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In a nutshell, the National is a bit like the Socialist Worker: it may not be a normal paper and you may not agree with it, but it reflects a sincerely held viewpoint of a proportion of the population, and democracy would be poorer without it.

Imagine if the BBC platformed The Socialist Worker as often as it platforms The Spectator?

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1 hour ago, exile said:

In a nutshell, the National is a bit like the Socialist Worker: it may not be a normal paper and you may not agree with it, but it reflects a sincerely held viewpoint of a proportion of the population, and democracy would be poorer without it.

Imagine if the BBC platformed The Socialist Worker as often as it platforms The Spectator?

You've made a good case for a paper with pro-independence slant.  Think everyone agrees with that.  It's the implementation people laugh at.  It now has it's commercial following, I'm sure the Watchtower does as well in a similar way.

The comparison is like flogging a dead horse but if you read the Sunday Times, for example, over the last months you would have read exclusives on British Army cover up of a death in Kenya, David Cameron's lobby scandal, Matt Hankcock's aide revelations (the real scandal, not the affair!), Haiti assassinations just to name a few off the top of my head. The Guardian will find real news; as will the Telegraph.   The National will have a dreary article about a Twitter hashtag or Riddoch regurgitating about Norway again. 

Do you need to read between lines sometimes?  Of course.  Is it a westernised media outlet?  Obviously.  Do they hate Indy? Yes.  It would be good to have a quality paper that attempted to be credible.  It caricatures the credible cause I support and next to noone takes it seriously.  Bring back the Sunday Herald.

Edited by PapofGlencoe
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8 hours ago, PapofGlencoe said:

You've made a good case for a paper with pro-independence slant.  Think everyone agrees with that.  It's the implementation people laugh at.  It now has it's commercial following, I'm sure the Watchtower does as well in a similar way.

The comparison is like flogging a dead horse but if you read the Sunday Times, for example, over the last months you would have read exclusives on British Army cover up of a death in Kenya, David Cameron's lobby scandal, Matt Hankcock's aide revelations (the real scandal, not the affair!), Haiti assassinations just to name a few off the top of my head. The Guardian will find real news; as will the Telegraph.   The National will have a dreary article about a Twitter hashtag or Riddoch regurgitating about Norway again. 

Do you need to read between lines sometimes?  Of course.  Is it a westernised media outlet?  Obviously.  Do they hate Indy? Yes.  It would be good to have a quality paper that attempted to be credible.  It caricatures the credible cause I support and next to noone takes it seriously.  Bring back the Sunday Herald.

Sure, I'm not denying that those papers are more credible and better crafted as newspapers. And I can accept the latent maybe inadvertent connection between the ownership of the paper and the 'caricature' charge. It may be what they think indy people want (rather than what they need) and invited politicians/columnists are happy to oblige. And yes a more credible paper would be better. Etc.

But I just think it's not as simple as saying it's just laughable - hence the comparison with Socialist Worker or Morning Star which represent serious causes - rather than the Star - which is surely not taken seriously even by itself.

True, the National may not convince a unionist or neutral, but as I say, even just putting the case for the other side of the story serves a purpose, when every other paper and media outlet is relentless SNPbad, ScotlandBad, indybad.

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8 hours ago, PapofGlencoe said:

  The National will have a dreary article about a Twitter hashtag or Riddoch regurgitating about Norway again.

p.s. I take your point on dreary and regurgiating. But my earlier point was exactly that so-called serious papers like Sunday Times Scotland also indulge in dredging up hashtag banter and columnists regurgitating their same turgid arguments over and over again, except pro-union. That is their right but what I mean is, the sophistication of that kind of political content is really no better than The National.

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6 minutes ago, exile said:

p.s. I take your point on dreary and regurgiating. But my earlier point was exactly that so-called serious papers like Sunday Times Scotland also indulge in dredging up hashtag banter and columnists regurgitating their same turgid arguments over and over again, except pro-union. That is their right but what I mean is, the sophistication of that kind of political content is really no better than The National.

Comparing the output and content of the Sunday Times and the National is unfair.

The Sunday Times - clue is in the name - is a paper which is published once a week, while it has the same publisher as the Times, it has a totally different editorial team and staff.   The National on the other hand is a seven day a week operation.

The reason why Sunday papers are capable of doing more in depth pieces is precisely because they only come out once a week.

In terms of its resources and reach, comparing the Sunday Times to the National is also like comparing the output of BBC1, BBC2, BBC4 and BBC News to the BBC Scotland channel.

From primarily a Scottish context, the Sunday Herald as it originally was, stood comparison with any UK Sunday paper IMHO.

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51 minutes ago, exile said:

p.s. I take your point on dreary and regurgiating. But my earlier point was exactly that so-called serious papers like Sunday Times Scotland also indulge in dredging up hashtag banter and columnists regurgitating their same turgid arguments over and over again, except pro-union. That is their right but what I mean is, the sophistication of that kind of political content is really no better than The National.

They may do on Twitter but not so much in print where more perspective is employed, in my opinion.  Twitter has shown up journalists to be the fallible arseholes most knew they were. And not as bright as they think of themselves.  I agree with that.

Case in point about credibility.  Look at today's Times.  Real news about the Albanian camp and not pro-Government particularly.  Look at the National. Scarcely a news piece and opinion about guess what?  Independence.  It's like the boy that cried wolf.  The other papers might be against independence but they hold the correct view that there's more to life.  Everything the National promotes on its front page is in relation to it.  It detracts gravitas to itself by acting that way.

I know I'm sounding like a misery guts; I'm not all that and fairly hopeful in the long run things will turn round but the National is a joke.  I can't get past the first page.  I don't think a large proportion of yes supporters identify with it at all.

 

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1 hour ago, aaid said:

Comparing the output and content of the Sunday Times and the National is unfair.

The Sunday Times - clue is in the name - is a paper which is published once a week, while it has the same publisher as the Times, it has a totally different editorial team and staff.   The National on the other hand is a seven day a week operation.

The reason why Sunday papers are capable of doing more in depth pieces is precisely because they only come out once a week.

In terms of its resources and reach, comparing the Sunday Times to the National is also like comparing the output of BBC1, BBC2, BBC4 and BBC News to the BBC Scotland channel.

From primarily a Scottish context, the Sunday Herald as it originally was, stood comparison with any UK Sunday paper IMHO.

The Sunday times only comes out on a Sunday?  Glad we cleared that up.  For what it's worth, The Sunday National is equally as pish as the daily.  Check the state of last weeks.  Better make sure we get Nicola on the front page and something about Indy.  I like Nicola but for goodness sake.

The Times, the Telegraph, the Guardian, christ even the Daily Record find news.  The National doesn't.  I agree there is no comparison unfair or otherwise.  

Comparing the National to BBC Scotland is a huge slight on the channel.  Not even in the same league thankfully.

Edited by PapofGlencoe
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The reaction to sturgeons “stop cambo” grand standing has had a massive wave of negative response, possibly worse than to stop brexit mess she preached,, what a fucking idiot of a woman, imagine the indy ref campaign m,,, “come on guys vote for indy so we can put you out a job” all 100k of you,, sabotage!!! 

Edited by hampden_loon2878
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1 hour ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

The reaction to sturgeons “stop cambo” grand standing has had a massive wave of negative response, possibly worse than to stop brexit mess she preached,, what a fucking idiot of a woman, imagine the indy ref campaign m,,, “come on guys vote for indy so we can put you out a job” all 100k of you,, sabotage!!! 

A couple of questions, just out of interest: 

- When do you think we (Scotland/UK) should stop drilling/extracting oil? 
- Do you think there are opportunities for job transition in NE to other industries (like carbon capture) ?

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40 minutes ago, AlfieMoon said:

A couple of questions, just out of interest: 

- When do you think we (Scotland/UK) should stop drilling/extracting oil? 
- Do you think there are opportunities for job transition in NE to other industries (like carbon capture) ?

We should stop drilling when we stop importing oil and gas, even after that we will still require oil and gas for products, so it will always be there, i do realise that oil and gas is in its twilight world wide and will steadily decline, i get that, the industry gets that. What she has done is gone out, said we shouldn’t drill for new oil while we are still not energy sufficient , so sturgeon what do we do, let folk freeze to death in the winter? Have more imported from abroad? Aye great idea. What about the highly skilled, highly paid jobs of the industry? People will just move abroad and the local economy will implode,, its ok her kissing the ass of the greens while grand standing in her self righteousness, her and dodgy pete are multimillionaires, so why would she give a shit about the northeast and worried workers..

 

carbon capture would go hand and hand with the O&G ,, it would make oil production  pretty much carbon neutral if  worked correctly, there will never be enough renewable jobs to fill the gap left by oil and gas, the greens want to further fuck the fishing industry as well,, great,,, what anti business anti jobs lunatics we have running things,, oh and they hate the cattle farmers as well,, so the three biggest employers in the north east, O&G, fishin and agriculture.. its bloody sabotage no question about it 

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On 11/17/2021 at 11:15 AM, Alibi said:

Sadly the National is a very poor excuse for a proper newspaper.  It's not a newspaper which happens to have an editorial policy of supporting indy (such a thing would be a welcome addition to the dead tree media); it's more like the Scots Independent with a bit of other news thrown in.  I don't trust it because its owners are I think of the unionist persuasion and they just see the National as a way of making money from folk who would never buy their other titles.

I do hope that things ramp up on the indyref2 front, but I would not be surprised to see NS find some other excuse to delay things - I can't decide if she is owned by the British state or just scared of doing anything meaningful or at all risky.  Her virtue signalling on Cambo is predictable - she is working on the basis that the UK government will give it the go ahead and then she can make herself look like an eco warrior to gain brownie points.  Clearly preventing it makes little practical difference when any output not coming from Cambo will be filled by Russia or Saudi Arabia in practice.  It might actually suit unionists for the UK to can Cambo as they would no doubt weaponise that to rubbish Scotland's financial prospects further.  I don't think NS is a very deep thinker as she seems to flounder and be indecisive a lot of the time.  As a member of the SNP since 1968 until recently, my view now is that she has been a major disappointment - 5 years after the Brexit vote and she's done absolutely nothing to progress indy.  I don't think Alex Salmond is the solution either, much as I liked him - he's been damaged irrevocably by the media attacks and smearing, with NS herself being one of the main cheerleaders in that respect.  If NS delivers indy, all will be forgiven but reluctantly I have to conclude that something smells fishy at the top of the SNP.

You have pretty much nailed my thoughts too

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On 11/17/2021 at 10:47 PM, Grim Jim said:

For The National haters on here.   Which papers do do read and trust?

Does anyone actually trust any newspaper?

All of them bar none have an axe to grind, you're not getting news, you're getting opinion.

 

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35 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

We should stop drilling when we stop importing oil and gas, even after that we will still require oil and gas for products, so it will always be there, i do realise that oil and gas is in its twilight world wide and will steadily decline, i get that, the industry gets that. What she has done is gone out, said we shouldn’t drill for new oil while we are still not energy sufficient , so sturgeon what do we do, let folk freeze to death in the winter? Have more imported from abroad? Aye great idea. What about the highly skilled, highly paid jobs of the industry? People will just move abroad and the local economy will implode,, its ok her kissing the ass of the greens while grand standing in her self righteousness, her and dodgy pete are multimillionaires, so why would she give a shit about the northeast and worried workers..

 

carbon capture would go hand and hand with the O&G ,, it would make oil production  pretty much carbon neutral if  worked correctly, there will never be enough renewable jobs to fill the gap left by oil and gas, the greens want to further fuck the fishing industry as well,, great,,, what anti business anti jobs lunatics we have running things,, oh and they hate the cattle farmers as well,, so the three biggest employers in the north east, O&G, fishin and agriculture.. its bloody sabotage no question about it 

I assume that we (UK) don’t export any oil & gas ? 

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50 minutes ago, AlfieMoon said:

I assume that we (UK) don’t export any oil & gas ? 

$22billion crude petroleum in 2019 says here.   Though strangely imported $23.3billion of the same stuff plus $20.9billion refined.

Their 2021 figures for crude are $958million exported and $1.3billion imported if I'm reading correctly at this time of night.

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Sturgeon has completely misread the mood again, i suppose when you surround yourself with hippies and “bad yins” it will be impossible to read the mood of things. Take peterhead for example, a population of 19 k. Around 800 are employed in score europe(o&g) 300-400 are employed at asco(o&g) 100 in equatic (o&g) then you have the power station along with many smaller employers.So what exactly is her vision for this medium sized town? If shes going to come out with this nonsense she needs to lay out her vision,, or is she going to just let is go like the mining towns under thatcher. BTW the thatcher comparison is starting to stick. 
 

 

aaid and thise blinded sturginites will not agree but for the sake of independence,  alba need to pick up a bit of traction in the councils next year, the independence movement needs them to do well, some of their members need reigned in though. I used to laugh when folk said sturgeon didnt like the north east, well with her statement regarding cambo has thrown us and the northeast mps msps under the bus..a few of them are out of a seat

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9 hours ago, AlfieMoon said:

I assume that we (UK) don’t export any oil & gas ? 

Why would you assume that?

The UK has been a net importer of oil and gas for about 15 years now but that doesn't mean we don't export the stuff. We just import a wee bit more than we export. 

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30 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Sturgeon has completely misread the mood again, i suppose when you surround yourself with hippies and “bad yins” it will be impossible to read the mood of things. Take peterhead for example, a population of 19 k. Around 800 are employed in score europe(o&g) 300-400 are employed at asco(o&g) 100 in equatic (o&g) then you have the power station along with many smaller employers.So what exactly is her vision for this medium sized town? If shes going to come out with this nonsense she needs to lay out her vision,, or is she going to just let is go like the mining towns under thatcher. BTW the thatcher comparison is starting to stick. 
 

 

aaid and thise blinded sturginites will not agree but for the sake of independence,  alba need to pick up a bit of traction in the councils next year, the independence movement needs them to do well, some of their members need reigned in though. I used to laugh when folk said sturgeon didnt like the north east, well with her statement regarding cambo has thrown us and the northeast mps msps under the bus..a few of them are out of a seat

You’re the one misreading the mood in the rest of the world outwith your wee parochial NE bubble. 
 

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6 minutes ago, aaid said:

You’re the one misreading the mood in the rest of the world outwith your wee parochial NE bubble. 
 

She doesn’t get elected bybthe rest of the world though, does she? Tell me the logic in importing more gas at the cost of domestic supplies and jobs

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3 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

She doesn’t get elected bybthe rest of the world though, does she? Tell me the logic in importing more gas at the cost of domestic supplies and jobs

No, but she gets elected by the rest of Scotland, something you seem to miss.

So when exactly is Cambo supposed to start producing oil?

Bearing in mind that we should be reducing fossil fuel consumption - and that needs to accelerate - will that reduced demand be catered for with existing production?

iE, do we actually need Cambo to provide for domestic requirements over the short, medium and long term?

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5 minutes ago, aaid said:

No, but she gets elected by the rest of Scotland, something you seem to miss.

So when exactly is Cambo supposed to start producing oil?

Bearing in mind that we should be reducing fossil fuel consumption - and that needs to accelerate - will that reduced demand be catered for with existing production?

iE, do we actually need Cambo to provide for domestic requirements over the short, medium and long term?

Something you seem to forget is that we need all of Scotland on board for independence, some of us actually want our country independent, instead of fixating on nicola and her band of woko harman maybe take a step back and look at the bigger picture,, the oil industry employs right across Scotland, the likes of the islands are heavily dependent on oil work. Myself and most of the industry realise its ramping down, however its lunacy for her to come away with this shite,, bonkers and un called for,, its simply playing to a specific small faction of the electorate..

 

Would you have our gas needs in the hands of Russia or Norway? Or would you turn off the taps? Cambo would in my gues come into production in say 5-8 years from now if they went after it tomorrow. We will need that field as the buzzard field depletes..

 

sturgeon as leader of the snp should be putting gaining independence first,, not to appease a few hippies protesting on a street corner  

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On 11/17/2021 at 9:01 AM, aaid said:

Given that she’s been pretty open about her mental health challenges, I think it’s probably likely that’s she’s been having more than one chat with professionals.

I was meaning someone from the party or someone close to her.  Some of the stuff she's come away with lately, like the comment referencing Owen Patterson's wife's suicide, are spectacularly ill-judged, especially for a politician.

I wouldn't wish what she's going through on anyone but by making some of the intemperate public statements she has recently she's not only hurting her party and potentially her career, she's also bringing more personal pressure on herself unnecessarily.  The SNP leadership has a duty of care.

1 hour ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Sturgeon has completely misread the mood again, i suppose when you surround yourself with hippies and “bad yins” it will be impossible to read the mood of things. Take peterhead for example, a population of 19 k. Around 800 are employed in score europe(o&g) 300-400 are employed at asco(o&g) 100 in equatic (o&g) then you have the power station along with many smaller employers.So what exactly is her vision for this medium sized town? If shes going to come out with this nonsense she needs to lay out her vision,, or is she going to just let is go like the mining towns under thatcher. BTW the thatcher comparison is starting to stick. 
 

I must admit, I am quite cynical about this change in approach too.  I can see Scotland's oil and gas industry being scrapped, all in the name of a worthy cause but at great cost to the communities it supports - like we saw with coal and steel a few decades ago - but the Russians and the Saudis continuing to produce the stuff, making a fortune in the process, and the climate change targets being missed.

Proper planning has to take place from both the UK and Scottish governments to enable the change to be as smooth as possible.  I don't just mean the jobs issue - which is huge - but making sure the infrastructure is there to support the desired change over to EVs.

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48 minutes ago, scotlad said:

I was meaning someone from the party or someone close to her.  Some of the stuff she's come away with lately, like the comment referencing Owen Patterson's wife's suicide, are spectacularly ill-judged, especially for a politician.

I wouldn't wish what she's going through on anyone but by making some of the intemperate public statements she has recently she's not only hurting her party and potentially her career, she's also bringing more personal pressure on herself unnecessarily.  The SNP leadership has a duty of care.

I must admit, I am quite cynical about this change in approach too.  I can see Scotland's oil and gas industry being scrapped, all in the name of a worthy cause but at great cost to the communities it supports - like we saw with coal and steel a few decades ago - but the Russians and the Saudis continuing to produce the stuff, making a fortune in the process, and the climate change targets being missed.

Proper planning has to take place from both the UK and Scottish governments to enable the change to be as smooth as possible.  I don't just mean the jobs issue - which is huge - but making sure the infrastructure is there to support the desired change over to EVs.

Its so amateurish i just don't believe that its incompetence,, why did she need to go and come out with “she wouldn't allow it if she had the power” why not just stick to the “licensing for oil and gas needs reassessed”. Its just bizarre especially when holyrood doesn’t have that power which for once i am glad about. 
 

The question needs asked to why the snp were so hostile towards alba in the scottish holyrood election,, the place could really be done with someone with the stature and political savvy as salmond.. 

 

its all about the murrells make no mistake of this

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