Diamond Scot
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Posts posted by Diamond Scot
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5 minutes ago, Malcolm said:
Much rather he was at hearts playing first team football. Fine if he is going to Bayern to play in their first team.. look all the pish talked on here about Ryan Gauld and that other one, can’t even remember his name, at Real Madrid. Done f all.
Its very easy to talk about players at top clubs who didnt make it however I could name many many more players who played for Hearts or other SPFL clubs who didnt become top class.
Answer me this. Which club have produced more top class players through their youth systems. Bayern Munich or Hearts?
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16 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:
I think first team football even at spl level can be a better teaching tool than playing youth football at a top club. The evidence shows that out of about 20 young players we have had at big European clubs 1 will make it.
Playing meaningful games where getting three points is a good learning experience. Players need to learn to take the pressure of having to get results which is much more intense than in youth football. The very things you have pointed out as drawbacks are actually why it is best to get first team football as a young player.
He would learn alot at Bayern but it's not the necessarily the better option for the guys career at this point in time imo, as shown by the fact only 1 of our players in 15 years has come through a top clubs youth set up.
In the last 15 years we have had 2 players come through at top 4 sides. Gilmour and McTomminay. We have had 1 work their way to a top 4 side. Robertson.
Pressure is the worst thing for a learning enviroment. You need the skills and technique before you can handle the pressure and do the job properly.
Its why all the top clubs invest in youth systems so heavily.
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Are we not looking at this the wrong way around. Being in a big teams setup doesnt mean that you will defo make it as a big player. In the same way not being in a big teams setup doesnt mean you wont make it as a big player.
The question is where is the best place to learn your trade? My opinion is that its at the places that can afford to invest the most amount of time and money in you.
Compare Hearts setup to Bayerns. Compare what he would be doing on a day to day basis. Compare who his "teachers" would be. Compare who his peers would be. Compare who is on close hand to watch and learn from. Compare the respective records of nurturing and producing world class players.
If the answer to the above is Hearts then fair enough. I just dont agree.
Whilst there is some merit in the argument that 1st team football is beneficial look at the goals of his coach at Hearts. Everything is aimed at getting the 3 points on game day. At a youth team its all about making the players better for the future demands of 1st team football. Players are not only allowed to try new things, they are encouraged. They can learn without the fear of dropping points, fans being on their backs or getting dropped etc
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44 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:
With Hickeys case I think first team football would be more beneficial to his career as its unlikely he will ever make it at a top level club like bayern or Liverpool etc. If he went to one of those clubs right now I reckon he would just spend 2/3 years in their youth set up and then would be back to the spl or English championship. With Gilmour it was different, he is a genuine talent who looks like he could be the best in position in a few years and he's been fast tracked by Chelsea.
I think for a player like Hickey first team football would do him alot more good than playing youth football despite these clubs having better coaches and facilities. First team football does a player in Hickeys situation alot more good imo even though its at a low standard.
We have had only 2 young players come through at top clubs in the past 15 years which would suggest that all the great facilities and great coaching isn't making as big a difference as it should. We have only had mctominay and potentially Gilmour come through. I could probably name 15 or more of the top of my head that haven't made the grade.
Guys like Mcginn, armstrong and snodgrass played first team football at a young age and have progressed to become good epl players. Tbh Hickey will be lucky to hit those levels no matter what path he chooses but I think his best path to it is to stay at spl level for a couple more seasons before he decides to move south. He would only be 20 and wouldn't have wasted 2 years playing youth football.
Not disagreeing with regards to Hickey but interested to hear what you think could learn during these 2 years? Is he likely to come up against any players of real skill, pace or ability? Is he likely to have a programme put in place to develop him with Hearts?
Big clubs obviously see something in him. I think he would be more likely to learn playing against Germanys up and coming stars and getting access to all the things I mentioned.
Its interesting to hear what Tierney is saying about Arsenal and playing in the EPL. Simply put, training with and playing against top players makes you a better player. All aspects of his game need to improve or they are punished in a way that they just arent in Scotland.
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14 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:
I suppose it comes down to our opinions on Hickey, I think he's a decent player who could maybe make it in a lower half epl team in several years. Phil foden is a special talent who will play at the top level for years to come. That's why foden gets gametime for man City and why Hickey wouldn't.
I believe hickeys best route til lower epl level is to play professional football at spl level for a couple more seasons and then when he's 20/21 make the move to a lower epl club or a good English championship club.
The evidence and statistics for young Scots making it through epl/foreign youth set ups is extremely poor, maybe even as bad as 1/20. That suggests that with all the good coaching and all the money spent its still not working for our young players.
Our successes recently have been guys like Armstrong, snodgrass, Mcginn. These guys spent a fair chunk of their early careers playing first team football at a relatively low level in Scotland before they moved. Even a guy like burke might of benefitted from staying put at forest and playing championship football for a couple of seasons instead of going to leipzig and struggling.
Going to an epl club or a big European club just to play in their youth set up is not massive success that alot on here seem to think it is. The evidence from the last 15 years clearly shows we our young players don't break through at that level.
For what its worth ive never seen anything in Hickey that makes me think he will be a top player. My comments are more a general opinion.
I like Armstrong, McGinn and Snodgrass but they are perfect examples of the decent footballers I was talking about. To qualify we need guys like them plus 2 or 3 top players.
EPL youth football isnt the best but at that age its about development over game time. There was a thing called a day with Gilmour when he was about 16 ay Chelsea. The level of specific detail that goes into these kids development is unreal and way above what you probably see at any SPFL first teams. He had tailored diet, tailored gym sessions, tailored DVD analysis not only of his own game but of other top players who he could learn technique from, a tailored improvement plan which setout all the techniques and a traffic light system of where he was at and needed to improve. It is no wonder that when players break through at these teams they seem ready made.
Its not to say its a sure thing as alot of kids wont progress but what these clubs do is give them the best possible chance.
Just look at the calibre of coaches. Bayern have Martin Demichelis and Miroslav Close as their U19 and U17 coaches. Who do you think a young player can learn more from? Them or Robbie Neilson and Lee McCulloch?
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6 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:
Our young players barely ever make the grade at big clubs, would be better getting a couple of years playing football rather than going to some big European club and playing youth football which is a pretty low standard of football. Fair enough Gilmour and mctominay have made it but I could name you another 20 who haven't.
Tierneys situation is completely different to Hickeys, Tierney spent his early career getting gametime and experience and had moved to arsenal with the understanding he would be playing first team football. If anything he's an example of not moving too soon and gaining first team experience albeit at a lower standard. If Hickey moves to a top European club or even a lower epl club he will be chucked straight into their youth set up. That's not always the best move imo. Just look at Tony gallacher, signed by Liverpool from Falkirk at 18 and hasn't played first team football yet since he moved.
We have had plenty of young players at top clubs and loads more at average epl clubs and barely any of them make the grade. Hickey moving to one of these clubs could just stifle his development whereas first team football in Scotland might help him develop much like it did to guys like Mcginn and Armstrong etc.
Personally I don't see the big fuss over Hickey, he looks very average to me and I don't think he has the speed or athletic physique for top level football. I will happy be proved wrong though.
Thats my point though. Staying in Scotland is the safe option that we have been doing for years. Lots of young players can stay in Scotland until early 20s then move to England and end up at lower EPL / top end Championship but we have loads of those players and they arent difference makers.
If any young player moves to a top club in a top league early then they benefit from all the things money buys at these clubs. Top coaches, sports science etc etc. Most top clubs have more qualified and talented coaches in charge of their youth teams than we have in our main teams. When you take into account facilities, coaches, sports science etc, id bet more cash is spent on Bayern under 17s per player than 1st team players at establisged SPFL teams like Motherwell.
Yes most of these players wont make it however the ones that are potentially european or world class. Look at the smaller nations who compete international level. They have 3 or 4 top players, 4 or 5 average players and the rest just space fillers.
We fill our teams with average players in the grand scheme of things. Guys like McFadden, Brown, Miller, Naismith, Caldwell etc.
Years 16-20 are key in development. Game time isnt the be all and end all. Look at Phil Foden. Only plays for city as a bit part but tipped to be world class. Why, because he is learning his trade.
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Id rather Hickey move to Bayern or Bologna and risk doing a Feruz than remaining at Hearts until he is 21, playing a full season against utter dross then if Hearts get promoted the next season against slightly better players.
We have churned out SPFL standard players / lower EPL / High championship players for years. Our squad depth of these types of players has always been high.
What we lack is top end players where basically we have had Darren Fletcher and now Andy Robertson over past 20 years.
We need to get high volume numbers of youths into the best setups in the hope that some Gilmours and McTomminays come through.
If we can reguarly start to have 4 or 5 players playing with top 6 sides in best 5 leagues and compliment them with our normal standard of player then we will have a much better chance of doing something as a team.
Also, the more our players move and become a success the more clubs will start to take a chance on our other players and pay more for them in turn.
Tierney is a classic example. He was the best player in Scotland. If he failed at Arsenal what would that have said the next time a player was good up here. The fact he is now proving himself raises the profile of the likes of Christie etc imo.
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Tierney is a full back or at a stretch left sided CB.
Play him where we are weakest out of those 2 positions. If Robertson is fit then he plays LB.
If we have 2 semi decent cb's but no RB then play him at RB. If somebody comes through at RB but we are struggling at CB then play him there. He will always be one of our better defenders so will always get a start. No point changing formations or playing him in midfield.
Playing RB for a left footed player isnt a huge change. Tierney is a natural defender. His positioning and tackling wont be affected by playing RB. Its only really his ability to cross that is lessoned which given we dont play a system that relies on crossing shouldnt be a problem.
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I posted my thoughts on changes to the game on another thread recently but I truly dont think Scottish football will improve until it moves to a model that is totally alien to us and therefore wont ever happen.
We need to seperate full time and part time clubs, we need to make it a rule that a certain percentage of tv money or revenue is spent on youth development, we need to provide stability to clubs regarding relegation (make it easier to move between championship and prem both in terms of promotion / relegation but also in terms of reducing the gap in finances between the 2 leagues)
To do the above would be a radical shakeup which so many people would be against so will never happen so we will be left with fans calling for a bigger league despite their own clubs not wanting it due to finance.
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1 hour ago, Kirk said:
You are saying being less active as you're in the house, but if you are saving time on travel then use the other half hour or so to go for a walk in the morning or a run, I've been trying to gradually increase my exercise again as I've been so lazy. Missing fives though
Defo harder with a 7 month old than it was previously. I really need squash to open again although no sign of that yet.
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Working from home is cheaper. No travel costs, reduced food costs, reduction in work clothes etc. If you get flexi time like me then you can also commit less hours to the working day and build up more time. Ive never been able to build up flexi previously but im saving an hour a day travel so im adding half an hour onto my work day per day which has allowed me to take flexi days.
The flip side is that at times you are very isolated, I feel my physical health suffered as I dont move about as much and wellbeing is certainly affected as its abit like groundhog day / cabin fever.
A huge plus for me is getting to see my new son all day every day. Even if he is in the other room most of the day. Being at home has been a godsend and im grateful for not missing anything.
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One thing that I think is overlooked with home working is when somebody nee joins the company or team. Even if its possible to train the person remotely its likely that they wont have any bond with their co-workers.
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9 minutes ago, Stu101 said:
I think they will have a couple of players lined up in the background. Given they all seem to be french based, at least they will have had some form of pre season. Greg Stewart will probably play that roll on Saturday, if he is away
Having Stewart as your starting forward in a game against a top 4 side would worry me.
Rangers biggest problem last year was scoring goals in tight games. If anything they are weaker in that position this season.
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Surely selling your top scorer and most valuable player only a few days before the league starts when your only backup is out with a hamstring injury for an unknown time would be madness.
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5 hours ago, Rolling hIlls said:
Ok. As moron to moron. If I sat at a bar with you singing a sectarian song and only you got lifted what would the sheriff say if it ever went to court. Believe me I have been there. Sang Flower of Scotland one night with my pal and we went outside over for a kebab. The police lifted him. I went down as his witness. It got laughed out of court. That is a true story. We spent our expenses in the Black Bitch. My point is that if you arrest one guy for singing a sectarian song about the IRA or UDA then you would have to lift them all. That would never stand up in court my friend. It is about education. Rangers and Celtic are trying hard but it will take a long time. 3rd Glenlivet on the way. Scotland Forever.
I can 100% say that this is not how court works. Police reguarly pick out a handful of people from crowds and there is no such defence in law as "everybody was doing it".
The defence with regards to singing is almost always that the behaviour doesnt meet the required S38 or BoP test. Ie that it wasnt threatening or abusive and didnt cause fear or alarm.
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5 hours ago, vanderark14 said:
Try to not get upset when someone disagrees with you. I dont rate forrest for scotland and never have.
Fraser plays a lot on the left, i havent denied that but he has also played on the right. In my opinion he is better than forrest, i also believe armstrong and christie are better playrs for scotland. Deepite being out of position i believe theyd both play better than forreat
Forrest isnt the same player when he pulls on a scotland shirt.
Shouldnt the manager focus on how to bring that standard of play out of him when he plays for Scotland rather than just discard him?
If a players got talent and plays well for their club side then we cant afford to chuck them away. I wouldnt start Forrest but on his day he is an asset.
On another note where has this Tierney csnt play / doesnt want to play right back come from. Defensively he has played well anytime he has played there for us. Biggest issue is he cant cross with his right foot but given that we only play 1 up top and generally dont look to score from crosses I dont see this as being a major issue.
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1 hour ago, Return of Yermaw said:
of course it is not but it keeps getting trotted out time and time again. Also, if x was half decent then the likes of Sheffield Utd would pay £20m for him - again simplistic tosh.There are a host of reasons why players are playing for their current teams. As a football fan you simply have to look at their touch and their ability to know their level rather than thinking someone looks pretty decent but need a major club to make a hefty bid for him to justify your assessment.
We will see how Shankland gets on next season and whether he has found his level or is on an upward trajectory. at the same time I wonder if McBurnie would score goals for fun for Dundee Utd - I very much doubt it.
If there was a Scottish striker playing in the league of Ireland or League of Wales and scoring on average 2 goals a game and looking brilliant. Miles faster and more skillful than the defenders.
Would you call them up ahead of Shankland?
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2 hours ago, romanticscot said:
Saying McBurnie was worth 20 mill but people not willing to pay 2-4 million for Shankland means those in the know believe McBurnie is far better - 5 to 10 times better is not how this works. There probably two dozen factors that go into a transfer fee - length of current contract, age, competition after that same player, league, state of financial of selling club, ambition of selling club, length of transfer window for selling club to get a replacement if needed, reluctance of player to be open to leave and probably a bunch I am not aware of. Shankland has performed consistently for the past three years - if he gets 15 goals in the Scottish Premiership this year, more caps and a few more international goals then there will be offers coming in for him, of that I have no doubt.
Im not saying McBurnie is 5 times better than Shankland. All im saying is that teams have extensive scouting networks. Every club in the UK will be aware of Shankland. Dundee utd have previously stated he wouldnt be sold for buttons but pretty much everybody was qouting around 3million being the price they would be looking at plus add ons.
Clubs didnt put in that level of offer. A club did however spend 20m on McBurnie. Do you think Sheffield Utd would spend 17m extra on McBurnie if they thought Shankland was better?
I rate Shankland but he is untested at even a decent level. Even if he scores goals in the Prem, thats still nowhere near the level of the EPL or any other major league.
As said previously, assesing somebodys ability is all relative. Somebodys touch might look great at one level but not good at a higher level. You only need to look at the difference in pace that McTomminy fires in his passes compared to other Scottish midfielders to see that.
I play with an ex pro who is lightyears ahead of the rest of us in terms of touch and movement etc. He looks like a superstar but put him into Man Utd training and he would look like he had never seen a football before.
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2 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:
Yeh one throw away comment has condemned him to being hated. Society is becoming really sensitive. He constantly shows up for squads, to me he's committed albeit he's been poor when played but that's a different discussion.
Exactly. It seems we dont judge people on actions anymore. The ironic thing is that there will be those in the TA elite who dislike him yet travel to the country of the game but remain in the pub cause they suddenly cant be arsed to go to the game, or turn up 15 mins etc.
I dont think he has been great for Scotland however is still young and inexperienced at that level. What is a fact though is that he is the forward who is playing at the highest lever week in week out and also the forward who has commanded the highest transfer fee.
People in football thought McBurnie was worth 20m and the same people dont think Shankland is worth spending 2-4m on. That says it all for me on where these players are at in this moment.
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You simply cant compare players playing in SPFL with those in EPL or any other top league.
Shankland might score goals for fun but its against part time or journeymen. Even if he does it in the Prem, it will be against defenders of limited ability. Somebody like McBurnie is coming up against VVD or other internaitional defefeners for top nations week in week out. Obviously its harder for him to shine.
In the same way Findlay or Gallagher look decent in the Prem whereas Hanley has some questionable moments in the EPL. Difference is that Findlay is up against the likes of Dykes, Cosgrove etc whereas Hanley is up against Augero and Rashford.
Even things like how athletic a player is looks different. The slow defenders in the EPL are likely still faster than the fast players in SPFL. I remember thinking Robert Huth was a carthorse then seeing him in a pre season friendly where he looked rapid compared to everybody else.
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Where has this myth that McBurnie isnt interested in playing for Scotland come from becuase it doesnt stand it.
McBurnie played all through the Scottish youth system, went on a totally pointless and long end of season trip to Mexico to play meaningless friendlys with what was effectively a B squad and has turned up consistently to squads even though he hasnt always started or even came off the bench in games.
The boy made 1 daft joke with his mates that was caught on camera which on the face of it was derogatory of Scotland. However how many of us have slagged Scotland over the years. I reguarly joke that we are rubbish but doesnt stop me going to games or being less committed.
Question his ability if you must but lets not just make stuff up to suit our agenda.
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3 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:
No third kit this season.
Had white in the past with no issues.
Celtic and possibly St Mirren the only two that would clash I'd think and their away strips wouldn't be a clash.
Was a genuine question based on there being a good bit of white in the home top aswell.
Im not sure how the strip choice rules go. For example if you drew Ayr in the cup away from home and Ayr insisted on wearing home top but ref said both Killie tops clashed. Would Ayr be forced to wear their away strip?
I could be wrong but theres something at back of my mind about St Johnstone kits cpl of years back. Home was blie with white sleeves and away was the reverse. Neither were suitable for playing Rangers.
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2 hours ago, Debian said:
No?
You think that if the opposition is wearing white that Killie will be allowed to wear home top?
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Will the Killie away not clash with the home which means a 3rd kit will be required?
Scottish player transfers
in TA specific
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Gilmour burst onto the scene at Chelsea and his displays have shown more in those handful of appearences than 5 seasons in the SPFL.
I agree though, moving to a big club is nothing to get our hopes up over but its a start. Its like getting accepted into a top University. It doesnt mean you will end up with a top degree but increases your chances over a poorer establishment.
The chances are that if you are 21 and playing first team football for Hibs / Hearts etc that the best you can realistically hope for is mid table EPL. Robertson being the exception in the past 20 years. Morrison most likely wont make it at Bayern but 1 thing is for sure. If he does make it then he will be a world class defender who will be a million times better than his peers at Scotland youth level who got 1st team football in the Scottish Championship or for teams like Ross County.
Id rather 100 of our promising kids went to top clubs and 95% of them completely failed as that would mean we would have 5 players who were real quality. Its that quality that gets you to tournaments rather than finishing 3rd all the time.