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In other news I see that at the SNP conference that in a vote on potential currency after independence they voted to introduce their own currency as fast as is praticable voting against Sturgeon's plan of remaining with the pound in the interim in a currency union with the UK then look to introduce their own currency.

Edited by Caledonian Craig

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1 minute ago, Caledonian Craig said:

In other news I see that at the SNP conference that in a vote on potential currency after independence they voted to introduce their own currency as fast as is praticable voting against Sturgeon's plan of remaining with the pound in the interim in a currency union with the UK then look to introduce their own currency.

Are you sure that's what they voted for?

 

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8 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Are you sure that's what they voted for?

 

Okay SNP members voted for that and its likely that will become the way forward. I know many SNP Mp's prefer that route too.

Edited by Caledonian Craig

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On 4/27/2019 at 12:59 AM, Ally Bongo said:

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Interesting. So looks like pro-indy parties up,.. But the Brexit party suddenly has a presence much larger than what UKIP had, including a foothold in Holyrood? so erosion/fragmentation of unionist vote?  

Labour sinking to 4th! That; snot quite the Corbyn effect? But I'll believe it when I see it. 

Change UK coming out of nowhere; I wonder, do they just have one policy (mirror image of Brexit party), or are they even attempting to be a political party? Presumably they are unionist by default, but who knows, if they want to shake up the UK, how better than to "break up Britain"?  But... are there any identifiable Scottish 'Chukker' voices? 

Finally - I'm just catching up on politics - what was the view on that 49:51 poll, is it considered trustworthy? But even so, it gives a flavour of what it might feel like if the polls showed this, or level, going into an indyref.  Seems to me there's a big difference between 45 and 49. 45 seems like things fought to a standstill, momentum flatlined,  as food as 2014 rerun, s safe margin for the status quo, business as usual. But 49 would seem like a new momentum, a direction of travel, squeaky bum time....

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56 minutes ago, exile said:

Interesting. So looks like pro-indy parties up,.. But the Brexit party suddenly has a presence much larger than what UKIP had, including a foothold in Holyrood? so erosion/fragmentation of unionist vote?  

Labour sinking to 4th! That; snot quite the Corbyn effect? But I'll believe it when I see it. 

Change UK coming out of nowhere; I wonder, do they just have one policy (mirror image of Brexit party), or are they even attempting to be a political party? Presumably they are unionist by default, but who knows, if they want to shake up the UK, how better than to "break up Britain"?  But... are there any identifiable Scottish 'Chukker' voices? 

Finally - I'm just catching up on politics - what was the view on that 49:51 poll, is it considered trustworthy? But even so, it gives a flavour of what it might feel like if the polls showed this, or level, going into an indyref.  Seems to me there's a big difference between 45 and 49. 45 seems like things fought to a standstill, momentum flatlined,  as food as 2014 rerun, s safe margin for the status quo, business as usual. But 49 would seem like a new momentum, a direction of travel, squeaky bum time....

The Indy poll is trustworthy, or at least as trustworthy as any poll by a reputable organisation that uses the standard 2014 question.   General consensus is that there seems to have been a small movement in support in the last few months.  There haven't been that many Indy polls recently, probably need more to see if there's a trend that'll continue. 

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1 hour ago, aaid said:

The Indy poll is trustworthy, or at least as trustworthy as any poll by a reputable organisation that uses the standard 2014 question.   General consensus is that there seems to have been a small movement in support in the last few months.  There haven't been that many Indy polls recently, probably need more to see if there's a trend that'll continue. 

Thanks. 

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1 hour ago, phart said:

Always good to have a healthy debate, it tests how strong each proposition is.

This quote at the end is worrying though.

" One final point: Councillor Rhiannon Spear rightly said in a point of order that the debate was far too male dominated, a point no one could surely question. A new economics has to also be an economics where women lead the debate - something all sides can surely agree on.!

Economics is a mathematical science for the most part, it doesn't care about the gender of who leads it, it's empirically based. As Feynman told us all

""For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled."

just substitute technology for policy. Worrying about the gender,sexuality,age or skin colour of the person making the decision over their actual ability to make the decision is hamstringing everything.

Reality is utterly indifferent to to what humans beings wish or think about reality.

Edited by phart
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1 hour ago, phart said:

This quote at the end is worrying though.

" One final point: Councillor Rhiannon Spear rightly said in a point of order that the debate was far too male dominated, a point no one could surely question. A new economics has to also be an economics where women lead the debate - something all sides can surely agree on.!

Economics is a mathematical science for the most part, it doesn't care about the gender of who leads it, it's empirically based. As Feynman told us all

""For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled."

just substitute technology for policy. Worrying about the gender,sexuality,age or skin colour of the person making the decision over their actual ability to make the decision is hamstringing everything.

Reality is utterly indifferent to to what humans beings wish or think about reality.

Yes maths is gender blind - and species blind - and may even an abstraction beyond 'reality'.  And scientific answers are based on reality of nature and not what humans would like to think. So I agree that far.

However...  A lot of the times, the questions that science is asked to answer, the agenda that is set, and the framing of debate, are set by the powerful, who are often men, and serve those interests. I don't have time to give examples right now but examples can surely be found. 

I think there's a crucial difference between technology and policy. Technology is based on reality that exists (the reality of semiconductors, electrons existing or not, or what  materials makes bridges stand up). But policy is about moving the world in the direction we would like it to go. It's about how the world 'should' be which may be different from how it actually is today. Another big topic for debate.

Calling for women to "lead" rather than to share equally, is in danger of getting the backs up of the other half of the population. Being gender blind on this point would seem more constructive - thought sometimes there's a time and place for provocation, when fighting inequality.

Whether or not economics is a science is, I think, up for debate. 

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Nothing is a "science" science is using the scientific method. The competent economists use the scientific method.

None of it covers my point though, thinking things like gender should take precedence over ability.

Managed to get any of these examples you claim exist yet been 13 hours? Also let's be real SNP will pick the economist that is saying what they want them to say anyway. The most competent should make the plans not some subjective person picked by whatever forces are present in the current culture war.

Edited by phart

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23 hours ago, exile said:

I

Finally - I'm just catching up on politics - what was the view on that 49:51 poll, is it considered trustworthy? But even so, it gives a flavour of what it might feel like if the polls showed this, or level, going into an indyref.  Seems to me there's a big difference between 45 and 49. 45 seems like things fought to a standstill, momentum flatlined,  as food as 2014 rerun, s safe margin for the status quo, business as usual. But 49 would seem like a new momentum, a direction of travel, squeaky bum time....

I am sure i read that the Poll is trustworthy however it did not include 16-17 year old's or EU Citizens.. , so it is actually better than 49%  

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10 minutes ago, stocky said:

I am sure i read that the Poll is trustworthy however it did not include 16-17 year old's or EU Citizens.. , so it is actually better than 49%  

Probably didn't include them as it covered a number of different questions including Westmister voting intention.  However, I'd be surprised if the polling company didn't factor that into their methodology.  

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usually these guys are very London Centric. with all info ....

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41 minutes ago, stocky said:

I am sure i read that the Poll is trustworthy however it did not include 16-17 year old's or EU Citizens.. , so it is actually better than 49%  

Thanks. That's interesting.

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48 minutes ago, phart said:

Nothing is a "science" science is using the scientific method. 

You just said, "Economics is a mathematical science". 

50 minutes ago, phart said:

None of it covers my point though, thinking things like gender should take precedence over ability.

You made several points; perhaps I did not answer every single one.  

But in any case I agree with you. Gender should not take precedence over ability.

53 minutes ago, phart said:

Managed to get any of these examples you claim exist yet been 13 hours?

No. I have been doing other things for those 13 hours.  But I'll come back when I have more time, and start a new thread on it. 

 

56 minutes ago, phart said:

Also let's be real SNP will pick the economist that is saying what they want them to say anyway.

Yes, I think this fits nicely with what I was saying about economics! 👍

The fact you can pick the right person to get the answer you want, does not sound like an objective science in Feynman's sense. So I think we are agreeing. 😊

 

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30 minutes ago, exile said:

You just said, "Economics is a mathematical science". 

 

 

 

A wee bit quote mining there.

" Nothing is a "science" science is using the scientific method. The competent economists use the scientific method. " is the full sentence.

also i said " Economics is a mathematical science for the most part "

So all your competent economists use the scientific method- systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses, using mathematical models.

Where it changes is the interpretation of the data , anyone with basic understanding of maths knows quadratic equations, which can have more than one answer. That's where it strays into interpretation and out of the realm of science. I think we shouldn't pick who interprets based on gender but on competency. In fact i'd like those sort of things to be ignored completely in favour for competency.

That's the crux of my argument.

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1 hour ago, phart said:

A wee bit quote mining there.

" Nothing is a "science" science is using the scientific method. The competent economists use the scientific method. " is the full sentence.

also i said " Economics is a mathematical science for the most part "

I thought when you said "Nothing is a science" you meant one should not say "X is [not] a science" 

Anyway, we can shift economics to another thread. 

1 hour ago, phart said:

I think we shouldn't pick who interprets based on gender but on competency. In fact i'd like those sort of things to be ignored completely in favour for competency.

That's the crux of my argument.

Yes - as I said I agree that it's about ability and competence and not gender. And for another thread. 

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AUOB march in Glasgow tomorrow. Estimated over 100,000 people expected to attend and not a fuckin mention on the BBC or STV news. Hopefully will show the yoons that there is an appetite for another referendum.

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Good win for the SNP in Dundee last night. Took a council seat from Labour and re-established control of the council. :ok:

Hang on I thought SNP support was haemorrhaging and that the members were all at war with one another ? Why would the Herald and the Scotsman lie to me ......

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14 hours ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Good win for the SNP in Dundee last night. Took a council seat from Labour and re-established control of the council. :ok:

Hang on I thought SNP support was haemorrhaging and that the members were all at war with one another ? Why would the Herald and the Scotsman lie to me ......

All whilst we will soon be able to play a game of spot the Tory councillor in England.

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