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Freeedom

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Posts posted by Freeedom

    Indyref 2 (2)

    in Anything Goes - Other topics not covered elsewhere

    Posted

    16 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

    Especially when they have previously managed the club and been ineffective at best. 

    Another leadership contest. At least by retaining my membership I can have another say but if no one is nominated that I feel is competent for the job I wont bother voting. Picking the best of a bad bunch is pointless plus I am not encouraging a party that just makes the same mistakes again.  

    Now you're getting it.

    Indyref 2 (2)

    in Anything Goes - Other topics not covered elsewhere

    Posted

    On 2/1/2024 at 7:36 AM, TDYER63 said:

    Totally agree.

    I would like to know the grand plan of the ‘dont vote for the SNP ‘  independence supporters. 
    Do people really think that ‘teaching them a wee lesson’ is in any way going to advance independence? When Labour are back in power in the UK and Scotland and supported by anti independence parties on all sides . 
    I would like someone to elaborate on how this is going to work.

     

     

    Would you like to explain to me how voting for the SNP is going to get us independence? They clearly don't have a clue, or any plan of action. 

    If the SNP get hammered at the next election they will have to have a reset and listen to the thousands of independence voters that have abandoned them, they are beholden to the voters... we don't owe them anything.

    Indyref 2 (2)

    in Anything Goes - Other topics not covered elsewhere

    Posted

    11 minutes ago, aaid said:

    A new poll out today shows majority support for independence.

    Seems like the Scottish electorate like independence, they just seem to dislike the SNP right now.

    Problem is, they dislike the other pro-independence parties even more.

    How do you square this particular circle?

    Answers on a postcard to ...

    I'm in this demographic with a lot of other people. I may disagree quite a bit on policy with the likes of Hampden loon but it's pretty simple what brings us together. 

    We want independence, we need it to be front and centre and we need to see a coherent plan of how to get there with strong leadership behind a campaign. The SNP offer none of that.

    Indyref 2 (2)

    in Anything Goes - Other topics not covered elsewhere

    Posted

    This result perfectly reflects upon Sturgeons time in office, this is what she should be remembered for. 

    But like all narcissists she's now going to spend a lot of time trying to rebrand herself in the face of a disastrous legacy. 

    The independence movement has been left in tatters during the time of greatest opportunity, how very Scottish

    Indyref 2 (2)

    in Anything Goes - Other topics not covered elsewhere

    Posted

    13 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

    Do we?  I have no idea what Starmer is about to be honest 😆.  If you mean taking UK back into EU i'm all for it as it makes the trade position of independence a hell of a lot easier.

     

    Yes, Keir Starmer was one of the most vocal supporter of EU membership during the referendum campaign.

    13 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

    There is nothing wrong with having the same policy as Labour if you think it's the correct policy. Most voters in Scotland seem to agree with that policy. I hope you are correct because giving the people the chance to change their mind on the EU feeds into the idea that the people of Scotland should be given the chance to change their minds on independence. For me, the ideal situation would be for Scotland to be independent and both Scotland and RUK are in the EU. I just can't see that happening though. 

    I hope I am correct too because it's going to expose the fragility of the SNPs shitty independence strategy. The pro EU voters that they have be corralling for the last few years will start voting for a pro EU Labour party because they are not in the least bit interested in independence.

    Indyref 2 (2)

    in Anything Goes - Other topics not covered elsewhere

    Posted

    2 hours ago, Orraloon said:

    What makes you think that Starmer will take the UK back into the EU? Even if he wanted to, the electorate in England wouldn't let him. 

    I didn't say he will take the UK back into the EU, I said that he would try to do so over the course of two terms. We know what he stands for and he will drip feed the idea that "things have changed" and that "for the best interests of the British economy, the people should have the chance to change their mind I'd they want."

    We know the man will say or do anything to get into power, he had to lie to win the labour leadership contest and he has lied again to get into office as PM. Once he is in power there is nothing to hold him accountable and he can do whatever he wants, and we know what it is that he wants.

    That's my prediction, which is based on history and the character of Keir Starmer and the neoliberals in his party.

    Labour WILL win, so how is that going to affect independence strategy? They will never ever grant us a referendum either.

    Indyref 2 (2)

    in Anything Goes - Other topics not covered elsewhere

    Posted

    18 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

    It's will seem like their "whole argument" if that's the only bit you listen to.

    The SNP can't even guarantee it, but you've already decided that Labour will take the whole UK back into the EU within a decade even though they haven't even suggested that that is what they want to do? Am I getting your logic right here?

     

    No, as usual you aren't, but I don't think at any point you've made a good faith criticism of anything I've said 

    Indyref 2 (2)

    in Anything Goes - Other topics not covered elsewhere

    Posted

    22 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

    Never happening - even if he becomes PM which is doubtful

    The right wing English establishment is settled in concrete

     

     

    17 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

    Sorry I'm going to have to disagree. I don't think Labour are going to move to rejoin the EU if they get in. Even if they were secretly wishing to do so I just can't see it happening in their first term. Also the arguments for Scottish independence were valid when the rest of the UK was still in the EU and would remain equally valid if the UK rejoined.

    Time well tell. I think they will do it over the course of two terms in office. 

    The broader question is where would it leave the independence movement? The SNP are predicating their whole argument in favour of independence on rejoining the EU (something they can't even guarantee). As far as strategy goes, it's fucking bonkers. 

    Indyref 2 (2)

    in Anything Goes - Other topics not covered elsewhere

    Posted · Edited by Freeedom

    2 hours ago, StirlingEgg said:

    I think that your second point is a possibility. Frustrating that some would be content to go along with what England wants once again. I reckon the UK will dissolve or whatever at some point, no idea of timing but ironically at England's behest. This will be once they've got the security of water/power/money flowing their way first. 

    The other thread about the pipeline from Peterhead is interesting especially with the description of "between" the two areas. As though the electricity flows both ways...🤔

    Why all the sniping on here though? It's been such a funny and enlightening board. I came across the likes of Limmy and bought a Henry Hoover based on the chat here 😊

    The SNPs agenda couldn't be any clearer, where does it leave the independence campaign in Scotland when Keir Starmer starts campaigning to rejoin the EU?

    The party don't have two brain cells to rub together.

    Screenshot_20230903-125342.png

    Indyref 2 (2)

    in Anything Goes - Other topics not covered elsewhere

    Posted

    39 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

    Most reasonable thinking people, that I know, would agree that it's possible to be both at the same time. Are you saying that you think that's not the case? In which case, are you an independence person or an anti EU person?

    The party's focus is about rejoining the EU, not about being independent any more. Getting independence is a means to rejoin the EU, the mask is off. The party are targeting the middle class No voter of 2014 who cares about EU membership more than Scotland's independence. 

    Those same voters will never vote for independence once starmer becomes PM and starts talking about rejoining the EU.

    Indyref 2 (2)

    in Anything Goes - Other topics not covered elsewhere

    Posted

    2 hours ago, aaid said:

    Aside from those who you sneer at seemingly.  I’m a democrat, I’ll go with what most people want.  

    Do I need to draw a Venn diagram? The demographic that includes the most people is the one where the only requirement is support for Scottish independence, and is not also predicated on other conditionals. You're not a stupid person, you perfectly well understand this but because you're so arrogant you don't care.

    In fact, there is nobody who is more sneering and arrogant than an enlightened centrist who uses faulty logic like "because X and Y both disagree with me, that's means Z is right.". 

     

    Indyref 2 (2)

    in Anything Goes - Other topics not covered elsewhere

    Posted

    3 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

    I interpreted you saying    ‘but they're not going to put 2 and 2 together if we cannot join the dots and explain to people with confidence that an independent Scotland can do things better as explaining to people how we make Scotland more successful than the Uk. People see this differently to each other hence me saying joining the dots would be difficult . The policies that you want will be different to that of Loon so they need to be careful or they will alienate a portion of the electorate. Pretty much what some are saying is happening just now with O&G for example.
    I do agree they need to be far more forthright in highlighting the corruption in Westminster versus the Scottish parliament. Even the bloody STV voting up here is far fairer but its amazing the people who have no idea what the difference is to FPTP.  If nothing comes of this missing £600k with regards to arrests they should be screaming from the rooftops about the double standards. 

    On the Euro, this is one area that I have particular interest as it is my line of work. To my knowledge joining the Euro is the least attractive to the SNP,  any statements made so far have suggested sticking with the pound for a period and/or having a Scottish currency seem to be preferable. Adopting the Euro is not a necessity of rejoining the EU despite what unionists try to spin. 
     

     

     

    Whether its policy I agree with or Loon agrees with is mostly irrelevant, what's most important is that the policy is credible and can be evidenced. The SNP have themselves tied in knots over their own policy positions and the process of having a referendum itself, all of their own doing. They don't know how to get out of the mess they've created, yet they'll still dangle the carrot of independence to their support (because what else are they supposed to do?)

    The whole party needs a complete reboot but what its members did instead was vote for a continuity, careerist candidate who just wants the privilege of being able to call himself first minister. Perhaps the whole house of cards will come crumbling down and we can start again, but I find it difficult to see how the party actually move forward. Nicola Sturgeon was the worst thing to ever happen to the independence movement.

    Indyref 2 (2)

    in Anything Goes - Other topics not covered elsewhere

    Posted

    18 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

    No it isn't because, on it's own, it doesn't actually mean anything. Do you mean join the EU, use the Euro as currency, or be part of the Eurozone. Those are three different things which folk often get mixed up.

    Take your pick, the point is that whatever the governments position is they need to demonstrate the feasibility of it with evidence. It's just an example.

    Indyref 2 (2)

    in Anything Goes - Other topics not covered elsewhere

    Posted · Edited by Freeedom

    21 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

    I dont disagree with this in principle but as much as the SNP are failing to make a case for independence and have made some poor decisions I do not think they are totally incompetent. That is hyperbole facilitated by unionist media . The SNP will never be able to please everyone , for example you and Loon both think they are incompetent but for totally different reasons. You both have a different views of how Scotland would exist as an independent nation . Joining the dots for you would take a different path to the dots joined for Loon. 

    Some of the things they are attempting like the DRS are fundamentally good ideas. Leading the way in things like this should be examples of how we could run an independent Scotland but folk are too happy to stick the boot in . You expect that from the opposition, they will try to ridicule anything the SG do as its effectively the SNP, but you expect a bit more support from your own side.

    All that said,  Humza is never in a million years going to bring us independence. Independence is a much bigger step than simply winning an election. To get people to buy into independence requires a figurehead that is reasonably likeable , shrewd and trustworthy. People buy from people. You do not need to have the perfect product but you do need to know how to sell it. Whilst I think he is a decent enough guy, Humza does not hold these qualities IMO. 

    Eh? I've never suggested the SNP need to please everyone, that's impossible. What I meant when I said that the SNP need to join the dots was to try and make the connection between

    A) The failures of government in westminster (whether that be Labour or Tory)
    B) How the Scottish government would have a different policy to solve problem X, Y or Z
    C) That this can only be achieved by having independence.
    D) Here's exactly how we can do it.

    As you said people already understand point A but they are not connecting the dots to B, C and D and that's what the SNP are responsible for and failing at. We cannot have a referendum until they start making that case and the light bulbs start going off in people's minds.

    EDIT:

    I would also add that the SNP are entitled to push whatever policy position they want, but it has to be credible. If they want to sell independence on the notion that Scotland is going to rejoin the EU then they better have some credibility behind that position. How exactly are they going to make that happen? Are we going to join the Euro? etc... If they dont have credible answers then nobody is going to buy what they are selling.

    Indyref 2 (2)

    in Anything Goes - Other topics not covered elsewhere

    Posted

    49 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

    I am in no way trivialising the situation and there is no one as dismayed as me at the situation. The SNP absolutely could be doing much more to promote independence but I dont think Scotland is ready at the moment and , IMO, an October referendum would , without doubt, have failed. 

    It doesn’t need the SNP to show the people of Scotland what an absolute shit show the UK is. We are not trying to educate 5 yr olds its grown adults. They see evidence every day and despite certain media doing everything they can to disguise the state of things , Brexit as one example, there are various  things that are clear and obvious like the political scandals, the economic condition compared to other countries, outrageous fuel costs in a nation that produces energy etc etc. Still, this doesn’t seem to be enough for folk to say enough is enough. I  really do not know what it would take to win some people round we are so meek and lacking in ambition as a country. 

     

    There's no doubt in my mind that if the SNP announced an October referendum today we would lose. I'm not suggesting for one minute that we should be having one because as is perpetually the case with this government, they're not putting the plans in place or campaigning accordingly.

    How can we convince people to vote yes when we have an incompetent government unwilling to even make the effort to campaign for the cause? 

    The general public can see all the corruption in the world from Westminster but they're not going to put 2 and 2 together if we cannot join the dots and explain to people with confidence that an independent Scotland can do things better.

    The onus is on the powers that be in Scotland to make the argument and we are failing miserably. 

     

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