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3 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

It might be difficult to "commence negotiations" if the UK government just refuse to talk about it. 

Winning an election might be a more common way of gaining independence in recent years than via a referendum, and international recognition would be key.   After that, I'm sure they'd be glad to unburden themselves of us 🤨

If rUK are out of the EU, then a no-deal Scotchit (sorry) wouldn't hold much fear and we'd be debt free.   However, I did note Boris reckons we'd be screwed post-Brexit...

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I tell you what, if we get a great Brexit and a successful pragmatic Brexit it would be a wonderful thing to entrench and intensify the Union and I tell you why. If the whole UK comes out of the EU, what does the SNP do?

 

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On 7/6/2019 at 11:44 PM, Dave78 said:

How many times have the SNP asked non-indy supporters to 'lend' them their votes lately?

You and i both know what you say is right, but just watch unionists spin that back at us.

Oh, medium to long term i'd agree with you. The medium term being until the Tories finally get kicked out of power.

I've said on here before (with the benefit of 20-20 hindsight) that the moment to push for the referendum was in the middle of that crazy week after the Brexit result. It could have been made a fait accompli. That hasn't happened, so IMO the next best thing will be for Sturgeon to launch the Supreme Court legal battle for the right to hold a referendum the minute we leave the EU. 

Btw, as an aside, do you feel the Spanish government's position on Catalonia is sustainable? I can see support for Catalan indy rising to 60% and staying there for decades, and the Spanish government not giving a flying fuck...and nobody - not the EU or UN - will care.

Aye, it was good. Was up there with Lord Foulkes 'But they're doing it deliberately!!' stuff.

I wouldn't try and draw any comparisons between Scotland and Catalonia.  The position in Catalonia is very different from that in Scotland in a political, cultural, constitutional and legal sense. I couldn't see any circumstances that a UK government would or even could act in the same way that the Spanish Government has done.   


 

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2 hours ago, aaid said:

I wouldn't try and draw any comparisons between Scotland and Catalonia.  The position in Catalonia is very different from that in Scotland in a political, cultural, constitutional and legal sense. I couldn't see any circumstances that a UK government would or even could act in the same way that the Spanish Government has done.   


 

I would.  If the UK refuses us permission to have a legal vote it's exactly the same.  The EU will say they don't meddle with internal matters of a state.

There's a polity and a culture, similar to its neighbor, that wants self determination.

The kingdom was put together by royal union.  Their political domination was completed around the same time as Scotland's.  Sure there's been a dictatorship and a civil war.  Real oppression.  

If anything I would say Catalonia has more of a case for a right to self determination than Scotland does.  Do the international community care?  Nope.

There are obviously differences between any country.  That's just a fact but the similarities are striking.  The key difference I always found was the Unionists in Scotland would back Scotland's decision either way.  Whereas Catalonia's unionists 'may' not.  I think the former is far less likely than it's ever been.  And the idea of a boycott is far more likely now than ever from Scotland's No side.  The UK government are certainly banking on it.

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, PapofGlencoe said:

I would.  If the UK refuses us permission to have a legal vote it's exactly the same.  The EU will say they don't meddle with internal matters of a state.

There's a polity and a culture, similar to its neighbor, that wants self determination.

The kingdom was put together by royal union.  Their political domination was completed around the same time as Scotland's.  Sure there's been a dictatorship and a civil war.  Real oppression.  

If anything I would say Catalonia has more of a case for a right to self determination than Scotland does.  Do the international community care?  Nope.

There are obviously differences between any country.  That's just a fact but the similarities are striking.  The key difference I always found was the Unionists in Scotland would back Scotland's decision either way.  Whereas Catalonia's unionists 'may' not.  I think the former is far less likely than it's ever been.  And the idea of a boycott is far more likely now than ever from Scotland's No side.  The UK government are certainly banking on it.

 

 

 

The Spanish Constitution is explicit in stating that one part of Spain can only secede if the whole of Spain agrees.   Whether you agree that should not be the case isn't particularly relevant here.  It's also the context in which Spain would not seek to interfere should Scotland secede under the terms of the UK constitution - which would have been the case in 2014.    As the UK does not have an written constitution it will be up to the Supreme Court to opine on whether or not a referendum called by Holyrood without a section 30 order would be legal or not.   
 

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1 hour ago, aaid said:

The Spanish Constitution is explicit in stating that one part of Spain can only secede if the whole of Spain agrees.   Whether you agree that should not be the case isn't particularly relevant here.  It's also the context in which Spain would not seek to interfere should Scotland secede under the terms of the UK constitution - which would have been the case in 2014.    As the UK does not have an written constitution it will be up to the Supreme Court to opine on whether or not a referendum called by Holyrood without a section 30 order would be legal or not.   
 

well aware of all that.  

You're right.  We're one likely judgement away from being in the same position.  

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The EU is sometimes accused of being a tyrannical, undemocratic superstate. Yet it never blocked a referendum. If UK did that, what would it make the UK look like? How could freedom lovin Conservatives & democratic Brexiteers  justify that? 

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1 hour ago, exile said:

The EU is sometimes accused of being a tyrannical, undemocratic superstate. Yet it never blocked a referendum. If UK did that, what would it make the UK look like? How could freedom lovin Conservatives & democratic Brexiteers  justify that? 

They couldn’t, well not without some cognitive dissonance. 

But anyone looking to the state for freedom is gonna be disappointed. 

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😳

47 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

They couldn’t, well not without some cognitive dissonance. 

But anyone looking to the state for freedom is gonna be disappointed. 

Probably right, but how do Australian authorities view anarchists?     (Sorry, I'm not a threat btw! :headbang: )

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14 hours ago, Grim Jim said:

😳

Probably right, but how do Australian authorities view anarchists?     (Sorry, I'm not a threat btw! :headbang: )

Haha I’m not an anarchist. I’m paid by the government 

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6 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Haha I’m not an anarchist. I’m paid by the government 

The current government is as close to anarchy as we are ever likely to see.

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Craig Murray article that talks about the prevalence of the 'security services' in trolling places... well like here.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/07/how-to-spot-a-twitter-troll/

Quote

 

ORIGINAL POST

It is a matter of simple fact that the British government employs a very large number of people whose full time job is to influence the political narrative on social media. The 77th Brigade of the British Army, the Integrity Initiative, MI5 and MI6 and GCHQ all run major programmes of covert online propaganda. These information warriors operate on twitter, facebook, and in comments sections across the internet.

I have long been fascinated by the disconnect by which people, who do know and understand that the security services employ tens of thousands of people and have budgets of billions, nevertheless find it hard to accept that they may come personally into contact with their operations. Therefore when I state that the security services infiltrate groups including environmentalists and the SNP, and were involved in the Skripal story in ways not public, there is a peculiar desire among people to reject it as it is uncomfortable. Equally while people do know the security services are committing huge sums to social media influencing, to point out any of its instances brings derisive shouts of “conspiracy theory”.

 

I have zero doubt Murray is correct.

On that basis who in the SNP is an infiltrator (in your opinion)?

Nicola Sturgeon is my immediate nomination. She took a vibrant, super energized movement and gradually turned into her boring radical feminist agenda shite.

As evidenced by the utter fuds who represent the SNP on here these days.

 

Edited by thplinth
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Tig, you're it thplinth!   I've had my suspicions :P

Actually, I remember Salmond before his expulsion.   A young lefty radical compared with the SNP establishment then.   I was a member for a short time.   We (students) did some legwork, but when it came to reselection of candidates the old guard came around to vote in the old guys ...though some posts were offered to the young and enthusiastic.

Now this was a long time ago, and I even started thinking the term Tartan Tory may have had some justification.   I'm not criticizing the old guard's enthusiasm for independence ...which preceded the 70's oil boom for instance.   It's just that it was not what I hoped for.

However, what I see now is that to gain independence, a broad church has to be appealed to.   Just a for instance, but it seems that Salmond did not attract a high enough number of Scots women voters.   Mind you Mrs Grim does not like either he nor Sturgeon (maybe its the fish) ...but then again, I have not found any politician she does actually identify with.   Oanyhoo...

I don't think revolutionary barricades (for instance) are the answer at the moment (however romantic they seem), and remember cavalry were emplaced in Hamilton barracks long before Winnie was born (in case of another Calton or whatever).   Bread and circuses are not yet in short supply.   Appeal needs to be made to all sorts of people, not just politically motivated.

If you think a McTrump (sorry) would deliver independence, then that would be a right riddie.   Truely shameful for me if I ever had to leave these shores.   You've pointed out his one redeeming feature of not being a war monger, but elsewise his path I leads to no liberté, égalité nor fraternité.   Nicola is playing a steady game, impatient though I personally am.

 

(ffs I've left enough bullshite there to rip open.  Zebedee tells me to gtf!   :unsure:)

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2 hours ago, Grim Jim said:

 

If you think a McTrump (sorry) would deliver independence, then that would be a right riddie.   Truely shameful for me if I ever had to leave these shores.   You've pointed out his one redeeming feature of not being a war monger, but elsewise his path I leads to no liberté, égalité nor fraternité.   Nicola is playing a steady game, impatient though I personally am.

 

@thplinth certainly believes that. Pretty sure he's said as much in the past. Please correct me if i'm wrong.

It's a frustration that's as old as the SNP itself. There was Left versus Right....The 79 group..... gradualism versus fundamentalism..... and now progressives versus social conservatives. The election of Trump (and the US culture wars) picks at old scabs and creates new ones.

 

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22 hours ago, Grim Jim said:

Tig, you're it thplinth!   I've had my suspicions :P

Actually, I remember Salmond before his expulsion.   A young lefty radical compared with the SNP establishment then.   I was a member for a short time.   We (students) did some legwork, but when it came to reselection of candidates the old guard came around to vote in the old guys ...though some posts were offered to the young and enthusiastic.

Now this was a long time ago, and I even started thinking the term Tartan Tory may have had some justification.   I'm not criticizing the old guard's enthusiasm for independence ...which preceded the 70's oil boom for instance.   It's just that it was not what I hoped for.

However, what I see now is that to gain independence, a broad church has to be appealed to.   Just a for instance, but it seems that Salmond did not attract a high enough number of Scots women voters.   Mind you Mrs Grim does not like either he nor Sturgeon (maybe its the fish) ...but then again, I have not found any politician she does actually identify with.   Oanyhoo...

I don't think revolutionary barricades (for instance) are the answer at the moment (however romantic they seem), and remember cavalry were emplaced in Hamilton barracks long before Winnie was born (in case of another Calton or whatever).   Bread and circuses are not yet in short supply.   Appeal needs to be made to all sorts of people, not just politically motivated.

If you think a McTrump (sorry) would deliver independence, then that would be a right riddie.   Truely shameful for me if I ever had to leave these shores.   You've pointed out his one redeeming feature of not being a war monger, but elsewise his path I leads to no liberté, égalité nor fraternité.   Nicola is playing a steady game, impatient though I personally am.

 

(ffs I've left enough bullshite there to rip open.  Zebedee tells me to gtf!   :unsure:)

I am as for independence as it gets. Yet I am at the point I'd have to abstain than vote for NS's SNP. I am actually quite worried she is in charge of our last chance at indyref. She will fuck it up and is totally the wrong person to run the campaign if indyref2 ever happens.

If Donald Trump was Scottish and was a big Independence supporter would I have taken him as leader of the SNP instead of Salmond? This is a crazy what if question but had we had a Trump instead of Salmond in 2014 we would have won. You need a Trump to win something like this. Not some virtue signally boring bland shite that amounts to fuck all like the current SNP. Salmond was way too soft as well and still is.

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As has been said before, Sturgeon's job is to run the Scottish Government; that needs determination, hard work, attention to detail on the 'day job', diplomacy, a careful balancing of opposing political forces, and wooing reluctant unionists, not just being a passionate nationalist. Who says she also needs to lead the indy ref campaign? If you want someone else to run that, fine, but who?  

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10 hours ago, exile said:

As has been said before, Sturgeon's job is to run the Scottish Government; that needs determination, hard work, attention to detail on the 'day job', diplomacy, a careful balancing of opposing political forces, and wooing reluctant unionists, not just being a passionate nationalist. Who says she also needs to lead the indy ref campaign? If you want someone else to run that, fine, but who?  

From where i am standing if an indy ref gets off and running NS should in no way run the campaign, Angus Robertson and i might get nailed for this but Henry Mcliesh also,, Labour voters are the key to independence 

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As long as they keep that Blair Jenkins, aka The Invisible Man, well out the road this time.  As much use as a fkin chocolate teapot.  The only thing I remember from him was trying to tell us at a meeting that there was no BBC bias.

Someone further up was talking about plants?  Well it wouldn't surprise me if that guy was one of them.

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14 minutes ago, daviebee said:

As long as they keep that Blair Jenkins, aka The Invisible Man, well out the road this time.  As much use as a fkin chocolate teapot.  The only thing I remember from him was trying to tell us at a meeting that there was no BBC bias.

Someone further up was talking about plants?  Well it wouldn't surprise me if that guy was one of them.

My sentiments exactly. 

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5 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

From where i am standing if an indy ref gets off and running NS should in no way run the campaign, Angus Robertson and i might get nailed for this but Henry Mcliesh also,, Labour voters are the key to independence 

Has Henry McLeish come out in favour of independence? I must have missed it. I remember him saying that he would consider voting for independence, because of brexit, but that's not quite the commitment I would want from somebody who is to lead the campaign. 

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56 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Has Henry McLeish come out in favour of independence? I must have missed it. I remember him saying that he would consider voting for independence, because of brexit, but that's not quite the commitment I would want from somebody who is to lead the campaign. 

Henry McLeish is still sitting firmly on the fence.   I suspect if there's a big Labour name to come out full Indy, its likely to be David Martin, the former MEP.

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1 hour ago, Orraloon said:

Has Henry McLeish come out in favour of independence? I must have missed it. I remember him saying that he would consider voting for independence, because of brexit, but that's not quite the commitment I would want from somebody who is to lead the campaign. 

As far as I'm aware McLeish is still a unionist who wants maximum devolution but concedes that the latter has not been delivered.

Btw for a bit light relief here's a BBC article from 2001 where McLeish says exactly what he really thinks about his "comrades" John Reid and Brian Wilson - http://news.bbc.co.uk/news/vote2001/hi/english/scotland/newsid_1378000/1378867.stm  :lol:

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3 hours ago, daviebee said:

As long as they keep that Blair Jenkins, aka The Invisible Man, well out the road this time.  As much use as a fkin chocolate teapot.  The only thing I remember from him was trying to tell us at a meeting that there was no BBC bias.

Someone further up was talking about plants?  Well it wouldn't surprise me if that guy was one of them.

 

3 hours ago, antidote said:

My sentiments exactly. 

Planted by who? 

In 2012, the Greens, the SSP, and others were complaining Yes Scotland was an SNP puppet organisation. Blair Jenkins had already been appointed by this point, so i think it's safe to assume Jenkins was Salmond's man.

Do you think Salmond unwittingly (or for extra conspiracy-theory points - consciously!) appointed a secret Britnat as boss of the Yes campaign? 

 

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15 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

 

Planted by who? 

In 2012, the Greens, the SSP, and others were complaining Yes Scotland was an SNP puppet organisation. Blair Jenkins had already been appointed by this point, so i think it's safe to assume Jenkins was Salmond's man.

Do you think Salmond unwittingly (or for extra conspiracy-theory points - consciously!) appointed a secret Britnat as boss of the Yes campaign? 

 

The Edinburgh Agreement mandated that the CEOs of both campaigns had to be called Blair.   Better Together got in first and secured Blair McDougall, so Yes were left with either Blair Jenkins or Blair Sturrock.  

Thats at least as plausible as Blair Jenkins being a plant. 

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