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4 minutes ago, AndyDD said:

Precisely aye, they have previous on this. 

Agreed, seems highly improbable. It's PM or bust for Corbyn this time I think, I would expect his successor to be less open to conceding a section 30. 

What i find increasingly frustrating as the years have rolled on since the Brexit vote, is the missed opportunity of Sturgeon not seizing on the chaos during the immediate aftermath of the Brexit result to request the S30 then, while the government were in absolute disarray.

I only say this with perfect hindsight of course, so i'm not blaming her for being hesitant. It's just an annoying missed opportunity.

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5 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

What i find increasingly frustrating as the years have rolled on since the Brexit vote, is the missed opportunity of Sturgeon not seizing on the chaos during the immediate aftermath of the Brexit result to request the S30 then, while the government were in absolute disarray.

I only say this with perfect hindsight of course, so i'm not blaming her for being hesitant. It's just an annoying missed opportunity.

She did and got told by May: 'Now is not the time.' Didn't she?

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12 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

What i find increasingly frustrating as the years have rolled on since the Brexit vote, is the missed opportunity of Sturgeon not seizing on the chaos during the immediate aftermath of the Brexit result to request the S30 then, while the government were in absolute disarray.

I only say this with perfect hindsight of course, so i'm not blaming her for being hesitant. It's just an annoying missed opportunity.

I share that, it felt like there was momentum in the initial aftermath, but at the same time you could argue it worked out in some ways, in that Boris Johnson is now the PM. Him in that role is a big plus point for the Indy argument. 

Plus, harder to suggest post referendum Britain was never given a chance to see how it would work things out. The 'UK' will have had two GE's and  at least one new PM, but still not come to its senses. If rUK plumps for Johnson in a GE, again it will send a message about how different a direction they are looking in elsewhere in these isles. 

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40 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

She did and got told by May: 'Now is not the time.' Didn't she?

Nah, she waited a whole year before submitting the request (which wasn't actually a request, apparently!), and then May completely wrongfooted her by calling the election in which the SNP lost a load of seats, thereby forcing Sturgeon to 'reset' her timetable.

Lesson to be learned: Strike while the iron's hot.

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19 minutes ago, Bonny79 said:

Surely any party ignoring the referendum is anti democratic? 

An *advisory* referendum. 

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26 minutes ago, Bonny79 said:

Surely any party ignoring the referendum is anti democratic? 

Refusing to vote for it is not the same as ignoring it. 

Trying to get at least customs union membership and/or single market inclusion is not the same as ignoring it. 

Saying, 'if you lot insist on doing this then we cannae stop ye, but at least respect our clearly different view on the topic enough to give us a chance to decide which of the two we prefer' is not the same as ignoring it. 

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16 hours ago, AndyDD said:

Refusing to vote for it is not the same as ignoring it. 

Trying to get at least customs union membership and/or single market inclusion is not the same as ignoring it. 

Saying, 'if you lot insist on doing this then we cannae stop ye, but at least respect our clearly different view on the topic enough to give us a chance to decide which of the two we prefer' is not the same as ignoring it. 

It's everything but ignoring it though. 

 

 

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16 hours ago, aaid said:

An *advisory* referendum. 

Only because the losing side shout louder.  You can bet your bum that it wouldn't be thought of as Advisory so much if it had went the other way. 

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1 hour ago, Bonny79 said:

Only because the losing side shout louder.  You can bet your bum that it wouldn't be thought of as Advisory so much if it had went the other way. 

No only advisory because that's the law. 

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3 hours ago, aaid said:

No only advisory because that's the law. 

But if remain win the country is already remained.  So leave can't win even if they win the referendum.  

What's the point in the referendum then? 

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I have no idea who this bloke is but a Tory moving to SNP and Indy must be seen as positive. Sorry for the massive font I am copying a  link from the Times paywall on an iphone and dont think I can change it. 
 

Boris Johnson’s party must be destroyed, says former Tory adviser Bendor Grosvenor

Charlie Parker

November 6 2019, 5:00pm, The Times

Bendor Grosvenor, who presents Britain's Lost Masterpieces for the BBC, said that the “broad church” of the Conservative Party had been driven into the crypt
Bendor Grosvenor, who presents Britain's Lost Masterpieces for the BBC, said that the “broad church” of the Conservative Party had been driven into the cryptGLASGOW MUSEUMS/PA
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A prominent art historian and former Conservative adviser has cut ties with the Tories, saying that it is time to “destroy” the party.

Bendor Grosvenor, who is a co-presenter of BBC4’s Britain’s Lost Masterpieces, has voted Conservative for more than 20 years but blames “Johnsonian Toryism” and Brexit for driving “the broad church into the crypt”.

Grosvenor, 41, said that scandals, political purges and hardline support for leaving the European Union was driving many old-fashioned, liberal conservatives away.

The broadcaster, who was educated at Harrow and Cambridge and lives near Edinburgh, says he will now vote for the SNP.

He became a Tory member in 1997 and took an active role in the party after meeting Hugo Swire, the former Conservative shadow arts minister. “We ended up writing the cultural and heritage section of the Tory manifesto for the 2005 election. That was the highlight of my political career,” he said.

 

“Each time Kenneth Clarke ran for the leadership I was there supporting his campaign as a donor and a bit of a worker.”

Recent political events, including the illegal prorogation of parliament in August, had filled him with frustration and sadness, he said. “The Tory party has been the most successful political party in modern history, and yet it is running its campaign at the moment as if it couldn’t run a bath.”

Comments made this week by the Conservative MPs Jacob Rees-Moggand Andrew Bridgen about the Grenfell fire were the last straw for Grosvenor, who is related to the Duke of Westminster.

Mr Rees-Mogg, the leader of the Commons, said that it would have been “common sense” for tower residents to ignore advice given to them by firefighters and flee the burning west London tower block in 2017. After public outcry Mr Bridgen went on Radio 4’s PM to defend the comments, saying that Mr Rees-Mogg would have made a “better decision” than authority figures on the night.

On Twitter Grosvenor wrote: “I’ve voted for, worked for, been a member of, and even a historian of, the Conservative Party. It is time now to destroy it, to smash it utterly, so that people like Rees-Mogg and Bridgen can never be near power again.

“It was that jaw dropping interview with Andrew Bridgen on Radio 4 after Jacob Rees-Mogg’s similarly extraordinary comments. I have been drifting apart from the conservatives for a long time. But yesterday I just thought it is time.”

The expulsion of Tory ministers and MPs who rebelled against Boris Johnson’s Brexit plan in September — including Mr Clarke, who has now stood down — was another “watershed moment where people like me thought there was no return,” Grosvenor added. “I plead guilty to what Brexiteers call Brexit derangement syndrome.

“Small ‘c’ conservative values I have always signed up for — as old-fashioned as it sounds, valuing the constitution as it is in part. On the decision to prorogue parliament and the all the legal ramifications and Supreme Court case: If the Conservative party has contempt for those basic conservative tenets then what is left of it?”

The Tory leadership was also in the crosshairs. “When I was working in politics I encountered Boris Johnson a few times,” Grosvenor said. “He always seemed to be shambolic and to bear the impression of whoever sat on him last. I don’t think that proves to make effective leadership at moments of crisis like this.”

Grosvenor, who recently discovered a work by Peter Paul Rubens for his TV show, now pins his hopes on the SNP before the general election on December 12.

“I think I would vote for the SNP. Brexit, the May government and now the Johnson government have so shaken the foundations of everything that we took to be the settled constitutional and political order. Now all bets are off.

“I don’t view any of the options with great enthusiasm. It’s a moment of profound frustration and sadness that it’s come to this.”

He also claims the question of Scottish independence no longer a matter of whether, but when, describing it as inevitable. “If there was a referendum tomorrow, I would support it.”

 



 

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49 minutes ago, Bonny79 said:

But if remain win the country is already remained.  So leave can't win even if they win the referendum.  

What's the point in the referendum then? 

Nope, me neither 🤔

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4 minutes ago, Bonny79 said:

Point is if remain had won the referendum would no longer be advisory.   Leave would be told to shut its faces. 

The legal status of the referendum would still be the same.  I doubt Leave would have shut their faces and I've no doubt they'd still be agitating for another referendum. Farage said as much when he initially conceded defeat on the night -"this isn't over"

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18 minutes ago, aaid said:

The legal status of the referendum would still be the same.  I doubt Leave would have shut their faces and I've no doubt they'd still be agitating for another referendum. Farage said as much when he initially conceded defeat on the night -"this isn't over"

Farrage might not have but others would have conceded.  

 

I would be respecting the result had remaine won.  That's the whole point of referendums - majority wins. 

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People are actually having a serious conversation with bonny ? :rollsmile:

You know I'm convinced he's a spam account of a regular (or former regular) poster who votes SNP, supports independence and remaining in the EU.

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46 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

People are actually having a serious conversation with bonny ? :rollsmile:

You know I'm convinced he's a spam account of a regular (or former regular) poster who votes SNP, supports independence and remaining in the EU.

Incorrect.  I ve only had one account bonny 78 previously 

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On 11/2/2019 at 11:10 AM, Caledonian Craig said:

For those that swear blind that Scotland if independent would not be accepted into the EU I find that hard to believe.

Apparently, North Macedonia has been denied a place in the EU as only France vetoed their being accepted into the EU. Scotland is a wealthier country than North Macedonia and as far as exporting goes they export 16 times more goods than North Macedonia. 

North Macedonia and Albania were denied the opening of accession talks (there's a difference) as France and the Netherlands were not in favour.

Montenegro, for whom accession talks are already open, are being fucked over by Brexit. Until Brexit is finally signed and delivered, there will be no further New Member States. Indeed if Scotland goes independent in the next couple of years, it will go to the head of the queue without a doubt.

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38 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

North Macedonia and Albania were denied the opening of accession talks (there's a difference) as France and the Netherlands were not in favour.

Montenegro, for whom accession talks are already open, are being fucked over by Brexit. Until Brexit is finally signed and delivered, there will be no further New Member States. Indeed if Scotland goes independent in the next couple of years, it will go to the head of the queue without a doubt.

There is no queue to be at the head of, or tail of for that matter. 

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8 minutes ago, aaid said:

There is no queue to be at the head of, or tail of for that matter. 

Sorry to have to contradict you aaid - there is.

I work on the inside of that line of business.

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59 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

North Macedonia and Albania were denied the opening of accession talks (there's a difference) as France and the Netherlands were not in favour.

Montenegro, for whom accession talks are already open, are being fucked over by Brexit. Until Brexit is finally signed and delivered, there will be no further New Member States. Indeed if Scotland goes independent in the next couple of years, it will go to the head of the queue without a doubt.

My point stands though that those countries got very close to getting allowed in and have a far poorer economy than Scotland.

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