Set Back To Scottish independence- This Generation Not Ready

[Robroysboy]

On reflection I was dissapointed last night as much as anyone else.

I am 40 next year and believe that I will see independance in my life time. For the older nationalists this may be a harder one to take.

The older scottish population seem to be stuck in their ways, don't like change and combined with the FEAR factor they have selfishly ( in my opinion) voted against the future of their grandchildren.

No oil fund, trident and a potential UKIP and conservative westminster at the next election.

Our day will come, but it is not today.

Alba Gu Brath ( Scotland Forever)

[HIGHTOWER 1314]

ALBA GU BRATH

[Handsome22Devil]

After the initial disappointment and embarrassment of Thursday night, I'm actually pretty happy. The road to progress is rarely a straight one and while this ended on a step back, it followed five forward.

To have moved within a five-point swing of independence is simply remarkable - it is not just a lunatic movement, as it was when I was a kid (which I hasten to add was not *that* long ago!) but a viable prospect supported by nearly half the country.

When you look at the age demographics of how the yes/no vote split, there is massive reason for optimism. By the time of the rematch those currently in the oldest category will be dead - harsh but true - and even a few of the baby-boomers, the luckiest generation in history, will have followed them.

Yes cannot take it for granted that those replacing them on the electoral roll will swing the right way but anything approaching 50-50 helps the cause hugely and with further work there is no reason to think it won't continue to be better than that.

But, ultimately, the reason for confidence is that Gordon Brown broke the union by promising to rewrite the constitution on the back of a fag packet over a weekend. From that point on the vote simply decided whether it would be a slow death or a quick one.

Now if Westminster does produce devo-super max then fair play - that will actually kill complete independence stone dead. It obviously wasn't shouted during the campaign but the number of countries which are, in practice, 100 per cent independent is tiny. What's important is that they get to choose what slices of sovereignty to give away in exchange for whatever...and Scotland as an equal partner in a loose British confederation would probably satisfy the vast majority.

However, for the new constitutional arrangement to work, it will require a level of vision, creativity and willingess to compromise that simply doesn't exist in British politics right now.

Quite rightly, you cannot offer more power to Scotland without offering some level of autonomy to England.

You cannot offer autonomy to England without changing the Barnett formula.

It will be impossible to maintain current Scottish spending post-Barnett without giving us control of corporation tax/oil revenues.

The RUK will never agree to giving us corporation tax/oil revenues.

Now, if the 55 per cent are, as they are suddenly so eager to claim on Facebook, No voters out of British pride rather than fear, then of course it is possible they will duly accept the cuts which brings spending down to a level amount per person in each individual country. But I doubt that - despite is claimed, a huge chunk of the 55 per cent voted no out of fear and uncertainty and a poorer deal from Westminster is only going to make them think they have less to lose in voting Yes next time.

We can then turn to the farce of deciding who gets to form the government in Westminster. I actually think Labour will do well in the 2015 election (as ever, when it comes down to them or the Tories, they'll be fine) in Scotland but England will be a different matter. Are we seriously suggesting we could have a UK Labour government, with Scottish MPs, which could sit Tuesdays, Thursdays and every last Friday of the month in Westminster while every other day is a Tory led English government? I can't be arsed listing the possibilities for carnage here but really, it's just not going to work...

There may be examples I've not heard of but I don't think it's possible to have an equal federal country when one part of it has a population majority the way England does.

England and Scotland are drifting apart - to many the thought of actually splitting this time was unthinkable but that thought will linger for the next 15 years...

Nicola Sturgeon, and whoever follows her, must keep working to make the best they can for the people of Scotland under the current arrangements and lessons must be learned from this campaign. It is not a criticism of the Alex Salmond, he played his hand pretty well, but a broader use of the Scottish cabinet would help and as many 'technical' questions as possible should be answered beforehand. The links created through Yes to the Greens and the individual groups supporting the independence cause should be maintained and strengthened - even at the short-term cost of cash or a few votes or seats if it comes to it.

It will not be easy but getting this far wasn't easy either.

Keep the faith!

Oh, and to those with the petted lip talking about us being a region not a country, not wanting to sing FoS, get a grip and get back in the game. No one ever won from being a goal down at half time by refusing to come out for the second half.

[Flora MaDonald]

I'm finished, done. Waited for this all my life, and it's over. Scumbag, Judas filthy bastards

[thplinth]

I'm finished, done. Waited for this all my life, and it's over. Scumbag, Judas filthy bastards

Ditto. Been a pleasure working with you Flora.

[Return of Yermaw]

There was a generation in George Square last night who will never be ready no matter how persuasive the argument.

[Padre Andrew]

After the initial disappointment and embarrassment of Thursday night, I'm actually pretty happy. The road to progress is rarely a straight one and while this ended on a step back, it followed five forward.

To have moved within a five-point swing of independence is simply remarkable - it is not just a lunatic movement, as it was when I was a kid (which I hasten to add was not *that* long ago!) but a viable prospect supported by nearly half the country.

When you look at the age demographics of how the yes/no vote split, there is massive reason for optimism. By the time of the rematch those currently in the oldest category will be dead - harsh but true - and even a few of the baby-boomers, the luckiest generation in history, will have followed them.

Yes cannot take it for granted that those replacing them on the electoral roll will swing the right way but anything approaching 50-50 helps the cause hugely and with further work there is no reason to think it won't continue to be better than that.

But, ultimately, the reason for confidence is that Gordon Brown broke the union by promising to rewrite the constitution on the back of a fag packet over a weekend. From that point on the vote simply decided whether it would be a slow death or a quick one.

Now if Westminster does produce devo-super max then fair play - that will actually kill complete independence stone dead. It obviously wasn't shouted during the campaign but the number of countries which are, in practice, 100 per cent independent is tiny. What's important is that they get to choose what slices of sovereignty to give away in exchange for whatever...and Scotland as an equal partner in a loose British confederation would probably satisfy the vast majority.

However, for the new constitutional arrangement to work, it will require a level of vision, creativity and willingess to compromise that simply doesn't exist in British politics right now.

Quite rightly, you cannot offer more power to Scotland without offering some level of autonomy to England.

You cannot offer autonomy to England without changing the Barnett formula.

It will be impossible to maintain current Scottish spending post-Barnett without giving us control of corporation tax/oil revenues.

The RUK will never agree to giving us corporation tax/oil revenues.

Now, if the 55 per cent are, as they are suddenly so eager to claim on Facebook, No voters out of British pride rather than fear, then of course it is possible they will duly accept the cuts which brings spending down to a level amount per person in each individual country. But I doubt that - despite is claimed, a huge chunk of the 55 per cent voted no out of fear and uncertainty and a poorer deal from Westminster is only going to make them think they have less to lose in voting Yes next time.

We can then turn to the farce of deciding who gets to form the government in Westminster. I actually think Labour will do well in the 2015 election (as ever, when it comes down to them or the Tories, they'll be fine) in Scotland but England will be a different matter. Are we seriously suggesting we could have a UK Labour government, with Scottish MPs, which could sit Tuesdays, Thursdays and every last Friday of the month in Westminster while every other day is a Tory led English government? I can't be arsed listing the possibilities for carnage here but really, it's just not going to work...

There may be examples I've not heard of but I don't think it's possible to have an equal federal country when one part of it has a population majority the way England does.

England and Scotland are drifting apart - to many the thought of actually splitting this time was unthinkable but that thought will linger for the next 15 years...

Nicola Sturgeon, and whoever follows her, must keep working to make the best they can for the people of Scotland under the current arrangements and lessons must be learned from this campaign. It is not a criticism of the Alex Salmond, he played his hand pretty well, but a broader use of the Scottish cabinet would help and as many 'technical' questions as possible should be answered beforehand. The links created through Yes to the Greens and the individual groups supporting the independence cause should be maintained and strengthened - even at the short-term cost of cash or a few votes or seats if it comes to it.

It will not be easy but getting this far wasn't easy either.

Keep the faith!

Oh, and to those with the petted lip talking about us being a region not a country, not wanting to sing FoS, get a grip and get back in the game. No one ever won from being a goal down at half time by refusing to come out for the second half.

Well said. This isn't over, though it may take a while.