mcnpauls
-
Posts
75 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Tartan Army Message Board News
Media Demo
Posts posted by mcnpauls
-
-
I remember all of them back to Willie Ormond, but it's definitely Craig Brown for me: he got us to two tournaments with a much weaker selection of players than any of his predecessors.
He would also have fostered team spirit, and, above all else, look to choose the best blend of players. If he had had the 74, 78 or 82 squads under his command at the time, we would have done better in each of those tournaments than we did with Ormond (my second choice) but Paw Broon would not have made the mistake of loyalty to Law in the first game and not playing Jimmy Johnstone in any); McLeod - he would have been prepared against the opposition, not been so loyalty to a bunch of past it former stars and recognised the defending would need to be taken more seriously and even Stein, whose blend of favouritism and media kowtowing diluted the effectiveness of a strong squad.
-
Nobody's mentioned Jim Duffy, an absolutely extraordinary sweeper in the 1980s.
-
2001 is a great film, though, isn't it? I saw it once in 70 mm in the cinema over 20 years ago and it was extraordinary as an audiovisual experience.
Most of the "explanations" of what is supposed to be going on in it come from Arthur C Clarke, who co-wrote it and wrote the parallel novel. I was a Clarke obsessive in the 80s - as a reader - but I've always been wary of his take on it. Ultimately, Kubrick was the film-maker and wanted people to have a much more mysterious reaction to it than the hyper-logical and analytical Clarke. Kubrick told Michael Herr that he came up with the idea of the Star Child at the end, but could not explain what it meant to him, other than being a truly astonishing, powerful image that moved him, for instance.
-
48 minutes ago, Orraloon said:
Ally MacLeod was in charge for 17 games. Tom Forsyth played in 14 of those games. He partnered McQueen in 6 of them. The only games Forsyth didn't play in were two friendlies against East Germany and Bulgaria, and Ally's final game in Austria which was after Forsyth had retired from international football. When it came to competitive games Forsyth was ahead of Martin Buchan for that central defence place,IMO. Buchan was a much more skillful player than Forsyth. He was one of those silky defenders who could play a bit. He was the versatile player who could play a lot of positions at the top level. Under MacLeod he tended to be the player who came in to replace others who weren't available.
Martin Buchan played 10 times under MacLeod. He played at left back and at right back when McGrain, Jardine or Donachie weren't available. When he played in central defence he was also often replacing someone else (usually McQueen). He only partnered McQueen twice under MacLeod. One of those games was one of those friendlies that Forsyth didn't play in, and the other was that game in Austria after Forsyth had retired. Most of the games that Buchan played in central defence he was actually partnering Forsyth.
It could be argued that Forsyth was actually MacLeod's stalwart in central defence, but we all know that McQueen was the main man, and was a real world class defender (possibly the best in the world?) when he was fit. McQueen also played 10 of Ally's internationals. He missed 4 games due to the injury that ruled him out of WC78. The other 3 games he missed was the 77 tour to South America which was when Buchan got 3 of his games in central defence. Alongside Forsyth.
Kenny Burns was also pushing for a place around this time but IMO he wasn't in the same league as the other three.
There is no doubt in my mind that if everybody in the squad was fit the starting defence would have been Jardine, McGrain, McQueen and Forsyth with Martin Buchan on the bench ready to replace any one of them if required.
But I guess we will never know for sure, it's all about opinions. Ally, himself probably didn't know who he would have picked if they had all been fit?
Your research is genuienly awesome! I'm going more by memories of the period and I'm now inclining towards your way of thinking here, but with a couple of caveats, though: I do think the squad jersey numbers 1-11 in McLeod's reign were a genuine reflection of the intended first team, all going well. If you look at them, every other person from 1-11 was undoubtedly McLeod's preferred option in each position, so why should Buchan get Forsyth's number?
Buchan had also been out injured for some months in the pre-World Cup period, ISTR, which must have influenced his caps in that time.
Finally, and by all accounts, Buchan was considered by many the most intelligent player in the squad and he tended to let managers know what he thought, which led to initial conflict with McLeod until they became friendlier.
What we are both in agreement about, though was that Ally's five key defenders were Jardine, McGrain, McQueen, Forsyth and Buchan. With McGrain and McQueen unavailable, he would definitely have wanted to field a back four of Jardine, Donnachie, Forsyth and Buchan, which would have been a very strong line up, too, but injury and suspension deprived him of both Jardine and Donnachie. As it was, only Forsyth actually played in the position intended for him against Peru: no manager would want to start a World Cup against strong opposition with his third choice right back, fourth choice central defender and no recognised leftback.
I rewatched the whole match about 8 years ago and saw that Tam Forsyth was the only one of the back four who played well. I feel sorry for McLeod for not having a stronger defence available, although the complete lack of a deputy leftback in the squad was his own fault.
McLeod's team selection against Peru made sense, even though all the hindsight brigade have falsely claimed since that game that it was "obvious" to everyone that Souness should play.
McLeod's fault against Peru was utter, shambolic disregard for the opposition and his dreadful mistakes in terms of selection actually came in the Iran game. (By pretty much every account, the senior players picked the team to play Holland.)
-
Did a quick search and I think McLeod's World Cup squad numbers prove Buchan was first team pick:
1 GK Alan Rough 2 DF Sandy Jardine 3 DF Willie Donachie 4 DF Martin Buchan 5 DF Gordon McQueen 6 MF Bruce Rioch (c) 7 MF Don Masson 8 FW Kenny Dalglish 9 FW Joe Jordan 10 MF Asa Hartford 11 MF Willie Johnston 12 GK Jim Blyth 13 DF Stuart Kennedy 14 DF Tom Forsyth 15 MF Archie Gemmill 16 FW Lou Macari 17 FW Derek Johnstone 18 MF Graeme Souness 19 FW John Robertson 20 GK Bobby Clark 21 FW Joe Harper -
1 hour ago, Orraloon said:
I'm not saying you are wrong here, but I'm going to need some more convincing of that. In the 12 games prior to Argentina, Forsyth played in 10 of them and Buchan played in only 5. Was he injured during that period? But more importantly, to me, Forsyth played alongside McQueen in the two crucial qualifiers. At Hampden against Czechoslovakia and at Anfield. At Anfield Buchan only came on as a sub because Jardine got injured. I don't remember McLeod having any particular favoritism for Buchan.
Good points, Orrapool, and I'd need to dig into this because I'm working from memory of those great days, but I do recall Buchan was injured for some months that season.
I rated Tom Forsyth, too, though, a player who now seems forgotten, but the thinking in those days was that you would have one centre back who attacked the ball in the air and was a hard tackler and another who swept up on the ground and was maybe better ant building up from the back. McQueen and Forsyth played the former role normally for their teams and Scotland whereas Buchan was the cool footballing brain. To be honest all three could tackle hard and were good to great in the air, and Forsyth and McQueen often charged forward.
Buchan was really fast, too, as well as experienced composed and skilled. If an actual left back had been available for the Peru game, I'm sure McLeod wanted to use Buchan at right back and Stuart Kennedy would not have been thrown in at the deep end, but there was no left back available.
It's forty years ago now, though, and I'm sure I might be merging and mixing memories a bit.
-
On 6/3/2018 at 6:11 PM, Orraloon said:
If we had had a full squad with no injuries, I am fairly confident that Tom Forsyth would have partnered McQueen in central defence. Buchan would have been more likely to get a game at full back as cover for Jardine who, I think, wasn't fully fit.
I'm not sure that Robertson even had a cap before going to Argentina? Willie Johnston was always going to start, barring drug convictions.
Souness only had a handful of caps at that time as well. You hear lots of folk saying that Rioch or Masson should have been dropped in favour of Souness but I don't think folk were saying that until after the event. The debate was usually about which three would play from the four of Rioch, Masson, Gemmill or Hartford. Souness was just starting his international career.
I think Malcolm's hypothetical first choice defence with everyone fit would have been right, Orraloon: Jardine, McGrain, McQueen and Buchan, rather than your suggested Jardine, McGrain, McQueen and Forsyth. Buchan was the captain of Manchester United and McQueen's central defensive partner there. Buchan, along with McGrain and Jardine, had all been star defenders for us in the undefeated 74 World Cup and McLeod really thought the World of Buchan. I'd also argue that Tam Forsyth was a bit too similar in style to McQueen for the thinking of the time for them to make an ideal partnership. Most of all, McLeod thought the world of Martin Buchan.
McLeod's single biggest footballing problem, long forgotten now except by Graham McColl in his excellent book, is that not only could he not field that first choice defence in the opening game because McGrain and McQueen were injured, but he could not field his second choice defence, which would still have been a top class unit used to playing with each other for Scotland and complementing each other well - Jardine, Donnachie, Forsyth and Buchan, - because Jardine was injured and Donnachie was suspended.
This was where Ally's poor planning now became apparent. He had taken Gordon McQueen to the World Cup despite the team's doctors and physios saying McQueen would never be fit, and not taken another left back. Frank Gray, Leeds United's excellent leftback, had been in the initial squad of 40 McLeod named but did not make the final 22. So Buchan was asked to play at left back, a position he had only played in once in his lfe, Stuart Kennedy, a good player, but lacking experience at such a high pressure level, was brought in at right back, and Kenny Burns was brought in to partner Tam Forsyth as centre backs. Again, Burns barely knew the rest of the team. I don't think any European team would have wanted to face the champions of South America in South America with such a makeshift defence.
I totally agree with you that the idea everyone thought McLeod should play Souness in the first game is a retrospective myth. Where McLeod really blew it was against Iran, when absolutely everybody at the time thought Souness should have come in as a straight playmaker replacement for Masson.
-
Excellent article can be found here:
http://inbedwithmaradona.com/retro/2014/9/17/a-lament-for-scotland-lost
-
I admire them as people and as being able to please their fans, but I have never heard a single song by them I liked, or even found memorable, and, yes, I have seen them live (more than once, always at festivals admittedly).
The brought 8 million pounds into ma hame toun, so I love them for that!
-
Very, very good documentary, do, first of all congratulations to TV John and his team for making it so well..
I enjoyed it, but was also saddened by it, for various reasons:
1) I lived through that amazing period when we we contenders going in to the World Cups of the 70s, and suspect I'll never see anything like it again. In fact, I fear I'll never see us in a World Cup again.
2) I felt sorry for the McLeod family: Ally was a bright and very lovable man, and you wish they'd not have to go through his only being remembered for this.
3) Despite 2) The feeling that Ally, the players and the SFA let us down.
If you enjoyed this programme, you absolutely must read Graham McColl's book "78: How a Nation Lost the World Cup," which is even better and more in depth than Mike Wilson's "Don't Cry for me Argentina" and you should also read Archie MacPherson's very recent book about Scotland in the World Cups, which is also revealing about Argentina. McColl is the most sympathetic to McLeod and MacPherson the most critical, with this documentary and Mike Wilson's book being most in the middle.
I have to say I was shocked in the documentary - brilliant bit of archive research! - when they showed McLeod happily admitting he would not watch our opposition in preparation.
I think Lou Macari, Bud Johnson and possibly Bruce Rioch were all a bit self-serving in the interviews. Macari was seen by other players as a bit of a snake in the grass who was bad for squad morale, and we know he was selling stories to the press, and did sod all when played against Iran. Bud's as thick as mince, but the hayfever defence of his Reactivan taking smells like bullshit. Rioch was one of the people on record when the draw was made at the time saying it was a dream draw and we'd definitely qualify, etc, so our captain was as complacent as our manager.
What only McColl's book makes clear is that the team went into the Peru game with a defence no-one actually wanted: not only was McGrain missing from the squad altogether, and McQueen there but never going to be fit to play (and the squad doctors and physios had told McLeod this before the squad was announced and told him not to take McQueen so that was a poor decision totally down to Ally him) but Sandy Jardine was injured for the first game and Willie Donnachie was suspended, with no other left back in the squad. Martin Buchan, experienced star of the 74 World Cup and our superb first choice sweeper, was due to mark Cubillas but was forced, instead, to play at leftback for only the second time in his career, Stuart Kennedy was thrown in at right back and Kenny Burns and Tam Forsyth - not a natural partnership due to certain similarities and barely ever having played together - became the central defenders. All of them had a torrid time against the Peru players no-one had researched.
No World Cup genuine contenders wanted to have such a makeshift defence, and it was beyond even Ally's control.
I really don't blame McLeod for playing Rioch and Masson in the first game. His massive, stupid midfield mistake was not playing Souness against Iran.
-
Great, great player: I believe Forest fans have chosen him as the club's greatest ever player all three times they've been polled on the matter.
-
John Collins was the best player in that side. The Levein of the mid 80s was on course to be one of our greatest defenders ever, but really bad injuries (in 86 and 87?) meant he was never the same again. Ferguson was not as good as legend would have it. Robertson was worthy of a good run in the Scotland team and with good service could have scored loads, but never got a sustained run. Boyd, of course, did have a long and pretty decent Scotland career, without being an all-time great.
The rest - good club men.
-
On 12/21/2016 at 0:05 PM, ErsatzThistle said:
A pointless, trivial, timewasting thread for Christmas.
Ever wondered when was the last time we put out a starting XI where all the players were signed to Scottish clubs ? Something we are, in all honesty, unlikely to see again.
Anyway, it would appear that this was it:
0-1 friendly defeat vs. Germany (managed by Vogts) at Ibrox on March 24th 1993.
Nicky Walker (Heart of Midlothian)
Stephen Wright (Aberdeen)
Tom Boyd (Celtic)
Craig Levein [c] (Heart of Midlothian)
Brian Irvine (Aberdeen)
Alan McLaren (Heart of Midlothian)
John Robertson (Heart of Midlothian)
Dave Bowman (Dundee United)
Duncan Ferguson (Dundee United)
John Collins (Celtic)
Jim McInally (Dundee United)Sub:
Scott Booth (Aberdeen) for Wright (64)With rose tinted glasses removed - was that a fairly decent team or otherwise ?
A fair reflection of Scottish football at the time or was the decline in quality already there to see ?
Which players from that side would you take for today's team ?
I was at the game and it was not so much an experimental line-up as cobbling together a working side from the people Roxburgh had available on the night.
I already thought at the time that our decline as a nation producing great players was becoming evident, though: the guys in this line-up were all good club players, but few of them would make you think they could sustain a successful international career against top class opposition.
-
On 12/16/2016 at 8:09 PM, fringo said:
Was he not voted as the greatest team's captain also ?
The show didn't ask fans to vote for a captain, but I'm sure it would have been Bremner if it had.
-
On 12/9/2016 at 10:51 AM, glasgow jock said:
Legend - would be in our all time best starting 11.
He was voted into the final 11 of the "Scotland's Greatest Team" tv series a few years back, which was probably the biggest ever survey of fans'm opinions.
-
If there was a golden age, which I doubt, then it might have been the 80s, when we had people like Sadowitz, Bing Hitler and Bruce Morton emerging.
-
"It is what it is!" Got a new boss, who is admittedly a decent guy, but he comes out with this shite every day as if it's great wisdom. I don't think I'd ever heard it used until about a year ago, and the same goes for "baby shower".
I detest people saying "But...hey ho."
"Shout out to" is another.
-
21 hours ago, COLT NY said:
Best Scotland defence ever... Don't think it will ever be beat.
Agreed: and I forgot to mention Leighton, who in the early-late 80s was magnificent behind Gough, McLeish, Miller and Malpas.
-
On 4/13/2016 at 0:04 PM, glasgow jock said:
He was a very good centre half - but an even better right back imo.
On 4/13/2016 at 1:31 PM, Toepoke said:Aye his best games for Scotland were at full back...
Totally agree: Gough at right back was superb for us, and with McLeish, Miller and Malpas alongside him, we had an awesome defence. Pity the rest of the areas of the team weren't as dependable in those days.
-
I only realised when I was in my 30s that he was Scottish. I loathed their programme throughout the 70s and 80s, yet really liked the two of them as performers and people ouwith the confines of their douible act. Having said that, the "Mastermind" skethc is excellent.
-
Going to be heretical and say I thought both Mel Gibson in "Braveheart" and Johnny Lee Miller" in "Trainspotting" were good at Scottish accents.
-
Great, great football man - defender of the genuine punters, an innovator, a good, honest and clear analysts, and he was a gentleman about his fling with Raquel Welch.
I'm really sorry about the chant that vilified him for years.
-
our form in the 80s was more caused by crap forwards , sharp & speedy being 2 of the most useless tossers ever playing for Scotland ; defence generally kept us in games , but our lack of creative midfield, and forwards who went thru the motions (especially away from home) cost usthe same team that beat Spain 3-1, barely crossed the half way line in Seville ; was only 1-0Ireland and Wales beat us 1-0, 1-1 away to Wales, 0-0 away to Ireland - i know these are in different tournamentsbut we were a very stuffy side at times\Miller as a defender , in the defensive sense was streets ahead of Hansen i feel, but not as classy looking, and possibly not as creative with the ballas for Narey ; check out his defending against cyprus in wc 90 qualifier away game-recall SAF chose him over McLeish in W Germany game in Mexico 86again we scored 1 goal the whole tournament (deflection...)defence performed admirably throughout 3 games in the group of death - but we offered very little at other end of field
Totally agree with everyone point you make, other than SAF preferring Narey to McLeish in 86 World Cup - McLeish got injured and Narey had to replace him, and did, as you say, a great job along with the rest of rhe defence.
-
"back in the day"
I despise that saying. The recent one that also makes me loathe the people who use it is indicating being reluctant about something by saying; "But, well, hey ho..."
How far would our 74 team get today?
in TA specific
Posted
I'd replace Holton with Miller, and Morgan for Strachan. I might put Souness in for Lorimer, but leave the rest.