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You think you're becoming more pragmatic, can see both sides, with age and then an individual turns your country into a colony.  And I use that word advisedly. Don't even need to defend their pos

I wont find it funny in any way, never mind hilarious. There is no way Scotland will win independance without the SNP in power. Unless you mean post independence,  but I doubt you mean that as that wo

The saddest thing on the TAMB is watching you scoot aroond the board needling bits and pieces of absolute shite in everywhere with absolutely fuck all evidence to back up anything. You are the King of

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8 hours ago, Squirrelhumper said:

The Unionist meltdown when Independence happens will he superb. 

Gives me a wee chuckle every time I think of it. Having been in a pub near George Sq the night of the referendum result I can still picture the cunts faces outside in the street. 

One day, one day soon....

I think some of them might turn violent, the police will need to be prepared

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On 9/13/2020 at 10:42 AM, King Of Paisley said:

Was in my local on Monday for the Czech game and prior to kick off  some of the chat was bitter and beyond belief.

Sturgeon is a Nazi rug muncher

We wouldn't survive without Government money

We would be begging in the streets if we voted Yes

The 15m 'deficit'

I could have ripped them a new arsehole on the deficit etc but I bit my lip and let them get on with it. The thing I have learned is not to bother engaging with people like that. Their Union, Queen and Country at all costs attitude is too deep rooted. Absolutely pointless in trying to educate these type of folk

Why were folk like that in the pub for the game?  Surely their team, England, wasn't playing on Monday?

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7 hours ago, Alibi said:

Why were folk like that in the pub for the game?  Surely their team, England, wasn't playing on Monday?

Just union rag loving bigots probably there to watch the six counties game.

"Oor wee loyal, Protestant brothers across the water in Ulster" and all that shite.

They certain ain't my feckin brothers across the water.  :crazy:

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8 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I can only think that Westminster wanting to flout international laws by ripping up a treaty they read, understood and signed will add more percentage to the Yes vote at the next polls. Touching on that much talked about 60% barrier anyone?

My concern is we're reliant on the government about to flout international law to abide by the Queensberry Rules whereas they're more likely to kick us in the bollocks and reduce the powers of SG to more of a circus than it already is.  

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2 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

My concern is we're reliant on the government about to flout international law to abide by the Queensberry Rules whereas they're more likely to kick us in the bollocks and reduce the powers of SG to more of a circus than it already is.  

Well if they do that it would be tantamount to committing hari-kari for their precious union. It would fuel the opinion polls and support for SNP in elections even more. Sure they could continue to say No but it would become an untenable position.

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4 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Well if they do that it would be tantamount to committing hari-kari for their precious union. It would fuel the opinion polls and support for SNP in elections even more. Sure they could continue to say No but it would become an untenable position.

I don't understand how it becomes untenable - it won't affect them in terms of a majority at WM and can't really see an outside country pushing them to letting us have one whereas an element of their base will love the rhetoric so why does a greater chance in them losing mean a greater chance in them granting the powers?  Not having a go - just genuinely interested.  

 

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4 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

I don't understand how it becomes untenable - it won't affect them in terms of a majority at WM and can't really see an outside country pushing them to letting us have one whereas an element of their base will love the rhetoric so why does a greater chance in them losing mean a greater chance in them granting the powers?  Not having a go - just genuinely interested.  

 

Okay untenable may be the wrong term but there is only so many times they can roll out phrases like 'Now is not the time' and there is no appetite for an IndyRef2. Especially, with SNP gaining multiple mandates on indyref with every election they win with probably a growing majority. The more they say No the more support jumps aboard the Yes bandwagon. Granted that means nothing if IndyRef2 cannot be secured but it is now up to the SNP to push through bills in Holyrood now with regards protecting Scotland's sovereignty and trying to create a trigger moment where an IndyRef is automatic at some point.

Westminster may hold the high ground but they are losing support for the union immeasurably with their actions and it may soon get to the stage where the position is irretrievable for them.

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1 hour ago, ThistleWhistle said:

I don't understand how it becomes untenable - it won't affect them in terms of a majority at WM and can't really see an outside country pushing them to letting us have one whereas an element of their base will love the rhetoric so why does a greater chance in them losing mean a greater chance in them granting the powers?  Not having a go - just genuinely interested.  

 

I'll have a go at trying to explain it - there are a few strands to this.

First of all, one of the golden rules of politics is when a particular outcome becomes inevitable you should accept that and act immediately.   In doing so, you limit the fallout, contain whatever "contagion" there is and remain in some level of control.   Now to be fair, this government - the UK one - doesn't quite seem to have the hang of that but they seem to be getting better as their U-turns do seem to be a bit swifter than they used to be.

In terms of a second referendum, at the point where that becomes inevitable - which based on the current direction of travel, would be after an SNP government is returned in the Holyrood election on a clear and unequivocal mandate to hold one.   At that point, the UKG would be best advised to start to talk to the SG about the terms of that referendum, in that way they would have some level of control and influence over those.   Don't get me wrong, I don't expect that to all be sweetness and light and done and dusted over a weekend but I'd be amazed if that didn't happen.

To be clear, while arguing for the Union in a referendum campaign is a perfectly reasonable position to take, blocking that vote, in the light of a clearly expressed view of the majority of the electorate is not.  It is also a position that no matter the spin you try and put on it is indefensible - there is no argument you can legitimately make that will support it and which reasonable minded people will accept.

In Scotland, the likely outcome of this course of action would be threefold, firstly, it would harden even further the views of the majority - at this point - who would vote Yes, it is likely to move even more Soft-no voters or undecideds to Yes and it also will piss off a lot of the more reasonable unionists.  In short, it plays right into the hands of the Yes side and makes that inevitable referendum - because it is still inevitable - a lot more difficult - possibly impossible for the Unionists to win.

So what, though, the Tories don't care about Scotland and even if no-one ever voted for them in Scotland again, it wouldn't affect their majority.

Of course, this doesn't just impact Scotland.  Taking that approach would also stir things up in Northern Ireland and Wales, but of course their real concern is in Wales.

Now while, I've no doubt that no PM, least of all the leader of the Conservative and Unionist party like to be that which was responsible for the break up of the Union, would the wider Tory party be prepared to lose out to a resurgent Labour Party and let them into power - for what could be a considerable period of time?

I've no polling data to back this up - I don't think there's ever really been anything done, I bet there will be though - but purely anecdotally, my view is that English public opinion isn't as clear cut as a lot of people in Scotland think.

There are a spectrum of views, some people couldn't really care one way or another, some would express "Can I move to Scotland", others would be slightly disappointed and sad but have a "well if that's what they want to do", others are "get rid of the whinging jocks" and finally there are those who think that the Union should be retained at all costs.

I wouldn't want to put any sort of numbers on how that broke down, if I had to guess, I'd say most people don't really care if it doesn't affect them directly.

So then you start to look at what impact blocking a referendum would have in England - and in particular to public opinion of the government.

You also need to remember that in England, pretty much everything is seen through the prism of Brexit, the majority of people wanted Brexit to happen and I don't really get the sense that there is a massive case of buyers regret there.  That may change once the full ramifications are apparent but right now, the Tories still have most of the Brexit vote wrapped up.   My personal view is that I can see that start to unwind over the next couple of years, possibly sooner, as things start to get a bit sticky and the impact - economically - of COVID starts to be felt.    I wouldn't put any money on Boris Johnson being PM going into the next general election, I think he'll be ousted before then.

The other thing is that taking a position of blocking a referendum is a very un-English thing to do.    It goes against the whole spirit of fair-play, to coin a phrase, it just isn't cricket.

Clearly, if come May, the SNP are returned again, Nicola, say "give us a Section 30, Boris" and he goes "not on your nelly", that's not going to be the end of it.   Things are going to ramp up considerably and the UKG will be under constant pressure to defend their position - which is indefensible.  It's also likely they'll be under pressure from other quarters, Brexit, Covid plus whatever other incompetence or scandal they've gotten involved in.

This all adds into the mix of pressure and opposition and which is very difficult for any democratic country to withstand.   Even totalitarian dictatorships crumble when the populace cease to become afraid of them.

So you basically get to a position where something has to give, it really is the case of the infinite force meeting the immoveable object, except, I don't think the object is at all secure.

I don't think that will get to that stage.  I think, post May, there will be a realisation from the UKG, that they cannot block this indefinitely and it is a fight that is not worth having, that they cannot win and will only result in further damaging their position.   That's without even considering whether or not the SG could seek to hold an advisory referendum without WM permission and what the Supreme Court view would be on that.

Do I think that they'll make it easy for the SG, absolutely not but I'd fully expect that ultimately they will grant the transfer of power under a section 30.

It's interesting to read between the lines of what certain Unionist commentators are saying, when they start to discuss things like the question, the franchise and the likely timetable, you can tell they've conceded that there will be one.
 

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30 minutes ago, aaid said:

The other thing is that taking a position of blocking a referendum is a very un-English thing to do.    It goes against the whole spirit of fair-play, to coin a phrase, it just isn't cricket.

While I understand your point, and they believe it to be true, frankly its nonsense.

Fair play to them is fair play for them, not other people. They are second only to Yanks in lacking self awareness and having a different opinion of themselves as opposed to the rest of the world. 

In the last year, Ive heard negative comments about their self interest, arrogance and stupidity from people from Belgium, Austria, Russia, Cambodia and Taiwan, none of which I instigated nor encouraged. The image of gentlemanly conduct may be perceived as an English trait, but only by people in England.

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12 minutes ago, kumnio said:

In the last year, Ive heard negative comments about their self interest, arrogance and stupidity from people from Belgium, Austria, Russia, Cambodia and Taiwan, none of which I instigated nor encouraged. The image of gentlemanly conduct may be perceived as an English trait, but only by people in England.

I have a friend in Serbia and I was asking about the Serbian view of the UK and of the 4 individual nations, which make up the UK.

I was told we are viewed by Serbs as being a brave; warrior-like people.

Of the English, they said "We see the English as being very polite, but not to be trusted"

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1 hour ago, Rich NATA said:

I have a friend in Serbia and I was asking about the Serbian view of the UK and of the 4 individual nations, which make up the UK.

I was told we are viewed by Serbs as being a brave; warrior-like people.

Of the English, they said "We see the English as being very polite, but not to be trusted"

If only we could see ourselves as others see us.  The irony that a Serb  should call Scots ‘brave warrior like people’ after what all the Balkan nations went through for what they believed in, when we totally shat our pants . 

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19 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

If only we could see ourselves as others see us.  The irony that a Serb  should call Scots ‘brave warrior like people’ after what all the Balkan nations went through for what they believed in, when we totally shat our pants . 

I think we probably do see ourselves as a brave, warrior-like people when it suits us. My Faither certainly does and yet he would have been a no-voter......... Thankfully, he didn't have a vote 🙂

 

You mention the Balkans. When Slovenia announced they were going to hold a referendum, Belgrade threatened to send in the tanks and fighter planes.

The Slovenes told Belgrade to GTF. They held their referendum and I think it was 83 or 87 percent voted for independence......... Then Slovenia declared UDI and f*cked off away from the grip of Belgrade.

 

Despite Belgrade's threat of tanks and fighter planes being sent in, little Slovenia decided to go it alone.

 

... and they don't even have any oil!

 

 

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3 hours ago, Rich NATA said:

I have a friend in Serbia and I was asking about the Serbian view of the UK and of the 4 individual nations, which make up the UK.

I was told we are viewed by Serbs as being a brave; warrior-like people.

Of the English, they said "We see the English as being very polite, but not to be trusted"

I’m guessing that he has watched Braveheart a few times?
 

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33 minutes ago, Rich NATA said:

I think we probably do see ourselves as a brave, warrior-like people when it suits us. My Faither certainly does and yet he would have been a no-voter......... Thankfully, he didn't have a vote 🙂

I'd rather we dropped all that kind of thing. Scottish "martial exploits" of the last couple of centuries are nothing for us to be proud about.

We should not be venerating Scottish soldiers and sailors role in building and defending the British Empire. Keeping other people down. Denying them their freedom. Killing, torturing, raping, imprisoning and starving them. That was what these Scottish "warriors" did. 

Leave the regimental glengarries and tam o'shanters in the museums where they belong. 

Incidentally I was reading an account of the fall of Singapore in 1942 from the Australian POV. They were scathing of these so called famous and "hard fighting" highland regiments. Apparently they were the very first to surrender. 

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4 hours ago, kumnio said:

While I understand your point, and they believe it to be true, frankly its nonsense.

Fair play to them is fair play for them, not other people. They are second only to Yanks in lacking self awareness and having a different opinion of themselves as opposed to the rest of the world. 

In the last year, Ive heard negative comments about their self interest, arrogance and stupidity from people from Belgium, Austria, Russia, Cambodia and Taiwan, none of which I instigated nor encouraged. The image of gentlemanly conduct may be perceived as an English trait, but only by people in England.

Its a difficult one but I'd say there are very many fair-minded, decent people in England but the problem is it is only ever the loud-mouthed bigots or gobshites of theirs that seem to get heard. It damages them. I suppose it is a bit like the England football fan abroad where the odd morons do all the damage.

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23 hours ago, aaid said:

I'll have a go at trying to explain it - there are a few strands to this.

First of all, one of the golden rules of politics is when a particular outcome becomes inevitable you should accept that and act immediately.   In doing so, you limit the fallout, contain whatever "contagion" there is and remain in some level of control.   Now to be fair, this government - the UK one - doesn't quite seem to have the hang of that but they seem to be getting better as their U-turns do seem to be a bit swifter than they used to be.

In terms of a second referendum, at the point where that becomes inevitable - which based on the current direction of travel, would be after an SNP government is returned in the Holyrood election on a clear and unequivocal mandate to hold one.   At that point, the UKG would be best advised to start to talk to the SG about the terms of that referendum, in that way they would have some level of control and influence over those.   Don't get me wrong, I don't expect that to all be sweetness and light and done and dusted over a weekend but I'd be amazed if that didn't happen.

To be clear, while arguing for the Union in a referendum campaign is a perfectly reasonable position to take, blocking that vote, in the light of a clearly expressed view of the majority of the electorate is not.  It is also a position that no matter the spin you try and put on it is indefensible - there is no argument you can legitimately make that will support it and which reasonable minded people will accept.

In Scotland, the likely outcome of this course of action would be threefold, firstly, it would harden even further the views of the majority - at this point - who would vote Yes, it is likely to move even more Soft-no voters or undecideds to Yes and it also will piss off a lot of the more reasonable unionists.  In short, it plays right into the hands of the Yes side and makes that inevitable referendum - because it is still inevitable - a lot more difficult - possibly impossible for the Unionists to win.

So what, though, the Tories don't care about Scotland and even if no-one ever voted for them in Scotland again, it wouldn't affect their majority.

Of course, this doesn't just impact Scotland.  Taking that approach would also stir things up in Northern Ireland and Wales, but of course their real concern is in Wales.

Now while, I've no doubt that no PM, least of all the leader of the Conservative and Unionist party like to be that which was responsible for the break up of the Union, would the wider Tory party be prepared to lose out to a resurgent Labour Party and let them into power - for what could be a considerable period of time?

I've no polling data to back this up - I don't think there's ever really been anything done, I bet there will be though - but purely anecdotally, my view is that English public opinion isn't as clear cut as a lot of people in Scotland think.

There are a spectrum of views, some people couldn't really care one way or another, some would express "Can I move to Scotland", others would be slightly disappointed and sad but have a "well if that's what they want to do", others are "get rid of the whinging jocks" and finally there are those who think that the Union should be retained at all costs.

I wouldn't want to put any sort of numbers on how that broke down, if I had to guess, I'd say most people don't really care if it doesn't affect them directly.

So then you start to look at what impact blocking a referendum would have in England - and in particular to public opinion of the government.

You also need to remember that in England, pretty much everything is seen through the prism of Brexit, the majority of people wanted Brexit to happen and I don't really get the sense that there is a massive case of buyers regret there.  That may change once the full ramifications are apparent but right now, the Tories still have most of the Brexit vote wrapped up.   My personal view is that I can see that start to unwind over the next couple of years, possibly sooner, as things start to get a bit sticky and the impact - economically - of COVID starts to be felt.    I wouldn't put any money on Boris Johnson being PM going into the next general election, I think he'll be ousted before then.

The other thing is that taking a position of blocking a referendum is a very un-English thing to do.    It goes against the whole spirit of fair-play, to coin a phrase, it just isn't cricket.

Clearly, if come May, the SNP are returned again, Nicola, say "give us a Section 30, Boris" and he goes "not on your nelly", that's not going to be the end of it.   Things are going to ramp up considerably and the UKG will be under constant pressure to defend their position - which is indefensible.  It's also likely they'll be under pressure from other quarters, Brexit, Covid plus whatever other incompetence or scandal they've gotten involved in.

This all adds into the mix of pressure and opposition and which is very difficult for any democratic country to withstand.   Even totalitarian dictatorships crumble when the populace cease to become afraid of them.

So you basically get to a position where something has to give, it really is the case of the infinite force meeting the immoveable object, except, I don't think the object is at all secure.

I don't think that will get to that stage.  I think, post May, there will be a realisation from the UKG, that they cannot block this indefinitely and it is a fight that is not worth having, that they cannot win and will only result in further damaging their position.   That's without even considering whether or not the SG could seek to hold an advisory referendum without WM permission and what the Supreme Court view would be on that.

Do I think that they'll make it easy for the SG, absolutely not but I'd fully expect that ultimately they will grant the transfer of power under a section 30.

It's interesting to read between the lines of what certain Unionist commentators are saying, when they start to discuss things like the question, the franchise and the likely timetable, you can tell they've conceded that there will be one.
 

Nice one for that - the key seems to be around them acting reasonably in what is meant to be a democracy but at the moment I'm torn between whether the SG being granted the powers or BJ driving a tank through Glasgow is the less likely.  It'll be interesting to see what happens if/when the HOL knock them back and send the bill back - I'd imagine a full on gnashing of teeth with the government of the people questioning the right of the privileged few to derail Brexit again.  

Only from my own mates and on the Stoke website but the SNP are getting a fairer crack of the whip with a larger chunk and quite a few now get why Independence support is still rumbling on.  Those of the more rouge physiognomy though are still pretty staunch and would potentially see granting another Independence referendum as opening up space for another Brexit one a few years later.

In terms of fair play and the rules of cricket I'd put BJ and Dom firmly in the Flashman type character where it works one way and getting a sneaky one over Johnny F or the colonials can be rationalised as being in their best interest.       

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19 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Its a difficult one but I'd say there are very many fair-minded, decent people in England but the problem is it is only ever the loud-mouthed bigots or gobshites of theirs that seem to get heard. It damages them. I suppose it is a bit like the England football fan abroad where the odd morons do all the damage.

The majority of English people are sound. I'd go so far as to say I'm an Anglophile.

The worst opponents of Scottish independence and those who hate Scotland's culture and heritage the most ........ are fellow Scots.

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9 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

The majority of English people are sound. I'd go so far as to say I'm an Anglophile.

The worst opponents of Scottish independence and those who hate Scotland's culture and heritage the most ........ are fellow Scots.

I can't disagree with that. Scottish unionists being more repugnent than others - in my opinion.

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25 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

The majority of English people are sound. I'd go so far as to say I'm an Anglophile.

The worst opponents of Scottish independence and those who hate Scotland's culture and heritage the most ........ are fellow Scots.

I work for a firm based in Yorkshire (I'm home based) and you couldn't meet a sounder bunch. No problems at all.

There are so called Scots that I wouldn't piss on if they were in flames. The types you saw in George Square the day after indyref1 being a prime example. And of course Scots Tories

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