mccaughey85

Why was catholic nationalists fighting against each other? Please dont say because of partition because that doesnt get to the root cause. They fought because a large section of their population in the north wanted to be british and they were divided on wether to partition the country and accept this partition long term. If there was no british/unionist group in the north wanting to be british then do you think partition would have happened and would there have still been a civil war?

Lol you picked up on nothing. You shouldnt wrongly assume that i have never heard of the irish civil war. You are showing your ignorance. It was a simple crossing of wires which happens when you are discussing and responding to several different ppl at once. As i said partition isnt the root cause of the civil war and it isnt the root cause of any of the fighting in ireland. Partition is merely a by product of two groups who have different ideologies and identities that want different things. You have to ask yourself what caused partition? If you can answer that then you will understand the root cause of partition.

Its an easy question that any nationalist who seriously understands the huge step we are taking should be able to answer. You and anyone else can ask me any question you like on here and i will give you a straight answer. If i cant give a straight answer then i usually ask myself why. Usually the reason is because its an uncormfortable truth that i dont wish to confront. If your answer is a simple no and you would rather not have independence ever then just say that. Its a question david78 was able to answer and i respect that fact that he doesnt want long term independence for scotland if it means redrawing the border. For me its different, the thought of never having some form of independence is unacceptable and devastating to the point of accepting a small border change that allows us to walk away with 85%of our country and includes what i consider is the most important parts that make scotland what it is. Here are some questions that i would appreciate you and other nationalists(of which i am one)on here to answer? 1. If we win independence with a slim majority of say 52 or 53 percent do you think that its over and we dont need to worry about ever rejoining the uk? My answer is no its far from over. Moving the country forward on such a slim margin means we will have an uncertain future for a long time with the possibility of rejoining the uk. If indy scotland isnt an instant success then the ppl of scotland will easily swing back to wanting in the union especially when theres a core of ppl who love the union abd being british and another section of our soceity who are willing to switch sides at the drop of a hat depending on money. 2. If you answered no are you willing to accept rejoining the uk if a majority want to? The thought of rejoining is simply not an option for me, its why i am reluctant to go forward on such slim margins knowing we easily could be straight back in after a 5/10 years. 3. Do you think we are like other countries gaining independence from britain and can you tell me which of these countries naturally produce pro british ppl in the way scotland does? Simply put we are a very different situation to any other country looking to get independence from the britain. We are huge part of britain and we were the british empire. We produced many pro british ppl who went out and committed atrocities in the name of britishness. The the only countries that naturally produce pro british ppl are england,wales and scotland. Ireland has a pro british population because guess what we scots colonised the north and put a group of ppl who consider themselves british into that country. 4. If we gain independence do you think it will be an instant success? I personally have my doubts, we will have to put large amounts of our budget into creating a new army, navy etc. Lots of money will need to be spent on embassies and things like setting up a hmrc equivalent. The first 5 to 10 years could be critical to the long term success and it could be disaster on some of these issues. That wouldnt bother me i am happy to plow through but other scots have shown to be crumbly cunts who get scared at the least bit of inconvenience. Thats one of the problems when you have a population who treat independence like choosing what outfit to wear. Sad fact is the patriotism of many scots just isnt there for us to secure our future long term. If it was then 55 percent would not have voted no last time and the polls would not be showing that we will vote no again which they currently are. 5. If we win on a margin of say 52 percent and indy is not an instant success do you think there will be a majority looking to rejoin the uk? If no then why? Imo in those circumstances if scotland isnt an instant success we will swing straight back to a unionist majority. My idea of redrawing the border was mostly at first a throwaway suggestion that i knew most nationalists in here would hate and would consider ludicrous but what it has done is made me realise how out of touch many are on independence and how our population think regarding it. The idea that a huge majority are itching for it and that its only a small minority who are loyal to britain both baffles me and worries me.

Ok fair enough. Either way ireland has been at war constantly for hundreds of years, civil war is pretty much the norm there. Also i have said in my previous post that i disagree with partition in ireland. Ireland clearly has a pro unification majority if you take the country as a whole. Not only that the population that is loyal to britain is not even indigenous to ireland. Guess what country this ultra british group are mostly indigenous to? SCOTLAND

So basically you would accept us never having independence over a very small boundary change? Fair enough, i fully understand that i am one of the few who would accept a boundary change but for me i desperately want independence and the thought of us never getting it is completely soul destroying to the point i would be willing to make a compromise that gets us 85% of our country back and the opportunity to be alot harsher on hardline british in our country to the point where we never have to worry about rejoining the uk ever again. To some on here that opinion is strange but i also find it strange that you and others could handle the prospect of us never getting independence. That is something that is unacceptable to me.

Partition certainly never helped the situation but its not the root cause of the centuries of civil war in ireland. Partition and civil war happened because a huge amount of irish wanted to remain british. Its a war over identity and nationalism and even if partition never happened then the protestants in the north would still want to be british and would likely have fought against being taken out of britain. If it was only partition that caused civil war in ireland then why were they fighting a civil war for centuries before that?

Its an easy question that dave78 answered. Its a question i myself can quite happily answer yet you and probably most others on here will avoid it. I usually find when someone avoids or wont answer a simple question like the one i asked is usually because they dont want to face up to the truth. Theres a good chance Scotland might never go independent. We have not got the numbers and its something we the nationalists will probably have to accept eventually unless something drastic changes. More and more english come to scotland every year and we could be in a situation where unionism starts increasing to the point where we are back to a 70/30 split in favour of the staying in the uk. All we had to do last time was tick a box and we were still too pussy. That tells me that we are either pussies or we like being british or both. Either way being delusional about it wont get us anywhere.

I have read plenty on the partition of ireland. I have said in my post above that i dont agree with it in ireland. Ireland is a different situation from scotland. As is all the countries who gained indy from the british empire(us).

Well thats debatable. Ireland has seen civil war for the last 400 years or more. The idea that partition caused the civil war is not really true. The country has always been divided and could still be divided for a very long time. Interestingly one of the reasons they have been so divided is down to scots colonising the north and pledging their allegiance to britain and basically considering themselves ultra british. Perhaps if ppl in here read some history about ireland they might realise that lowland scotland has produced brit loyalists for hundreds of years and the idea that they are some tiny minority in scotland is quite frankly laughable and delusional. Personally i dont think partition works in ireland or is fair. Usually polls in the republic tend to show at least a 70/30 split in favour of reunification. Polls in the north tend to be slightly in favour of remaining british. Overall ireland must be at least 60/40 in favour of reunification which is pretty amazing considering that the threat of war in the north is still a realistic possibility. Imagine how pro unification they would be if they didnt have to worry about loyalists starting a war. This idea that scotland is like other commonwealth countries seeking independence from britain is simply not true. We benefitted hugely from the empire and were willing participants in its atrocities and expansion. We are also a part of the island of britain which will mean a certain section of the population will always have on some level a connection to it wether thats hardline or not. We are not some oppressed nation seeking to gain independence, we are a nation who has 2 different identities who clash about what they want the country to be and what they feel is best for the country.

You keep on calling me mcgaughey. Why? You also still havent answered my question. I will ask the question to again to all the nationalists in this thread? If you had the choice between never getting an independent scotland or the choice of a smaller indy scotland that had a long term future(100 years or more) then what would choose? I doubt anyone will have the guts to answer this question. Most seem to want to blindly cry freedom and pretend that scotland will vote yes despite the last referendum and the recent polls showing we probably wont. Delusion wont win us our country back.

Lol i can see my proposal is not very popular which is what i expected tbf. For the record its not something i want but its sadly not looking likely that we win independence based on the current polls. I also find it worrying that most of the nationalists responding on this thread think we have a small number of unionists in scotland. Its delusional to think we have a small minority of unionists. If that were the case we wouldnt have lost the last referendum and the current polls would show a large majority for indy. Being delusional about this is not going to help us and will only stop us from addressing the problem.

Theres also alot of soft yes voters who can be swayed over to no.

Not sure where that stats come from but i have seen ones that say lower than 30%. Either way 70 percent voting unionist is not great reading and it puts us an instant disadvantage.

Either way theres massive support for the union from both and the idea that it just goes away after independence is highly unlikely. Not sure what your point is regarding aberdeenshire farmers. Unionists from all walks of life just need to vote for the union and they will get the union if they get a majority.

Yeh your oo and no surrender types are a small minority but there are other hardcore unionists who have nothing to do with these organisation. The unionist population in scotland isnt just some small minority. Its possibly a third plus there is many who dont mind being in the union and will prefer to stay in unless an indy scotland is an instant success. Trying to kid ourselves that scotland has a small minority in favour of the union is simply not true and the polls and referendum showed this to be not true.

Your underestimating how many hardcore unionists and scottish ppl happy to be in the union we have. The idea that its few oddball nutters here and there is strange. Up until recent times scotland had only 30 percent wanting indy. The idea that we are a massive majority and have always been is simply not true. Its a divide thats not just going to fade away once we get indy, i find it odd that ppl in here think its as easy as that.

Lets be honest most of the english ppl in scotland want scotland to remain in the uk. Its been shown that something like 75+ percent vote no. Australias a different situation altogether. They aint attached to britain by land. The situation here runs deeper due to us being on the island of britain. Bolshe acts lol. They will have the right to form a unionist party and vote for what they want. The idea that they get thrown out is daft and unrealistic. They are here to stay and wont be going anywhere. Freedom of speech is something indy scotland will likely have and unionism wont just disappear because us nationalist say so.

Military aspect is still huge regardless of what way you spin it. A new navy, army and raf is huge for us, creating new air bases and building navy ships. New airplanes etc. Many scots will still want to join the british military which may undermine the newly formed scottish militarys. Whatever way you look at it its huge and the scottish ppl have been shown to be pussies about the slightest changes things like pensions and currency etc. We can manage passports and embassies but its still a big jump for many scots and many will choose to keep a british passport. Many scots will choose to remain british in general creating a big divide between both sides. You think the currency situation will be that easy? You are saying that back in the 70s 79 percent were happy with being british and being in the union. That to me is worrying stat. It shows that scotland potentially can be a very pro union country if it suits us. Whats stopping it going back to that number. Recent polls over the couple of years or so have actually seen a dip in independence back down to 50 percent. How do you know that it wont dip further and further. Having a previous history 79 percent in favour of the union is not a plus point. I think its worrying that you and other nationalists on here underestimate the changes we are undertaking with independence and its all very well the likes of me and you bashing on with it but a large percentage of scotland are far too scared of these changes and will opt back in as soon as the going gets tough.

In theory thats great, sign me up. In reality its unlikely we see a mass exodus from scotland to england. Infact theres a decent chance more english keep coming up to scotland(regardless of indy). It feels like more and more choose to come to scotland every year. We already have nearly 9 percent who are english born in scotland. Probably nearly 10 percent of the electorate are english born as well.

Doing it again? I am giving you simple questions that are easy to answer. They are questions that i am happy to answer myself.

So if its not an instant success will you be willing to accept us rejoining the uk if the majority want to? Theres a real chance that it wont be an instant success. We have huge changes to make and alot could go wrong. Currency is one that worries me, as soon as any problems arise when it comes to money alot of ppl instantly panick. If the uk say there will be no shared currency then suddenly the unionists have a majority again. Thats the problem with making such a huge change with nearly half the country against it.

Brexit is a world away from our situation. We are looking at forming new military's of army, navy and raf. Then we have new passports and embassies to set up in foreign countries. We have currency situation that could prove tricky if the uk decides to be cunts. Its a huge step for the scottish ppl and if its not done right or if its not an instant success then we are easily looking at a majority wanting back into the uk. Brexit is nothing like scottish independence. We are breaking something much deeper and essentially it comes down more to self identity than just being in a union. Failing to recognise this is worrying because i think alot of indy supporters assume its going to be plain sailing even if we get a slim majority. Simply it wont be. Its a situation thats deep rooted and we will struggle with unless we have a big majority in favour of independence.

Tbf i have said numerous times that its a far out idea and i dont expect it to ever happen or expect scottish nationalists to like it. As i said its an option i personally would consider over a newly independent scotland being dragged back into the uk by hardline unionists and ppl disillusioned by independence. I want the whole of scotland to go independent with a 60+ majority and a secure future as an independent country but the polls consistently show that we are not in that position and its probably unlikely we ever hit 60+ consistently. Therefore we are looking a unpredictable future as an independent country. Are you happy to go forward with 48 percent of the country not wanting indy and a possibility of going back into the uk in the near future?

No i am not suggesting that but its clear that the independence debate is potentially not going away after we get independence. If you want a situation where we go in and out of the uk then fair enough. Its unlikely we get 60 or more percent in favour which means that unionism is something we will struggle to deal with after independence. Do you think the unionists will just fade away overnight?

Its not many miles in the distance. Its a situation that could be in the very near future. What kind of bills/laws are you suggesting? What do we make independence water tight and how do we prevent another referendum to rejoin. If a unionist party come to power in scotland in the first 10/15 years of independence then i can nearly guarantee westminster wont say no us rejoining and having another referendum.