mccaughey85

There will be a very tiny minority who consider themselves equally british and scottish who are yes voters. But there will also be a tiny minority of the more scottish than british ppl who vote no. Theres always exceptions to the rule or outliers. Imo the referendum came down alot to identity and what you see yourself as rather than money. I agree there might be a few incomers who consider themselves more british than scottish who might vote yes. In my experience theres next to no one who is scottish born and bred who considers themselves more british than scottish who isnt a unionist/britnat. Those types are usually the most hardline of the uber unionists.

We are talking about scots who consider themselves more british than scottish or british not scottish? You are telling me that a small % of those ppl are not unionists/britnats but scottish nationalists? Seriously thats something i have never encountered either in person or online, radio, tv etc.

What % did the norwegians vote for independence in 1905?

Lol come on tae fuck. The scots who feel british first are generally uber unionists. Dont think i have ever encountered someone who identifies as more british than scottish who wasnt a unionist/britnat.

I dismiss it because they wouldnt be in northern ireland had they not settled there from scotland and northern england. What are you not understanding about that. Also it depends on when you consider britishness to have started and if ppl considered themselves british before 1707 or 1603. The romans referred to these islands as the british isles and the picts and other celtic tribes may have been considered british by the romans or even by themselves. Its something thats hard to tell due no newspapers or opinion polls back then. Also the world was changing and a british empire colonising the world probably gave many a chance to identify as being british if they wanted to. Many scots took this chance when they migrated and colonised places like ireland and india etc. The scots that colonised the north of ireland were very much loyal to the crown and britain. If they hadnt of settled there then irish gaels would be the dominant population in the north and i very much doubt they would be loyal to the british crown or government or even consider themselves british. Facts show that catholic gaels tended to rebel against the crown and britain and they fought back time and time again. End of the day its a simple fact that ireland would have very little ppl identifying as british had the british ppl not colonised the place. The same cannot be said of scotland. Many of our native population have considered themselves british andit wasnt down to settlers moving here. Obviously the unionists scots would hate having to move to this new state but they would be told that their british/unionist culture isnt welcome in the newly indy scotland and they will not be tolerated. It leaves them with options of getting behind an indy scotland or fukking out of it and leaving us in peace.

Eh? Anybody who considers themselves british first in scotland will be an uber unionist/britnat. Uber unionists usually fall into two categories, equally scottish and british, more british not scottish but its still quite rare to meet ones who are british not scottish. I would even say theres a small minority of uber unionists who consider themselves more scottish than british, they just like being british and consider it major part of their identity obviously not quite as much as being scottish. So do you consider yourself british because we are geographically part of britain?

Well you are said westminster wont be feeding them hope and power in an indy scotland. Why do you assume that. If the uk feel scotland is too much of a loss financially and culturally then they could easily encourage the unionists and other disillusioned voters to vote back in. There doesnt need to be a new dawn of unionism, we have already a large amount of unionists if we didnt then we would of won the 2014 referendum. End of the day if historic voting doesnt matter then lets look at the present day patterns that showed we didnt want independence in 2014 by 55/45. You can spin things anyway you want but we voted for the union and it lools like a decent chance we will again. Thats sadly what happens when you have only have 29% who feel scottish not british. You would be better preparing yourself for the cold reality of no independence in your lifetime. Assuming your 30+ years. This messageboard is not a reflection of scottish society.

Lol thats some hardcore stat analysis. His stats actually arent as bad as i thought especially the assists. Hes defo not a striker. I think a forward in a front three is his best bet or a winger if he could improve his crossing and tactical awareness.

Not everyone feels the way you do craig. Your blind optimism regarding independence is not realistic. Everything you say there is not guaranteed to happen. If you cant see the flip side then i hope most nationalists can because we will need to understand what could happen in order to prevent it. You assume westminster wont want scotland back, you assume scotland wont vote in a unionist party even though roughly a third of our population are unionist. You assume wales will vote for indy despite the polls having never showm that. You assume that indy scotland will be a success. Its all based on assumption rather than my argument which is based on potentially what could happen. Scotland for the vast majority of its existence in the union has voted for unionist parties and we have had unionist majoritys nearly every poll recorded until recent years. We also voted for the the union by 55/45 in a referendum. If thats not enough evidence that scotland could vote unionist parties in then i dont know what is. We already have a huge proportion of our electorate who vote unionist parties in, cant be far off half of the vote in the scottish election. The problem is they dont vote for one party like the nationalists do with snp.

1. Its already tough right now in the union for all four countries but still the polls show a 50/50 split for indy. We have had bojo and tory leader in charge while the cost of living is rocketing and still scots are cautious about choosing indy. If indy proves not to be an instant succes then the pendulum can easy swing back even if it doesnt look that much better in the union ppl will still be swayed to the idea that we were better off back in especially if the uk makes big promises of more funding and better pensions etc. We have already shown that we are scared shitless by independence in the first vote. Most other countries fought and died for their independence whereas we get frightened over pensions and what currency we use. 2. I very much doubt wales ever choose independence. The polling never usually has them ever winning independence. Wales just isnt historically a country and they have never shown any real desire to become one. Reunification of ireland could happen but that doesnt mean that unionists in scotland will ever stop wanting to rejoin the uk and they wont just drop their british identity because of irish unity. Southern Ireland has been free for a hundred years and that didnt inspire scots to up and leave the union. Also irish unification could result in unionists in the north moving to scotland and the lowlands in particular. Alot of them have an affinity with scotland due to their ancestors coming from here. Imagine how much of clusterfuck that would be for indy scotland having a huge migration of british unionists coming here. 3. You assume no unionist party could rise to power. If theres an appetite for unionism in scotland then the unionist parties will get votes. Doesnt have to be just one unionist party either. They can work together and undermine our country to the point where they grow support and look to rejoin. You just assuming everythings gunna go how you want it to is strange considering we lost the first referendum and most of the polls show either an even split or a slight majority for the union. 4. Wouldnt really disagree with that. Getting back in the eu would probably have a positive impact on maintaining independence although most voters already know that its likely we look to rejoin the eu after independence and still we are not getting majorities for yes. 5. Brexit is nothing like scottish independence. Time only heals if things are going well and the wound is sealed properly. Our independence isnt anything like brexit. Feeling british and feeling european is no way comparable and our union of 300+ years where we shared a currency,military,culture and fought in 2 world wars and built an empire together is not just suddenly disintegrate because we have slight majority who want independence. British unionists wont just lay down and when they make up a third of your population then you better believe they will cause independence as much problems as they can, we might even see random acts of terrorism although personally i dont think they will quite go that far. Pretty much everything you have said is reliant on things going smoothly. Not everyone feels and thinks like you. Its important that nationalists understand this or we will be back to more referendums after independence.

I think gove is a strong candidate for leadership.

Eh? Going by the data we have 35% of our population who either equally identify as scottish and british or more british than scottish. The 26% who are equally scottish and british will be proud unionist brits. The opinion of being equally scottish and british is something no nationalist i have ever met has had. Infact alot of no voters and ppl on the fence dont consider themselves equally scottish and british. Classing yourself as equally scottish and british is a trait of proud british ppl who turn up to ibrox with a uj. If you think we have 9% uber unionist which the graph clearly shows isnt true then god help us and the indy movement because you are deluding yourself. I aint even arguing this point in defence of partition. I am just trying to get through to some of you guys that it isnt some tiny minority who will possibly look to undermine our independence, its a very big minority with potential to destroy it. Just out of interest what percentage would you say are uber/strong nationalists in our population? Looking at the graph its absolutely worrying to see the scottish not british group at 29%.

Never said its not real. Its incredibly real and powerful but it originates from settlers who were not native to ireland. I aint arguing that scotland uber unionists are more uber than northern ireland. I am just saying that they originally came from britain/scotland and therefore arent indigenous to ireland. Also alot of unionists in ni are concentrated into certain counties and due to partition they are concentrated in northern ireland anyways. In scotland unionists are more spread out across the country. If scotland were partitioned and all the unionists were placed into 1 area then you might end up with a northern ireland situation where the majority identify as being british.

Are you suggesting that its only ppl who feel more british than scottish that are uber unionists? The uber unionists are usually in my experience equally scottish and british with a small minority of them being more british than scottish. The graph shows that to be true. Not that i am saying the graph is necessarily gospel but the idea that its just ppl who feel more british than scottish who are uber unioninists is rubbish. Would you admit theres a chance that independence might not go well in the first 10 years? We have nearly a third of our population who are uber unionists. Thats not just disappearing because you think it will.

Me Devaluing their britishness is irrelevant. Fact is they identify as british because their ancestors came from britain. They would not be in ireland had their ancestors not settled and colonised the north. The ppl identifying as british in scotland didnt move to scotland. They are indigenous to the lowlands of scotland(and arguably other parts) so therefore we produce british ppl naturally and have done for centuries.

Hes in the ukraine denazifying the population.

Its unlikely but there is still a chance. I wouldnt play him as a striker. I think his ideal position would be as winger/forward in a front three. Obviously he would have to up his goal rate and his assiat rate to play that position regulary but if he can turn into a lower half bundesliga player then that would be a great turnaround in terms of his career which has been going slowly downhill since he signed for rb leipzig.

Nah its different. The northern ireland unionists are largely decended settlers from lowland scotland and northern england. We naturally produce ppl with a british identity and have done for centuries. I am not disagreeing with the second part. The british ppl we produce are obviously scottish as well and usually they are proud of both identities. You get the few oddballs who say they are more british than scottish but most of your hardline unionists tend to be equally scottish and british. Ulster unionists are naturally irish, the fact they cling onto the identity of being british is mostly because they originally come from britain. The graph shows this group make up about a third of our population which imo is pretty accurate. These are the ppl which will try and undermine our country and if they organise themselves under one party similar to how the nationalists do under the snp then we could have a tough time in an indy scotland. We have a large amount of voters who swing back and forth depending on ecomonics which is another worry for me as that means indy scotland will need to prosper in the short and medium term in order to stop these ppl wanting back in the uk. I fall into the scottish not british category which i already know is very much a minority grouping but i didnt realise its 29%. I seen a poll years ago that had "scottish only" at nearly two thirds of our population but the wording was different in that poll so maybe thats why it came up so high. What group on that graph do you come under?

Lol whys everyone so sensitive. If you dont want to discuss the subject then theres plenty of other threads to go on.

Repartition? We havent been partitioned once. Tbh i will just leave it there on the partition subject as i can see most on here hate the very idea. I just dont see us voting for independence and even if we do it could be a rocky road for us if things dont work out well. Do you think we will vote for independence? Do you currently live in scotland?

Centre back?

If you dont want to discuss it then why are you on the thread. Just leave the rest of us to it.

I doubt the british would have had as much leverage when negotiating the treaty and its concessions if there hadnt been a huge amount of unionists in the north willing to kick off and cause major problems. So what do you believe is the root cause of centuries of civil war and conflict in ireland? Imo it comes down to 2 things. 1. England/Britain invaded and has refused to give up what they see is their colony despite countless rebellions from the native irish. 2. There is a large unionist british population planted there that want to remain british and part of the uk. This group has been used to divide ireland and maintain british rule. You can talk about treatys and partition etc but if your honest then those are the two issues that prevents or has prevented ireland from obtaining full independence unity. My idea of partition in scotland is far different from ireland. The idea of redrawing the border is different in that the newly formed independent scottish state would never look to ever retake the area lost to the uk. It would always be british from then on. The difference between ireland and scotland is that scotland naturally produces ppl who identify as british and see themselves as british. Thats just the nature of being on the island of britain.The graph above clearly shows this. Ireland doesnt produce british ppl naturally. The idea was mostly a throwaway and outlandish suggestion that i knew ppl would dislike but its caused a debate thats opened my eyes to how out of touch indy supporters in here are regarding what level of british identity ppl have in scotland and how many feel some affinity with being british. For many in here they live in some kind of fantasy were 70 or more percent of the population are rabid scottish nationalists just itching to leave the uk and denounce all things british. The fact that ally and aiid are putting up a graph that clearly shows 61% have some form of british identity and 35% are just as british as they are scottish or even more proves that point.

Eh? Being equally scottish and british is not a neutral view. The hardline scottish unionists tend to be proud scots as well, i have never claimed that the scottish unionists see themselves as just british. Most tend to view themselves as both and that graph shows clearly that there is 35 percent of them. Surely the graph showing 35 percent who either equally feel british and scottish or feel more british than scottish tells us that being british is still a massive identity to many in scotland. The fact that you and ally can look at this graph as proof of there being very few ppl who identify as british is to me baffling. Lol Are we looking at the same graph. Surely you can see that theres 35 percent who obviously have a strong british identity. Hell theres even a 26 percent who identify loosley with being british and only 29% who only view themselves as scottish not british. So we have a total of 61 percent who have some kind of feeling of britishness according to that graph. Then theres the 9 percent who identify as other. I am willing to bet that line has a significant number of ppl who see themselves as english and british who have moved to scotland. I hope that graph is bullshit or massively wrong because it doesnt read well for the indy cause.

Yeh i meant he was never a first team starter or he certainly didnt consistently start for them from what i can recall. He usually came off the bench.