Research Sector

[Johnny_Ham]

http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2014/sep/research-scares-dismissed-university-principal

Is anyone involved in this sector?

I am particularly interested to know if any of the major scientific funding sources (eg Wellcome Trust) have suggested their support of academics/projects in an independent Scotland would change.

The reason I ask is that this has been raised with me by a (currently) No voter and I haven't found any direct information from the Wellcome Trust/Research Councils about funding post-Yes.

Anyone in the know?

[biffer]

I work in the education / research sector. There's a reasonable amount of concern among the majority of people, as this is one of the few areas where we get out more than we put in. However, a short discussion with them usually lets them see pros and cons on both sides.

Scotland would have the second best university system in the world (scaled for size of population) but there are worries about research funding, the impact on fees / no fees, student numbers from south of the border, access to european funding, and specific worries in one or two sectors where Scotland takes substantially more than what would be a per-head share of funding in that area.

I don't think anyone believes the idea about continuing the pan-UK research arrangement (I know I don't, it'd be completely unworkable), so the lack of any clarity about what would be put in place means it's difficult to know what would happen. I usually point out a couple of things though

1. Typically the UK doesn't get its full return on European funding. European funding usually needs three EU countries involved in the bid. RUK universities would now be in a different country, which could make European funding easier to access, just by working with the same people you always have.

2. The opportunities to influence European funding increase by having a government lobbying for the specific research strengths of Scotland

3. Holyrood has consistently shown a more progressive approach to tertiary education than Westminster regardless of who is in power. This would continue in iScotland

In terms of other funding sources, I've heard of one charity (big life sciences one but I'm not going to name it - told in confidence) who have already confidentially told their staff that independence would make no difference whatsoever in their approach. However, you have to understand that research funding is all about the UK Research Councils. They account for the huge majority of University research funding and the detail on how other organisations would approach it is tinkering around the edges.

[biffer]

You might be interested in this as well

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/08/30/stiglitz-enlightened-challenge-to-scottish-education/

[exile]

However, you have to understand that research funding is all about the UK Research Councils. They account for the huge majority of University research funding and the detail on how other organisations would approach it is tinkering around the edges.

As a footnote to that... (and at the risk of tinkering around the edges...)

Gordon Brown was spreading this sort of message earlier in the summer, with Paul Nurse expressing 'fear' that Scotland would lose out - namedropping charities as well as research councils.

Politically, there is a question here about whether Nurse was misrepresenting any of those organisations (who may or may not have taken a view on independence).

Even then there may be worse examples of scaremongering and misrepresentation...

...though at the time, I seem to remember the headline was received here as a low blow:

"Scottish independence would damage cancer research"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10884172/Scottish-independence-would-damage-cancer-research-Nobel-scientist-says.html

[Johnny_Ham]

Many thanks biffer and exile - your responses are really appreciated.

It is a subject I am going to have to do some further reading as I know so little about it.

This is a great start - thanks again, guys.

[tartandon]

There is real concern over how the research councils like EPSRC will react to independence. Some research centres also have funding direct from UK govt based on research council income.

So this is a major area of concern, and one where there hasn't been much (if any) public debate.

Am I correct in thinking that rUK students would not have to pay fees in an independent Scotland, benefitting from the arrangement where EU students don't pay fees at Scottish universities?

[EvilScotsman]

There is real concern over how the research councils like EPSRC will react to independence. Some research centres also have funding direct from UK govt based on research council income.

So this is a major area of concern, and one where there hasn't been much (if any) public debate.

Am I correct in thinking that rUK students would not have to pay fees in an independent Scotland, benefitting from the arrangement where EU students don't pay fees at Scottish universities?

Charge everyone fees, but give bursaries to students who live in Scotland (for 3 years).

Preserves the existing arrangement and complies with EU legislation.

[biffer]

There is real concern over how the research councils like EPSRC will react to independence. Some research centres also have funding direct from UK govt based on research council income.

So this is a major area of concern, and one where there hasn't been much (if any) public debate.

Am I correct in thinking that rUK students would not have to pay fees in an independent Scotland, benefitting from the arrangement where EU students don't pay fees at Scottish universities?

EPSRC is a UK government body (part of BIS). The white paper suggests keeping an arrangement of shared research councils but I don't think that's a workable solution. We'll need our own research councils. And we'll have to fund them at a higher rate to maintain current levels of university funding.

RUK students would end up fee free under current arrangements but I don't think it'd be too hard to put together a suitable system.

[Orraloon]

Am I correct in thinking that rUK students would not have to pay fees in an independent Scotland, benefitting from the arrangement where EU students don't pay fees at Scottish universities?

The SNP policy (should they have power to apply it after 2016) is to continue to charge fees from RUK students. How they achieve that is debatable. The SNP think they can get an opt out from EU law based on the damage which could be caused to the Scottish Higher education system if they weren't allowed to charge these fees. If that doesn't work then the system suggested by Evilscotsman is a perfectly reasonable and workable alternative.

[thorbotnic]

The SNP policy (should they have power to apply it after 2016) is to continue to charge fees from RUK students. How they achieve that is debatable. The SNP think they can get an opt out from EU law based on the damage which could be caused to the Scottish Higher education system if they weren't allowed to charge these fees. If that doesn't work then the system suggested by Evilscotsman is a perfectly reasonable and workable alternative.

The SNP policy would have a different impact, as it would specifically allow Scotland to discriminate against rUK students (other EU students would not be charged, as now). If the residency / bursary scheme was used instead, it would have to be applied equally to all EU students, both rUK and others, which will deter the best EU students from applying (at the moment, given that the SG has to provide funding for EU students, entry requirements and places are very restricted).

Why not offer rUK students free tuition as well, but raise the entry requirements so that only the very best can get in? There'd be no issue of English students overwhelming Scottish institutions then, why is what the SG is saying would be the issue (of course, it's not really the issue - it's that they want English students' fee money - which is why the SG policy is bound to fail when challenged in EU courts).

[Orraloon]

Why not offer rUK students free tuition as well, but raise the entry requirements so that only the very best can get in? There'd be no issue of English students overwhelming Scottish institutions then, why is what the SG is saying would be the issue (of course, it's not really the issue - it's that they want English students' fee money - which is why the SG policy is bound to fail when challenged in EU courts).

Because if RUK students have to pay £9K a year to study down south or the can study in Scotland for free, loads of them would want to come to study in Scotland. Eventually Scottish universities would be 90% RUK and 10% Scottish students wit not enough places for Scottish students.

[thorbotnic]

Because if RUK students have to pay £9K a year to study down south or the can study in Scotland for free, loads of them would want to come to study in Scotland. Eventually Scottish universities would be 90% RUK and 10% Scottish students wit not enough places for Scottish students.

Hence raising the entry requirements, like I said. If the priority was really avoiding 'swamping' that would immediately solve it, with the added benefit of attracting the best English students to Scottish institutions. But it's not really about that. Its about the SG wanting to have their cake and eat it with English fees.

[biffer]

Just to be clear, student fees have little to no impact on research funding.

[EvilScotsman]

The SNP policy would have a different impact, as it would specifically allow Scotland to discriminate against rUK students (other EU students would not be charged, as now). If the residency / bursary scheme was used instead, it would have to be applied equally to all EU students, both rUK and others, which will deter the best EU students from applying (at the moment, given that the SG has to provide funding for EU students, entry requirements and places are very restricted).

Why not offer rUK students free tuition as well, but raise the entry requirements so that only the very best can get in? There'd be no issue of English students overwhelming Scottish institutions then, why is what the SG is saying would be the issue (of course, it's not really the issue - it's that they want English students' fee money - which is why the SG policy is bound to fail when challenged in EU courts).

There's still plenty of EU students at universities in England, despite the fees.

[thorbotnic]

There's still plenty of EU students at universities in England, despite the fees.

There are. And very few EU students in Scotland (the Scottish university with which I work closely received received over 1000 EU applications for courses in a particular department last year - 4 were admitted). The entry requirements are very high indeed. But clearly Scottish universities don't have a problem with having very few EU students - so why would they not do the same once rUK students are also classed as EU students? Simply put - the SG want to rely on English students' fees to part-fund Scottish higher education, as they do now. Nothing to do with the 'soul' of the Scottish HE sector being threatened, or anything like that.

[EvilScotsman]

There are. And very few EU students in Scotland (the Scottish university with which I work closely received received over 1000 EU applications for courses in a particular department last year - 4 were admitted). The entry requirements are very high indeed. But clearly Scottish universities don't have a problem with having very few EU students - so why would they not do the same once rUK students are also classed as EU students? Simply put - the SG want to rely on English students' fees to part-fund Scottish higher education, as they do now. Nothing to do with the 'soul' of the Scottish HE sector being threatened, or anything like that.

Simply put - Scottish students going to English Unis have to pay fees at the moment, and will continue to have to do so after a 'Yes' vote. Why should English students going to Scotland suddenly stop paying fees?

Scottish Higher education will be funded after a 'Yes' vote in the same way it is now - the idea that English students fees contribute anything close to an amount which could be described as 'part-funded' is inaccurate IMO. There are around 4000 English (domiciled) admissions to Scottish unis per year, which equates to around £36m in fees per year (at £9k). This is across all Universities in Scotland. As an example, the uni I work for admits more (home) undergraduates per year than that.

[thorbotnic]

Simply put - Scottish students going to English Unis have to pay fees at the moment, and will continue to have to do so after a 'Yes' vote. Why should English students going to Scotland suddenly stop paying fees?

Scottish Higher education will be funded after a 'Yes' vote in the same way it is now - the idea that English students fees contribute anything close to an amount which could be described as 'part-funded' is inaccurate IMO. There are around 4000 English (domiciled) admissions to Scottish unis per year, which equates to around £36m in fees per year (at £9k). This is across all Universities in Scotland. As an example, the uni I work for admits more (home) undergraduates per year than that.

English unis will continue to apply EU law equally post Scottish independence. Why won't the Scottish government?

£36m is an appreciable sum, and as you note this is not shared equally among all Scottish universities. Your most prestigious institutions would take the biggest hit.

[EvilScotsman]

English unis will continue to apply EU law equally post Scottish independence. Why won't the Scottish government?

£36m is an appreciable sum, and as you note this is not shared equally among all Scottish universities. Your most prestigious institutions would take the biggest hit.

Because the Scottish govt can't afford to pay for English students' tuition as well as Scottish students. The Scottish government will apply for an opt-out of EU law on that basis - to state that it would not be applying EU law is misleading language (or maybe I'm just being picky?).

In the context of the education budget/university funding, it's a relative pittance. As you say, the "most prestigious institutions would take the biggest hit" - i.e. the ones which can afford it.

[thorbotnic]

Because the Scottish govt can't afford to pay for English students' tuition as well as Scottish students. The Scottish government will apply for an opt-out of EU law on that basis - to state that it would not be applying EU law is misleading language (or maybe I'm just being picky?).

In the context of the education budget/university funding, it's a relative pittance. As you say, the "most prestigious institutions would take the biggest hit" - i.e. the ones which can afford it.

So - which is it? Either English students are crucial to the Scottish HE sector, which is why the Scottish govt post-independence will actively discriminate against them in order to secure their financial contribution, or they are a non-factor, in which case they can simply be treated the same as other EU students (who, it cannot be stated strongly enough, are effectively excluded from Scottish HE at the moment). The Scottish government can afford to pay for other EU students' study - or rather, it doesn't pay for them, because they are turned away in almost all cases - and if English students don't make a material contribution to Scottish HE then they can be treated exactly the same.

It doesn't add up.

Edited September 4, 2014 by thorbotnic

[EvilScotsman]

So - which is it? Either English students are crucial to the Scottish HE sector, which is why the Scottish govt post-independence will actively discriminate against them in order to secure their financial contribution, or they are a non-factor, in which case they can simply be treated the same as other EU students (who, it cannot be stated strongly enough, are effectively excluded from Scottish HE at the moment). The Scottish government can afford to pay for other EU students' study - or rather, it doesn't pay for them, because they are turned away in almost all cases - and if English students don't make a material contribution to Scottish HE then they can be treated exactly the same.

It doesn't add up.

EU students don't pay fees as Scottish students going to other EU countries (excluding England) don't pay them either.

It stands to reason that, if English students were not charged fees in Scotland but were in England, then significantly more students from south of the border would apply to go to university in Scotland than currently do, given the lack of any language barrier or huge cultural differences (insert your own joke here). This would lead to less Scottish (domiciled) students being able to gain places at Scottish institutions, and is why the Scottish govt (in the case of a 'Yes' vote) is proposing to retain charging of students from the rest of the UK.

Nowhere have I said that English students are a 'non-factor'. I stated that their financial contribution to higher education is less than implied by your use of the term 'part-funded', and showed that their total contribution to HE in Scotland is less than the fees paid to one institution in England by home/EU students.

The only thing which doesn't add up is the idea that the Scottish govt should have to subsidise students from England who're studying in Scotland purely as a result of the farcical marketisation of HE in England.

[thorbotnic]

EU students don't pay fees as Scottish students going to other EU countries (excluding England) don't pay them either.

It stands to reason that, if English students were not charged fees in Scotland but were in England, then significantly more students from south of the border would apply to go to university in Scotland than currently do, given the lack of any language barrier or huge cultural differences (insert your own joke here). This would lead to less Scottish (domiciled) students being able to gain places at Scottish institutions, and is why the Scottish govt (in the case of a 'Yes' vote) is proposing to retain charging of students from the rest of the UK.

Nowhere have I said that English students are a 'non-factor'. I stated that their financial contribution to higher education is less than implied by your use of the term 'part-funded', and showed that their total contribution to HE in Scotland is less than the fees paid to one institution in England by home/EU students.

The only thing which doesn't add up is the idea that the Scottish govt should have to subsidise students from England who're studying in Scotland purely as a result of the farcical marketisation of HE in England.

Scottish students going to study in other EU countries pay the fee which is levied on home students in that country. In some countries they pay fees, in some they don't. The policy is entirely consistent across the EU, and where it has been challenged (ECJ rulings re. Austrian and, I believe, Dutch HE institutions) it has been upheld. This has nothing to do with Scottish fees policy - if a Scottish student goes to, say, Germany, and the course is free to German students, it is free to Scottish student. If it is £5000 for German students - well, it's £5000 for Scottish students too. You seem to think that there is some kind of condition of recipropracy - there isn't.

As I've highlighted, EU students can currently study for free in Scotland. Now, the SG and universities don't like this, because they have to foot the bill. So, they raise the entry requirements and massively restrict the number of places available - nothing wrong with that under EU law. They're not, however, proposing the same solution for iScotland re. rUK students post-independence. Why not, when it works very well currently? Because of the money English students bring in.

[EvilScotsman]

Scottish students going to study in other EU countries pay the fee which is levied on home students in that country. In some countries they pay fees, in some they don't. The policy is entirely consistent across the EU, and where it has been challenged (ECJ rulings re. Austrian and, I believe, Dutch HE institutions) it has been upheld. This has nothing to do with Scottish fees policy - if a Scottish student goes to, say, Germany, and the course is free to German students, it is free to Scottish student. If it is £5000 for German students - well, it's £5000 for Scottish students too. You seem to think that there is some kind of condition of recipropracy - there isn't.

As I've highlighted, EU students can currently study for free in Scotland. Now, the SG and universities don't like this, because they have to foot the bill. So, they raise the entry requirements and massively restrict the number of places available - nothing wrong with that under EU law. They're not, however, proposing the same solution for iScotland re. rUK students post-independence. Why not, when it works very well currently? Because of the money English students bring in.

Ah, I get you. Hadn't understood what you meant until that last paragraph there.

I can't find any information about a restriction on the number of EU students - only a quota for how many Scottish/non-UK EU students(i.e. non-fee payers) each university is allowed to accept each year. The most recent numbers I've managed to find (in what was, admittedly, a cursory search - I have to pretend to work sometimes) was a ratio of 1:7ish for non-Uk students to Scottish (domiciled) students i.e. 28k Scottish students accepted to 4k EU.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24226624

I make it 1:16 in the UK overall, according to the HESA stats here (https://www.hesa.ac.uk/stats). It's not a perfect comparison, obviously, but it certainly doesn't suggest to me there's a cap or limit on the number of non-fee paying EU students specifically.

It is of course possible that you simply meant a cap on the total number of places funded by the SG (or that I'm comparing apples and oranges with those figures). I'm happy to be corrected either way .

[Orraloon]

So - which is it? Either English students are crucial to the Scottish HE sector, which is why the Scottish govt post-independence will actively discriminate against them in order to secure their financial contribution, or they are a non-factor, in which case they can simply be treated the same as other EU students (who, it cannot be stated strongly enough, are effectively excluded from Scottish HE at the moment). The Scottish government can afford to pay for other EU students' study - or rather, it doesn't pay for them, because they are turned away in almost all cases - and if English students don't make a material contribution to Scottish HE then they can be treated exactly the same.

It doesn't add up.

You lot jist don't get it do you? The People of Scotland are fed up subsidising you lot doon there, we're jist no gonnae dae it ony mair. Whether we can afford to give RUK students free education (and we probably could) is besides the point. We have subsidised you for long enough. It's time you stood an your own two feet. If you continue to vote in governments that insist on charging students £9K a year for their education then hell mend you. Take responsibility for your actions.

[EvilScotsman]

You lot jist don't get it do you? The People of Scotland are fed up subsidising you lot doon there, we're jist no gonnae dae it ony mair. Whether we can afford to give RUK students free education (and we probably could) is besides the point. We have subsidised you for long enough. It's time you stood an your own two feet. If you continue to vote in governments that insist on charging students £9K a year for their education then hell mend you. Take responsibility for your actions.

In all fairness, the second partner in the coalition campaigned explicitly on a promise not to support that particular piece of lunacy.

[Orraloon]

In all fairness, the second partner in the coalition campaigned explicitly on a promise not to support that particular piece of lunacy.

Well, if they are daft enough to believe what a bunch of Liberals tell them then they are clearly far "too stupid" to have an independent country. Maybe they should ask Germany to look after their affairs for them?