not prejudice the proposed sale of the club. This sale [of Rangers FC] can take place either through a CVA or a liquidation." (LINK)

European Clubs Association:

http://tiny.cc/yw5kqw - "The organisation considers the club?s history to be continuous regardless of the change of company" (LINK)

Advertising Standards Authority:

http://tiny.cc/r3fn9w - Rangers' most successful club claim is rubber-stamped by the ASA (updated with UEFA clarification)

BBC - Independent report by Editorial Standards Committee:

http://tiny.cc/lezzyw - "where.. the BBC had made the distinction between an ?old? and ?new? Rangers.. club as opposed to the ?old? and ?new? company, ..due accuracy had not been achieved."

Malcolm Cohen - BDO Liquidator:

http://tiny.cc/z0u72w - "appointment of liquidators... only the end of the company that ran the club."

Neil Patey - Partner at Ernst and Young:

http://tiny.cc/x8u72w - "a newco in legal terms, but the club is a continution".

http://tiny.cc/0cv72w - Q & A with BBC, many quotes such as Green "bought the club", new owners etc.

Proof of post-liquidation survival precedents:

http://tiny.cc/5jnqqw - Leeds were liquidated/No CVA - KPMG source

http://www.mightyleeds.co.uk/pdf/sea...kpmgletter.pdf - Comprehensive account of Leeds liquidation/CVA failure

http://tiny.cc/7tpqqw - Arbitration case proving Leeds no CVA

http://www.theifo.co.uk/adjudication...llettfinal.pdf - Luton = No CVA (Same as Bournemouth/Rotherham/Leeds)

http://judgmental.org.uk/judgments/E...A_Civ_180.html Crystal Palace were also liquidated.

http://tiny.cc/9xp6xw (PDF) and http://tiny.cc/8cq6xw (JPG) - Portsmouth were also "liquidated" in 2010

Hearts founded 1874? Oldco liquidated/newco formed in 1905.

http://i.cubeupload.com/A4vVCx.jpg - Hearts old company wound up in 1905, newco formed (from official website history!)

http://i.cubeupload.com/P9Cxoa.jpg - Liquidator of Hearts old company detailed in Edinburgh Gazette

And finally....Dermot Desmond:

http://tiny.cc/vqo6xw - "A fantastic club with great history"

My work is done.

[ShedTA]

Why did Airdrieonians and Gretna not keep their club history? Is it only Rangers that can go into liquidation and rise again keeping their club history?This is just ridiculious.Its time to accept Glasgow Rangers died in 2012 end of.

The ironic thing is that they cling to this same club myth and it has brought them nothing but shite. If they had accepted death, refused to buy the messiah greens bullshit same club stuff they could be in a much better place by now.

[dipped flake]

Why did Airdrieonians and Gretna not keep their club history? Is it only Rangers that can go into liquidation and rise again keeping their club history?This is just ridiculious.Its time to accept Glasgow Rangers died in 2012 end of.

you are correct but, as long as it annoys the rangers fans so much no need to end the argument

[thistle do nicely]

Why did Airdrieonians and Gretna not keep their club history? Is it only Rangers that can go into liquidation and rise again keeping their club history?This is just ridiculious.Its time to accept Glasgow Rangers died in 2012 end of.

We were not allegedly not voted/allowed back in the league as it would set a precedent for clubs going bust and restarting with a clean slate. (Or Gretna did some dirty dealings, who can tell). We are actually clydebank with a changed name. That is why we have no history.

[Debian]

My work is done.

Maybe you can give me that creditors list... you know the updated one, and not the original one you provided before

[Fred_Zeppelin]

Maybe you can give me that creditors list... you know the updated one, and not the original one you provided before

Just take out the ones you claim to have paid and let me know how many millions you still owe.

[ShedTA]

you are correct but, as long as it annoys the rangers fans so much no need to end the argument

The thing is you will never get complete agreement on this. But as in much of life, with things like this, regardless of all the legal/business stuff that is spouted, perception tends to dictate reality.

And in that respect for the majority of football fans in Scotland, they're deid.

[Debian]

Just take out the ones you claim to have paid and let me know how many millions you still owe.

All talk No answers. Cheers Dec

[Debian]

The thing is you will never get complete agreement on this. But as in much of life, with things like this, regardless of all the legal/business stuff that is spouted, perception tends to dictate reality.

And in that respect for the majority of football fans in Scotland, they're deid.

The 'majority' are then incorrect.?

[Fred_Zeppelin]

All talk No answers. Cheers Dec

The answer's there, Rangers went into liquidation owing tens of millions of pounds, that's the facts, deny them if you like but that's what happened.

[jailender]

If you scroll through the list, and remove all football debts, and debts of less than £1000, there is still a sh*t load of money which presumably was never paid, going by Debian's criteria for what was paid.

[Debian]

The answer's there, Rangers went into liquidation owing tens of millions of pounds, that's the facts, deny them if you like but that's what happened.

Who denied the company went in to it. I haven't.

I'm asking for you to provide a list. You provided an original list which we all know is no longer correct that you provided as fact.

[ParisInAKilt]

The gift that keeps on giving. Thank you (the) Rangers

[Debian]

If you scroll through the list, and remove all football debts, and debts of less than £1000, there is still a sh*t load of money which presumably was never paid, going by Debian's criteria for what was paid.

If you also remove Ticketus and the larger HMRC debts you then start to get something closer.

It still doesn't condone it but at least it's more of a fact than is being peddled.

[Fred_Zeppelin]

If you also remove Ticketus and the larger HMRC debts you then start to get something closer.

It still doesn't condone it but at least it's more of a fact than is being peddled.

Why would you remove HMRC debts?

[hannibal smith]

Why would you remove HMRC debts?

Because that was due by the old company

Oh wait a minute

[Debian]

Why would you remove HMRC debts?

Forgive me if I'm wrong but the Oldco won the Big Tax case so for the time being you'd remove it as it's not currently an active liability.

[Debian]

Because that was due by the old company

Oh wait a minute

Are you broken?

[Fred_Zeppelin]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but the Oldco won the Big Tax case so for the time being you'd remove it as it's not currently an active liability.

Partially won.

There was still something like £14m owed due to Rangers Football Club not paying VAT & PAYE.

[Debian]

Partially won.

There was still something like £14m owed due to Rangers Football Club not paying VAT & PAYE.

That's why I said BTC.