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12 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Well it depends on how you want to paint the picture.

Play it smart (and accurate) then independence backers have every right to say Scottish government don't sweep anything under the carpet - even one of their own (and once top dog) will have accusations fully investigated. Whereas what happened to the Right Honorable (there is a laugh) Ted Heath who had plenty of allegations made about him - oh yes Westminster conveniently lost the files on him and other Tory figures. That is the way the Union deals with things.

That is how I would be painting it.

Hypothetically speaking.

What's worse.  Sweeping things under the carpet to protect an ally or making false allegations to damage an enemy?

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3 minutes ago, aaid said:

Hypothetically speaking.

What's worse.  Sweeping things under the carpet to protect an ally or making false allegations to damage an enemy?

True but the latter has also happened many times in Westminster.

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1 minute ago, Caledonian Craig said:

True but the latter has also happened many times in Westminster.

To the extent that someone's been had up on serious charges?

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Just now, aaid said:

To the extent that someone's been had up on serious charges?

I would be mightily surprised if not. It has certainly happened in recent times as we've seen with Jeremy Corbyn painted as racist and May being clearly undermined by Johnson during Brexit negotiations which would see her downfall. Yes I know these weren't via serious charges but it is still back-stabbing and I'd be gobsmacked if there hasn't been cases akin to Salmond's at Westminster. The Jeremy Thorpe issue springs immediately to mind. But in any case we are now indulging in supposition that Sturgeon was behind this all. Until Salmond actually comes out and fully accuses her then all we are doing here is indulging in supposition. What we know is that people within the SNP made allegations (found to be false) about Salmond but that is it.

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1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Well it depends on how you want to paint the picture.

Play it smart (and accurate) then independence backers have every right to say Scottish government don't sweep anything under the carpet - even one of their own (and once top dog) will have accusations fully investigated. Whereas what happened to the Right Honorable (there is a laugh) Ted Heath who had plenty of allegations made about him - oh yes Westminster conveniently lost the files on him and other Tory figures. That is the way the Union deals with things.

That is how I would be painting it.

Craig you do seem fixated with Ted Heath, did he invite you onboard his yacht once?

 

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1 minute ago, Toepoke said:

Craig you do seem fixated with Ted Heath, did he invite you onboard his yacht once?

 

Nah more fixated on outing Westminster and its seedy, dark background.

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26 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

Craig you do seem fixated with Ted Heath, did he invite you onboard his yacht once?

 

😂😂😂

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55 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I would be mightily surprised if not. It has certainly happened in recent times as we've seen with Jeremy Corbyn painted as racist and May being clearly undermined by Johnson during Brexit negotiations which would see her downfall. Yes I know these weren't via serious charges but it is still back-stabbing and I'd be gobsmacked if there hasn't been cases akin to Salmond's at Westminster. The Jeremy Thorpe issue springs immediately to mind. But in any case we are now indulging in supposition that Sturgeon was behind this all. Until Salmond actually comes out and fully accuses her then all we are doing here is indulging in supposition. What we know is that people within the SNP made allegations (found to be false) about Salmond but that is it.

That is crucial. People will forget about  some MP or top civil servant but if the FM is involved it completely different. And so it should be. 

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3 hours ago, Orraloon said:

They are going to need something to do over the coming months of isolation. Might as well get the knives sharpened.

A bit of division and infighting never did the Tories any harm. This will just make the SNP more like all other political parties. The divisions have always been there, right back to the 70s. Alex Salmond managed to keep those divisions under control and largely under the radar. This case is just starting to show them to the general public. 

Most folk who aren't political geeks probably won't care.

 

Which is fine if it wasn't for the independence case. At the moment the SNP are the only party ( and the Greens of course) that support it and anything that undermines them is going to weaken the case for independence. 
If unionist parties get into power here we can forget it. This might just be the shit storm that does it. If it wasnt for the Coronavirus it would have started by now. 

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3 hours ago, thplinth said:

This is not about 'two factions both attacking each other'. That denies the timeline of what happened and who did what.

Let's be clear, this is one 'faction' i.e. Team Nicola stabbing Alex Salmond in the back and trying get him sent to prison just so he cannot come back to politics.

Up until this trial I don't think the other faction even knew they were in a war never mind a battle (as Leslie Evans describes it).

But as a result of first, the judicial review that never was and now this trial it is now very clear to them that they are in a war and have been for sometime without even knowing it. But now they know I expect a little 'catching up' to take place.

It was one side who declared war on the other, not some conflict where both kicked off simultaneously, and it was done for the most shallow of self serving political reasons and to the utter destruction of the independence movement by effectively creating a civil war. The used a sledge hammer to crack a nut and surprise surprise they smashed the nut to fucking bits. This mess is entirely of their making.

The solution is for them all to resign.

Like I did with the AS trial, I will reserve judgement on NS’s involvement till all the facts are known.
That aside,  your post  is something we both agree on. 

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40 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Which is fine if it wasn't for the independence case. At the moment the SNP are the only party ( and the Greens of course) that support it and anything that undermines them is going to weaken the case for independence. 
If unionist parties get into power here we can forget it. This might just be the shit storm that does it. If it wasnt for the Coronavirus it would have started by now. 

It will be a shitstorm only if Alex wants to make it so. The Salmond case has gone much under the radar due to the corona virus. People have had other things on their mind the past few weeks so the case has not been at the forefront as it would have been if not for corona virus. That lessens its effect but if AS wants to he can re-ignite that shitstorm with what he may know (or not) about upper echelons at the SNP.

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4 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I would be mightily surprised if not. It has certainly happened in recent times as we've seen with Jeremy Corbyn painted as racist and May being clearly undermined by Johnson during Brexit negotiations which would see her downfall. Yes I know these weren't via serious charges but it is still back-stabbing and I'd be gobsmacked if there hasn't been cases akin to Salmond's at Westminster. The Jeremy Thorpe issue springs immediately to mind. But in any case we are now indulging in supposition that Sturgeon was behind this all. Until Salmond actually comes out and fully accuses her then all we are doing here is indulging in supposition. What we know is that people within the SNP made allegations (found to be false) about Salmond but that is it.

Yes the First Minister is innocent until proved otherwise, just as was with the former First Minister :ok:

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 1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

It will be a shitstorm only if Alex wants to make it so. The Salmond case has gone much under the radar due to the corona virus. People have had other things on their mind the past few weeks so the case has not been at the forefront as it would have been if not for corona virus. That lessens its effect but if AS wants to he can re-ignite that shitstorm with what he may know (or not) about upper echelons at the SNP.

Salmond could store it up for later use at an opportune time, 'if necessary' 😉

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9 minutes ago, exile said:

Yes the First Minister is innocent until proved otherwise, just as was with the former First Minister :ok:

Seems some have already made their minds up - in much the same way as others did with the former FM as soon as he was charged  

How you feel about an individual or his or her politics unfortunately colours a lot of people's views.  

Edited by aaid
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4 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I would be mightily surprised if not. It has certainly happened in recent times as we've seen with Jeremy Corbyn painted as racist and May being clearly undermined by Johnson during Brexit negotiations which would see her downfall. Yes I know these weren't via serious charges but it is still back-stabbing and I'd be gobsmacked if there hasn't been cases akin to Salmond's at Westminster. The Jeremy Thorpe issue springs immediately to mind. But in any case we are now indulging in supposition that Sturgeon was behind this all. Until Salmond actually comes out and fully accuses her then all we are doing here is indulging in supposition. What we know is that people within the SNP made allegations (found to be false) about Salmond but that is it.

IMO Sturgeon is not behind it however she has been naive and let herself be snookered, damned if does l, damned if she dont. She let herself get into a position that there was no good outcome for herself, had she quashed the allegations or stood behind alec that would have been a disaster, and we are now seeing the fall out for her not standing by alec.both bad outcomes 

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2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

It will be a shitstorm only if Alex wants to make it so. The Salmond case has gone much under the radar due to the corona virus. People have had other things on their mind the past few weeks so the case has not been at the forefront as it would have been if not for corona virus. That lessens its effect but if AS wants to he can re-ignite that shitstorm with what he may know (or not) about upper echelons at the SNP.

The man has been thrown to the wolves, why would he not ? 
If he can bring the perpetrators to justice whilst creating  minimum impact on independence he will have played the card of his life.   

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4 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

The man has been thrown to the wolves, why would he not ? 
If he can bring the perpetrators to justice whilst creating  minimum impact on independence he will have played the card of his life.   

Of course. But what is the effect of the shitstorm and who is it directed at? We only know it is certain figures in the SNP but until we hear from AS we will not know who that is. At present with the corona virus ravaging the country everything is on hold and we have no idea when things will return to a semblance of normality. It may be 3 months, 6 months or maybe not even a year. If it is that long we will have an idea by where he stands as candidate for 2021 elections and who he stands for. As an independent then that says to me that his blame lies with NS. If he stands as a SNP candidate it would say it is with lesser figures at the SNP.

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38 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Of course. But what is the effect of the shitstorm and who is it directed at? We only know it is certain figures in the SNP but until we hear from AS we will not know who that is. At present with the corona virus ravaging the country everything is on hold and we have no idea when things will return to a semblance of normality. It may be 3 months, 6 months or maybe not even a year. If it is that long we will have an idea by where he stands as candidate for 2021 elections and who he stands for. As an independent then that says to me that his blame lies with NS. If he stands as a SNP candidate it would say it is with lesser figures at the SNP.

You are right Craig , it really will be dependent on who is behind it. 
 

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Well i always thought we would get indy ref 2 in 2021 prior to the the holyrood elections however that will not happen now, no chance and maybe thats a good thing 

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9 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Well i always thought we would get indy ref 2 in 2021 prior to the the holyrood elections however that will not happen now, no chance and maybe thats a good thing 

I have a feeling that all elections will be put back by one year.

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5 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

I have a feeling that all elections will be put back by one year.

Local elections in England which were due to happen in May have already been but back by a year.

If we're still in a position that elections can't take place in a year's time it doesn't bear thinking about what things will be like. 

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4 hours ago, aaid said:

If we're still in a position that elections can't take place in a year's time it doesn't bear thinking about what things will be like. 

Yes I think Scottish independence will have moved down the priority list in the instance.

 

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1 hour ago, Toepoke said:

Yes I think Scottish independence will have moved down the priority list in the instance.

 

I agree that independence will be on the back burner for a while, at least officially. But unofficially, clearly people are still viewing the whole situation in indy v Unionism terms, and trying to politicise, or at least interpret, developments on those terms.

I thought I heard Gove say - perhaps emphasise - "national solidarity". I suppose it depends what nation you believe you belong to. Some who consider Scotland their nation won't be swayed by a virus. Those who are ambivalent (Scots Brits) might be swayed how well or badly the governemts do, or what the economy will look like at the end of the day. And, who knows will happen to Brexit?

Things may well resume exactly as they are 'when it's all over'. Like a new football season...

 

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5 minutes ago, exile said:

I agree that independence will be on the back burner for a while, at least officially. But unofficially, clearly people are still viewing the whole situation in indy v Unionism terms, and trying to politicise, or at least interpret, developments on those terms.

I thought I heard Gove say - perhaps emphasise - "national solidarity". I suppose it depends what nation you believe you belong to. Some who consider Scotland their nation won't be swayed by a virus. Those who are ambivalent (Scots Brits) might be swayed how well or badly the governemts do, or what the economy will look like at the end of the day. And, who knows will happen to Brexit?

Things may well resume exactly as they are 'when it's all over'. Like a new football season...

 

I understand there's currently a poll happening which is asking a question along the lines of "would the Coronavirus change how you'd vote in an Independence Referendum"

God only knows what's going on in the minds of whoever 's commissioned that.  

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Just now, aaid said:

I understand there's currently a poll happening which is asking a question along the lines of "would the Coronavirus change how you'd vote in an Independence Referendum"

God only knows what's going on in the minds of whoever 's commissioned that.  

Indeed, it's not exactly a priority right now

 

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