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7 minutes ago, Bonny79 said:

They are a circus act.   You don't see the NO lot dancing in the street or protesting. 

 

 The YES lot need to realise that they got what they wanted - a referendum back in 2014.  Respect it at least for a while. 

The SNP have won every election since the indy ref with a manifesto which wants to pursue independence so that needs to be respected, would you not agree? The “No lot” haven't the appetite or support to carry out such a march or they would, you would most likely be there championing it.     

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20 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

The SNP have won every election since the indy ref with a manifesto which wants to pursue independence so that needs to be respected, would you not agree? The “No lot” haven't the appetite or support to carry out such a march or they would, you would most likely be there championing it.     

No I don't march on any of those stupid things.  Far too sensible 

 

I just pray for rain, including the orange march. 

Edited by Bonny79

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35 minutes ago, Bonny79 said:

No I don't march on any of those stupid things.  Far too sensible 

 

I just pray for rain, including the orange march. 

Well what will be , will be, let the voting electorate decide, if they want a referendum, vote for a party with it in their manifesto, if they dont, vote for a party with it in their manifesto not to hold one. Can we agree on that

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1 hour ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Time for the serious work to start, away with the marches and the flags...

... we need to wipe away the flag waving nationalist and put across the forward thinking, economic savvy  

Not going to happen. Instead you are going to get endless 'progressive' politics from the SNP.

By "Flag Waving Nationalist" do you mean "Ethnic Nationalist"? This is the exact weird phrase the SNP also bandy about.

 

Edited by thplinth

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40 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

Well what will be , will be, let the voting electorate decide, if they want a referendum, vote for a party with it in their manifesto, if they dont, vote for a party with it in their manifesto not to hold one. Can we agree on that

We had a referendum 

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40 minutes ago, thplinth said:

Not going to happen. Instead you are going to get endless 'progressive' politics from the SNP.

By "Flag Waving Nationalist" do you mean "Ethnic Nationalist"? This is the exact weird phrase the SNP also bandy about.

 

I hope that this is just part of the jigsaw which is not visible to us at the moment, i am really happy that a good few old guard snp mps got reselected like mcaskill, I'm hoping this will stop to far of a lurch to the left, it cant be underestimated how good strategists the snp are, sometimes to get to a certain point you need to do some unsavoury detours. 

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I think it will be increasingly difficult for the Tories to be seen as democrats when you get people like Johnson and Jack saying they will not allow another referendum for a generation.  So, no matter how badly Scotland is treated, no matter how much she is ignored, they won't even allow Scotland to decide whether she wants to pack her bags and leave.  That's not a democracy, its a dictatorship.

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So what happens next?  I take it we wait until we're taken out of the EU against our will on January 31st?  Then what?  Wait for some other significant date, e.g. the next Holyrood elections where we might be able to tell Johnson that we'd really, really like a referendum?

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It's the least surprising outcome, that Johnson would say no. Yet, when it actually happens, the feeling hits you, they that really do mean it, they can and will do what they want, not matter what the Scottish political will. the fantasy of the Union is surely over. the fantasy that the UK is some kind of political union of 4 'nations' - a special kind of multi-national state, rather than a unitary state like France or Spain. Scotland never felt more like just a region with a regional government, in country that happens to be called a union.

The irony is the fantasy of the union is what swayed many unionists to vote No, that's the fantasy that Johnson is killing off.

From now on it seems more like the choice is either indy Scotland, or get used to being trapped as North Britain for the rest of your life. 

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9 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

I think it will be increasingly difficult for the Tories to be seen as democrats when you get people like Johnson and Jack saying they will not allow another referendum for a generation.  So, no matter how badly Scotland is treated, no matter how much she is ignored, they won't even allow Scotland to decide whether she wants to pack her bags and leave.  That's not a democracy, its a dictatorship.

It would be had it not been for 2014 

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After all the Westminster politicking and election campaign, it seems we've reached a point where the time for genuine debate is ripe and there are genuine choices and clear alternatives to what the next steps would be. I mean of course, different kinds of political route and legal routes, (e.g. James Kelly) and even in Craig Murray's case, securing international recognition (and even circumstances of deployment of the British Army). And need for fresh thinking and new ideas from all quarters (beyond slogans and soundbites from 2014-19). 

 

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8 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Did the SNP campaign for the latest election making it clear that a vote for them was a vote for an independence referendum?

Did you miss the whol election campaignn! It was only a month ago.  

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1 hour ago, exile said:

After all the Westminster politicking and election campaign, it seems we've reached a point where the time for genuine debate is ripe and there are genuine choices and clear alternatives to what the next steps would be. I mean of course, different kinds of political route and legal routes, (e.g. James Kelly) and even in Craig Murray's case, securing international recognition (and even circumstances of deployment of the British Army). And need for fresh thinking and new ideas from all quarters (beyond slogans and soundbites from 2014-19). 

 

Murray is right in a lot of the analysis in that piece - certainly in the preamble - but, IMHO, is wrong in a couple of salient points and in his conclusions.

What he's correct in is that there's almost certainly no legal mechanism to either bounce the UKG into a referendum it doesn't want to have nor would any referendum held by the SG without the proper backing of the UKG be considered legal.   I say almost because it's never been explicitly tested in court but the likelihood based on other decisions is that it it were, it would fail.

The key to becoming independent is being recognised as such by the international community, or at least the majority of it.   He draws comparisons between Kosovo and Catalonia.    

Kosovo did declare UDI from Serbia and that was recognised by a number of international states  - not all, I think Russia didn't and may still not recognise it.  Kosovo is now an independent state. 

Spain - alone among the EU, does not recognise Kosovan independence - we'll come on to why that's important.

However, that also needs to be taken in the context that the Kosovan declaration came off the back of a war, in which NATO intervened on behalf of the Kosovans and against a country - Serbia - which was pretty much a pariah state, at least as far as western nations were concerned.

No matter how repressive and brutal the actions of the Spanish state is in respect of Catalonia, it is not considered a pariah state.   I completely get the point about the EU acting as a club and so its member states not supporting or recognising Catalan independence however no other nation - anywhere in the world - recognised it.

Murray seems to be suggesting that because of Brexit, once the UK leaves the EU, then the EU would be minded to admit Scotland and recognise it as an independent nation.   I agree with the basis of that but I don't think it is unconditional.   If the route to that is legal under the UK constitution - and any form of UDI would almost certainly not be - then I think that's the case.  If it isn't though, there is a big problem and that is Spain and its position wrt to Catalonia.

Spain holds that Catalonia cannot unilaterally secede and that Spanish constitution is pretty explicit on this.    That's the reason - despite false claims to the contrary - that Spain would not veto Scotland joining the EU as long as that had been done in a way that is legal under the UK constitution.   Whether you agree with their position, Spain are at least consistent in its view that what is important is what the constitution allows.   

That's also why they do not recognise Kosovo.    

Now international recognition is not something that the EU does, that is something individual member states do - and Spain's refusal wouldn't necessarily mean that the other 26 member states would follow suit.  It would however mean that Spain would veto EU membership, which would be a huge problem.

Scotland's position is much closer to that of Catalonia than Kosovo.

There are some hard truths here.     Without a supportive UK government - or at least one which is bounced into a position where it can no longer legitimately oppose - its impossible to hold a referendum that would be both legal and which would demonstrate conclusively that there was support for independence.   Without that legal basis and conclusive result, there will be no international recognition.  Without international recognition there will be no independence.  

 

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2 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Did the SNP campaign for the latest election making it clear that a vote for them was a vote for an independence referendum?

The Tory leaflets certainly made it clear. A vote for SNP was a vote for another independence referendum.

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