mccaughey85

Most Countries our size don't produce lots of elite players anyways and never will. I am not expecting us to produce lots of elite players. What I want is a few more Frasers, Armstrongs and hickeys. We produce these level of guys in all positions who can cut it at epl level then we should stand a chance at going to more tournaments. The way we produce these guys is by getting our best talent playing proper competitive football at a young age. Currently our best players have come from the route I am suggesting. The evidence overwhelmingly supports that route.

Yes as I said 2 in 20 years. Thats a poor return. It was 1 in 20 years until gilmour started getting games this season. I find it strange ppl in here stubbornly defend the route of going to elite clubs based on the basis that 2 players out of dozens have made it in 2 decades! The question is why when it's proven not to work.

Robertson only spent a brief period at queen's park playing league 2. You know fine well that Robertson quickly moved onto spl and English championship football at around the same age Tierney was playing spl with Celtic. He even had a stint in the epl for one season. To me thats a comparable level of football to what Tierney was exposed to. Why are you trying to make out Robertson spent most of his younger years at queen's park? Whatever way you twist it neither went to elite clubs and wasted their formative years playing youth football. That's the main point I was making. Of course theres going to slight differences in where they played and what age they made transitions. Not every player travels the exact same route but both players played spl and English championship football instead of youth football and that is what helped them develop into good players.

Point is neither played a high level of football barring a few appearances in the champs league for tierney and neither were at elite clubs. They both fall into the same category in terms of developing their careers in weaker leagues.

Would you say doak is too good to go on loan to the spl or English championship?

Tierney is the same as Robertson in the fact that he played lower level football(spl and English championship) before stepping up. Both players benefitted from this pathway and it helped them become the players they have become. Also Tierney got champs league experience because he played for Celtic. If he was at an elite European club I doubt he would have gotten that. You suggesting Tierney and Robbie would be better players had they went to an elite clubs youth set up instead of playing first team football.

I would probably agree that gilmour would make it regardless of what route he took but I think he might have been an epl regular at 19/20 had he played first team football at lower level rather than spending his 16-19 years in the Chelsea youth set up. I suppose we will never know and I am just thankful he is at a club like Brighton who will give him the valuable experience he needs. He wasn't getting that at Chelsea and was in danger of not making the grade at epl level.

Tierney falls into the mcginn and Robertson category. Doaks not made it yet. Why has only 2 in 20 years made it through an elite clubs youth system? Surely that suggests that route doesn't work.

Fletcher came through more than 20 years ago! You call that recent years? If some of our youth players are too good for spl football then why did they not make it at a good level after going to epl youth set ups? Why has only 2 in 20 years made it through an elite club or epl clubs youth set up to play at a high level?

Fletcher came through more than 20 years ago! You call that recent years? If some of our players are too good for spl football then why did they not make it at a good level after going to epl youth set ups? Why has only 2 in 20 years made it through an elite club or epl clubs youth set up to play at a high level?

How can you tell? We don't know what might have happened. Surely the stats show that gilmour is an outlier. None of our other young players in 20 years have made it at epl level after being at an elite club apart from mctominay. For the record I ain't saying he should have stayed at rangers or that rangers was the best place for him to develop but I do think he might have developed better playing first team football at an English championship club for 2 or 3 seasons before moving up to epl level. Also gilmour is only just starting to have a proper club career at 22, it was touch and go wether he would make it at epl level. The fact that his career is starting to take off at Brighton probably proves my point that moving to a smaller club that will give you opportunities is better than being at a club that won't give you a proper chance. Would you rather gilmour was still at Chelsea struggling to get any first team football?

I think theres been a misunderstanding as to what I meant with the 80 percent coming through at elite clubs. My point was that very few players go straight into the first team from an elite clubs youth set up without getting significant experience at a lower level. Looking through Bayerns last champions league game against Basel, 7 out of the starting 11 spent at least a season or 2 playing lower league football or in a weak European league. And that's me not counting neuer who actually spent a very short period playing lower league football before making it into Bayerns team. Also Bayern are one of the few elite clubs who actually do quite well with converting youth players into first team players. Looking at man citys last champions league game they started 8 players who played a lower level of football before becoming a first team regular at an elite club. It would normally be more than that as haaland didn't play and man city had already qualified and played a few youth prospects that normally don't play. Probably closer to 9 or 10. You can do the same with any top club and it will mostly be 8 or 9 that played lower level football before stepping up. Fair enough that might be a harsh barometer or critique. I do think that elite clubs can produce top players but they tend to do that by giving them significant experience at a lower level. Not sure what your point is regarding the elite clubs not putting youth players out on loan. Pretty sure alot of of the lower leagues and non elite European leagues are littered with youth players from elite clubs. Cyclings different, it's a solo sport that relies more on doing individual training. It's not a team sport and is totally different to football that comparing the two is a waste of time. Theres no element of learning to play with team mates in cycling. I am not suggesting having good facilities and coaching is a negative but it will never replace first team football. If being at a top club gives you the best chance of success how has it failed our youth players so badly? The youth prospects we sent down were considered some of the best talents with the best potential yet they consistently failed when placed into elite clubs youth set ups.

Well the stats don't lie, just trawl through any top team and their players mostly played in weaker leagues or lower leagues. I don't think you need to be an expert in player development to see that most top class players come through that route.

I am not suggesting that our young players stay in Scotland or the lower leagues in England for their whole career. I just don't see the point in them going before the age of 21 to a club that won't give them first team football.

Pick out any top club in Europe and look through their team. You will find most of their players either played lower league football or played in a relatively weak European league when they were young players. Very few come through at elite clubs. Haaland and debruyne both prove my point. Both played in relatively weak European leagues before moving up a level. Elite clubs have youth set ups because they can sell a player on for a small fee to smaller clubs and reap back some money invested in the set up meanwhile if one or two develop into top players they don't miss out. It's just a case of them hoovering up young talents so they don't potentially miss out on someone special. Not really ethical in my opinion but money talks and the elite clubs have stupid amounts of money these days. James Forrest was never good enough to make the step up. If doak is good enough for a top club then he would excel at Celtic in the spl and then move up a level. Theres absolutely no evidence to suggest he's too good for the spl or that he wouldn't benefit from a season or two in the spl. Lots of Celtic players have gone onto big things after spending a few seasons there. Ppl need to calm it down on doak. The lads done relatively nothing in his career to suggest he will make it at Liverpool or any top club. Alot of ppl in here would turn their nose up at doak going to Celtic or the English championship which is strange and slightly delusional to think he is already too good for that level when he hasn't really done anything in his career so far.

I say yes it does to the first question you ask, the vast majority of elite players developed by playing against lesser players before making the move up. The stats show that to be true. Your pulling out the odd individual player who didn't play lower league as an example. Foden is an exception. The vast majority of top players played in lower leagues or weaker European leagues before heading to an elite club. It's probably well over 80 percent of the top 200 players in the world came through that route. Elite clubs don't often produce top players because they can't afford to risk giving them chances in games where it's unacceptable for them to lose. I still don't understand the Armstrong point. I am not suggesting he should of played v England and its irrelevant wether him playing spl contributed to his mistake. I am not suggesting young players spend their entire careers stagnating in the spl or English championship. Armstrong moved on from the spl and onto a better league. He managed to do this because he spent his younger years learning and developing rather than being in some epl youth set up getting no proper experience. If you feel big epl clubs youth set ups are the best environment for our young players then why has only 1 in 20 years made the grade(mctominay)? You can have all the dedicated fitness and nutrition plans and dvd video analysis etc but nothing will beat playing competitive football every week against grown men. It's basically given us all of our best players and it confuses the hell out of me why ppl want our best talents wasting away in youth set ups that have proven not to work. Would you say 1 player in 20 years is worthwhile?

Darren Fletcher came through nearly 20 years ago!! In the last 20 years it's been mctominay and gilmour, thats it and even gilmour isn't really a great example. He has only just started to make the grade in the epl after a failing at Chelsea and Norwich. Fair enough I agree rangers have hardly been great at bringing through young Scottish talent but the point was more about gilmour playing football at 18/19/20. I think he would be further ahead in his development had he played English championship or spl for a few seasons. Thats my opinion and I suppose we will never know but what we do know is that only 1 other young player in 20 plus years has been a success at an elite club after coming through their youth set up. Does that not tell you everything you need to know about whats best for our young players. Also my argument isn't about necessarily staying in Scotland. I don't care if our young players play league1 or English championship etc. As long as it's first team football that has a proper competitive edge. You ever watched highlights of youth football, it's rubbish. I doubt it even compares well to the Scottish championship. Not sure what your rambling on about with the Armstrong point. He made a mistake v England that anyone could make. The experience he gained at utd and Celtic is what helped him become an epl player. It's about incremental steps, he got experience at utd playing every week and then played for a huge club(Celtic) where the pressure was massive. That development was what allowed him to go on and do well for Southampton. If anything hes another example of why playing lower league football develops a young player. Not sure I get your point about Ben doak either. Wouldn't you rather he got experience every week at 17/18 even if it's English championship or spl? To me that would be better for him than not playing. The defenders in the English championship would be massively better than the youth players he's playing against in the epl youth leagues. Most of the greatest attacking talents spent a season or 2 playing lower league football developing their skills against lesser opponents before stepping up a level. Guys like robben, mane, ibrahimovic etc all spent seasons getting experience in weaker leagues like the Austrian or Dutch leagues. I always laugh when ppl think someone like doak is too good to play spl or English championship. I know the excitement goes to ppls heads in here when a talent like doak or gilmour comes along but if you think these guys are guaranteed to be superstars and are too good to slum it at a lower level for a few seasons learning their trade then you are massively mistaken. I would say 80 percent of world class players in the last 30 years spent time playing in weaker leagues before they stepped up a level. It's what helps them develop and gain experience. I also find it strange you are using Ben doak and Celtic as an example of bypassing the Scottish league. Celtic have had a constant conveyor belt of young players who played there and then went onto bigger things. Van dijk, dembele, Armstrong, Tierney, frimpong, Édouard, juranovic. Personally I would love to see doak go back on loan to Celtic for a season. I think it would help him develop and hone his game. He's very raw and doesn't always have a great end product. Its highly unlikely he becomes a first team regular at Liverpool until improvements are made to his game.

Step up from what? He wasnt playing any first team football at Chelsea or rangers. Maybe the training facilities, youth coaching etc, were a step up from rangers but if he had gotten regular first team football at rangers then would he have developed more than playing youth football at chelsea? Imo he would be much further along in his development had he played a couple of seasons at rangers or in the English championship. Can you maybe explain why none of our other young players benefit from the so called "step up" that elite clubs provide? Only mctominay has made the grade in 20 years out of dozens of youngsters. Elite clubs fail to develop our young players. That's a statistical fact and it surprises me ppl still insist that they should go to these clubs and waste away in their youth set ups. I could understand the reasoning behind it if there were even a handful of success stories but it's the lower league route that is were our best players have come from. I also don't see gilmour as anything special yet either. I have seen him look terrible for Norwich and chelsea and he has only really started to excel for Brighton recently. He still has much to prove and personally I think Chelsea stunted his development and only now that hes at a lower epl club is he starting to get the proper first team experience that will turn him into a good player. Also I doubt gilmour was ever going to slate the Chelsea youth set up while he was in it which is when the video was made.

Villa would be my choice. Great manager who is getting the best out of mcginn. I think Tierney would really excel there.

If man utd loan him out straight away then great. An English league 2 side or Scottish championship side that will play him every week would be ideal. But if they just keep him in the youth set up playing youth football every week for a couple of years then I don't believe that will help his career much. The lad looks good enough play lower league football even at 17 and should make sure that he does so that his career doesn't stagnate. Its much better for him than youth football imo. Liam Morrison is probably learning more at Wigan this season than he ever will playing in Bayern's youth team. Just sick of seeing young Scottish talent go to epl sides and never make the grade when I am positive that if they had played a few seasons of spl or league1 in England they would be then ready to jump up to epl level. It's been proven time and again by the fact our top players all went down that route except 1(mctominay). Saying that Money wise he will have to take the offer because he might never get big bucks again.

Celtics a huge club but they are far from elite these days. The spl is a low level of football imo. It's pretty much akin to league 1 in England for the most part if you take away the old firm. Tierney got gametime in the spl and it helped his development. Him and guys like mcginn and pretty much all of our squad got gametime at lower levels such as the spl or English championship/league1 and it developed their career better than the guys who were at elite clubs.

Eh? Tierney played spl for a few seasons before he moved to arsenal. Hes a perfect example of what I am saying. Even gilmour is debatable. His career is only just starting to really take off since he left Chelsea. It was touch and go there wether he would make it in the epl. Hopefully a few seasons at Brighton will really help his development but personally I don't think being at Chelsea helped him that much. I think he would be much further along had he played a couple of seasons in the English championship or for a lower half epl club when he 18-20. Mctominays probably the only example of one of our youth players coming through at an elite club and making it to the first team.

Hackneys goal. I know he's switched back to England but I still think theres a massive chance he plays for us. If there was injuries to McLean and gilmour he would surely be in line for a call up to the euro squad. Would be a big decision for him to make as a major tournament is a big incentive for a player who might never make one with England.

Well he was starting games at the age of 16 which is pretty much unheard of for a goalkeeper at any pro level. Seen some highlights of him and he has made some good saves. Dunno if it's queen's parks defence that is shit or if he was at fault for their poor defensive record. Either way I would much rather he goes to a club where he will get games. He looks brilliant for a 17 year old and I prefer our young talents to be playing proper football from a young age as I think it's the best tool for developing them.

If he was first choice for queen's park in league 1 I would prefer that to youth football. Hes only 17, if he can play a couple of seasons at league1/Scottish championship level and then move onto an English championship side that would be better than pissing about in man utds youth set up for a few seasons imo. Obviously money talks and man utd will be able to offer much more money and he would be right to take it but as we have seen for years elite clubs do very little when it comes to developing our players. He looks like a special talent and I would like to see him exposed to first team football from a young age as it's by far the best method for producing top players.