phart Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 (edited) Why are Marxists going after the power of the Unions, specifically the Police Unions? I thought that's why the disbanding was done, as it was done previously in Camden New Jersey. Disbanding an entire department has happened before. In 2012, with crime rampant in Camden, N.J., the city disbanded its police department and replaced it with a new force that covered Camden County. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/07/minneapolis-police-force-george-floyd-306704 Edited June 8, 2020 by phart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Mox Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 3 hours ago, thplinth said: Antifa are radical Marxists. This is how they go about attacking the pillars of society to bring it down (their aim). Law and Order is a massive pillar. Without that functioning a lot of things will cascade into complete anarchy. Which is exactly what they want. The mayors support them which is why they are doing the insane and defunding (or even disbanding!) the police during riots. Pretty soon no one with half a brain will want to do the job anyway. It is going to kick off in the UK at the first available flash point that they can exploit. That should be fun in London if you live there. They are well funded, well organised and they are the violent arm of forces intent on weakening the US. This was never about George Floyd to them, they dont give a fuck about him beyond exploiting him to ignite race riots. It is going to become more and more obvious what they are but how much damage they do in the meantime is anyone's guess at this point. The number of fanboys on here is frightening for example. Their ideology is like societal poison. They are very dangerous and people need to wake up to them. No one is talking about removing law and order, it's about taking a new approach to Policing and community policing in particular. As per usual with you, it's all extremes and exaggeration, you'd think we're a bawhair away from Minneapolis becoming a lawless, desolate wasteland inhabited by Mad Max the way your nattering on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 1 hour ago, phart said: Why are Marxists going after the power of the Unions, specifically the Police Unions? I thought that's why the disbanding was done, as it was done previously in Camden New Jersey. Disbanding an entire department has happened before. In 2012, with crime rampant in Camden, N.J., the city disbanded its police department and replaced it with a new force that covered Camden County. https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/07/minneapolis-police-force-george-floyd-306704 Some on the far left (or who purport to be) believe that trade unions are used as a tool (no pun intended) by the employer to control and manipulate workers. Since this is antifa, though, they probably haven't thought any deeper than "the police union represents the police, and the police are the bad guys, so they must be baddies too...". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 23 minutes ago, scotlad said: Some on the far left (or who purport to be) believe that trade unions are used as a tool (no pun intended) by the employer to control and manipulate workers. Since this is antifa, though, they probably haven't thought any deeper than "the police union represents the police, and the police are the bad guys, so they must be baddies too...". The Police Union are the "baddies" though they almost always shield police who commit crimes. How deep have you read into it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotlad Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 8 minutes ago, phart said: The Police Union are the "baddies" though they almost always shield police who commit crimes. How deep have you read into it? How do you mean shield them? Do you mean they represent or advise police officers accused of committing crimes, or are you saying they're actually complicit in cover-ups? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 3 minutes ago, scotlad said: How do you mean shield them? Do you mean they represent or advise police officers accused of committing crimes, or are you saying they're actually complicit in cover-ups? Shield folk complicit in cover-ups. For the past fifty years, police unions have done their best to block policing reforms of all kinds. In the seventies, they opposed officers’ having to wear name tags. More recently, they’ve opposed the use of body cameras and have protested proposals to document racial profiling and to track excessive-force complaints. They have lobbied to keep disciplinary histories sealed. If a doctor commits malpractice, it’s a matter of public record, but, in much of the country, a police officer’s use of excessive force is not. Across the nation, unions have led the battle to limit the power of civilian-review boards, generally by arguing that civilians are in no position to judge the split-second decisions that police officers make. Earlier this year, Newark created a civilian-review board that was acclaimed as a model of oversight. The city’s police union immediately announced that it would sue to shut it down. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/09/19/why-are-police-unions-blocking-reform Help with shit like this A US police officer who was fired after shooting dead an unarmed man was temporarily rehired so he could apply for a pension, local media report. Philip Brailsford, 28, killed 26-year-old Daniel Shaver in the hallway of an Arizona hotel in early 2016. He was fired and charged with murder - but was acquitted at trial in 2017. Records show that he was briefly rehired last year so he could apply for a lifetime pension worth more than $2,500 (£2,000) a month. The move meant he could be medically retired - rather than fired - which made him eligible for the pension. "He was eligible for retirement benefits, so he applied for them," local official Chris Brady told ABC News. He added that Mr Brailsford had submitted a claim of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) in connection with the shooting. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48969432 The Mesa police department and Mesa police union both supported Brailsford, but it’s important to receive feedback from police sources who don’t have a vested interest in the case. https://www.fee.org/articles/an-ex-cop-talks-about-police-shootings/ The whole thing is so ubiquitous i'm surprised you have no knowledge of it, it's been a talking point for years and years on the subject of law enforcement reform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted June 8, 2020 Share Posted June 8, 2020 https://eu.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/06/08/george-floyd-police-union-contracts-increase-racist-killings-column/3168157001/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParisInAKilt Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Knocking fuck out of an old man for wearing a T-shirt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kumnio Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, thplinth said: Knocking fuck out of an old man for wearing a T-shirt. Its from 2011, so well before Trump. https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/cta-attack-suspect-turns-himself-in/1915839/ Edited June 9, 2020 by kumnio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
86glebestreet Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 11 minutes ago, thplinth said: Knocking fuck out of an old man for wearing a T-shirt. Pure scum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 This is short summary of the way the numbers are being used to promote a false narrative about institutionalized racism. 2 hours ago, kumnio said: Its from 2011, so well before Trump. https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/cta-attack-suspect-turns-himself-in/1915839/ Ahh right. Sorry it is being retweeted as current. Still a complete cunt though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, thplinth said: This is short summary of the way the numbers are being used to promote a false narrative about institutionalized racism. Ahh right. Sorry it is being retweeted as current. Still a complete cunt though. The paper he has referenced has had corrections which alter it's meaning. They lumped all the stats together, had to issue a retraction as they phrased a question incorrectly etc. https://www.pnas.org/content/116/32/15877 "we want to correct a sentence in our significance statement that has been quoted by others stating ‘White officers are not more likely to shoot minority civilians than non-White officers.’ This sentence refers to estimating Pr(shot|race, X). As we estimated Pr(race|shot, X), this sentence should read: ‘As the proportion of White officers in a fatal officer-involved shooting increased, a person fatally shot was not more likely to be of a racial minority.’ When you remove suicide and other extraneous factors. You find "Young unarmed nonsuicidal male victims of fatal use of force are 13 times more likely to be Black than White" "A recent PNAS article reports “no evidence of anti-Black or anti-Hispanic disparities across [fatal] shootings” by police officers (ref. 1, p. 15877). This claim is based on the results of a regression model that suggested “a person fatally shot by police was 6.67 times less likely (odds ratio [OR] = 0.15 [0.09, 0.27]) to be Black than White” (ref. 1, p. 15880). The article also claims the results “do not depend on which predictors are used” (ref. 1, p. 15881). These claims are misleading because the reported results apply only to a subset of victims and do not control for the fact that we would expect a higher number of White victims simply because the majority of US citizens are White..." "...The stark contrast between the published finding and our finding contradicts Johnson et al.’s (1) claims that their results hold across subgroups of victims. Contrary to this claim, their data are entirely consistent with the public perception that young male victims of fatal use of force are disproportionally Black. Importantly, neither the original finding nor our finding addresses the causes of racial disparities among victims of deadly use of force. Our results merely confirm other recent findings that racial disparities exist and that they are particularly large for young males (2)." https://www.pnas.org/content/117/3/1263 The difference between using youtube and peer review for your source of information. EDIT: copy of the data set for anyone wanting to check the working. https://osf.io/hm6f2/ Edited June 9, 2020 by phart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 3 hours ago, kumnio said: Its from 2011, so well before Trump. https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/cta-attack-suspect-turns-himself-in/1915839/ So I went back and checked and it was Laura Ingraham retweeting Lara Logan. Ingraham is an anchor on Fox News and Logan was the journalist who suffered serious sexual assaults by a rioting mob in that Egyptian Square a good few years ago in a very horrible incident. I guess there must be a blizzard of clips flying about at the moment as they are 'award winning' journalists. By the way I was curious what the outcome was and the guy was handed 12 months for that... probation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThistleWhistle Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 21 hours ago, phart said: Shield folk complicit in cover-ups. For the past fifty years, police unions have done their best to block policing reforms of all kinds. In the seventies, they opposed officers’ having to wear name tags. More recently, they’ve opposed the use of body cameras and have protested proposals to document racial profiling and to track excessive-force complaints. They have lobbied to keep disciplinary histories sealed. If a doctor commits malpractice, it’s a matter of public record, but, in much of the country, a police officer’s use of excessive force is not. Across the nation, unions have led the battle to limit the power of civilian-review boards, generally by arguing that civilians are in no position to judge the split-second decisions that police officers make. Earlier this year, Newark created a civilian-review board that was acclaimed as a model of oversight. The city’s police union immediately announced that it would sue to shut it down. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/09/19/why-are-police-unions-blocking-reform Help with shit like this A US police officer who was fired after shooting dead an unarmed man was temporarily rehired so he could apply for a pension, local media report. Philip Brailsford, 28, killed 26-year-old Daniel Shaver in the hallway of an Arizona hotel in early 2016. He was fired and charged with murder - but was acquitted at trial in 2017. Records show that he was briefly rehired last year so he could apply for a lifetime pension worth more than $2,500 (£2,000) a month. The move meant he could be medically retired - rather than fired - which made him eligible for the pension. "He was eligible for retirement benefits, so he applied for them," local official Chris Brady told ABC News. He added that Mr Brailsford had submitted a claim of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) in connection with the shooting. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48969432 The Mesa police department and Mesa police union both supported Brailsford, but it’s important to receive feedback from police sources who don’t have a vested interest in the case. https://www.fee.org/articles/an-ex-cop-talks-about-police-shootings/ The whole thing is so ubiquitous i'm surprised you have no knowledge of it, it's been a talking point for years and years on the subject of law enforcement reform. Did you watch John Oliver Last Week Tonight? Did a whole section on the union plus states paying over a billion dollars to make police brutality suits go away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanderark14 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 I have been reading about Skeku Bayoh today, I had no idea this happened in Fife. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/nov/16/sheku-bayoh-brother-shouldnt-have-died-like-this-inquiry-family Does anyone know more about this? This seems to be another case of excessive force rather than the drugs in his system. An inquiry has been opened up to assess whether his death was down to the police and whether his race played a part in the police actions. https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/justiceforsheku/?utm_source=backer_social&utm_campaign=justiceforsheku&utm_reference=339c027a16d4d9fa1d367a92c36f3228&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_content=post_pledge_page_flat_v1&fbclid=IwAR2hfGzu5RcTD1dnOlTFfBa_EbGAL-9VY5-PHQd65PlMwFJ_BEnBtfGb5oA All nine officers returned to the Police Station and sat together in a canteen for up to 8 hours whilst failing to give statements to investigators for some 32 days. In the hours that followed many lies were told including that he had attacked a police officer with a knife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said: Did you watch John Oliver Last Week Tonight? Did a whole section on the union plus states paying over a billion dollars to make police brutality suits go away. No mate, Will check it out. After spending years getting bawdeep into all this sort of stuff I had been trying to stay away from it, just for a break as it get's so depressing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, phart said: The difference between using youtube and peer review for your source of information. Yeah like the Lancet Study. Youtube or just using your brain would have told you that was bullshit. But seriously all you seem to do these days is try to nit pick something in an attempt to discredit the larger argument. I know you hate sophistry so I am little surprised at it. I am arguing here (these last few pages at least) that the mainstream media and many politicians are manipulating people here by painting a false narrative and deliberately inflaming racial hatred for their own purposes (and people are dying because of it). That's my point and I stand by it. I think is obvious by what gets reported and magnified and by what doesn't. Now I would just point out that if I convince people of this it would defuse things rather than inflame them. Yet this seems to irk you for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThistleWhistle Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 9 minutes ago, vanderark14 said: I have been reading about Skeku Bayoh today, I had no idea this happened in Fife. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/nov/16/sheku-bayoh-brother-shouldnt-have-died-like-this-inquiry-family Does anyone know more about this? This seems to be another case of excessive force rather than the drugs in his system. An inquiry has been opened up to assess whether his death was down to the police and whether his race played a part in the police actions. https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/justiceforsheku/?utm_source=backer_social&utm_campaign=justiceforsheku&utm_reference=339c027a16d4d9fa1d367a92c36f3228&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_content=post_pledge_page_flat_v1&fbclid=IwAR2hfGzu5RcTD1dnOlTFfBa_EbGAL-9VY5-PHQd65PlMwFJ_BEnBtfGb5oA All nine officers returned to the Police Station and sat together in a canteen for up to 8 hours whilst failing to give statements to investigators for some 32 days. In the hours that followed many lies were told including that he had attacked a police officer with a knife. I remember that at the time and was amazed it didn't turn into a massive issue - just seemed to get swept under the carpet. Saw this one as well where an asylum seeker school girl in full Muslim dress decided go for a swim in a canal despite not knowing how swim and being bullied at school: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/shukri-yahya-abdi-drown-river-refugee-manchester-bullying-a8996581.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Just now, thplinth said: Yeah like the Lancet Study. Youtube or just using your brain would have told you that was bullshit. But seriously all you seem to do these days is try to nit pick something in an attempt to discredit the larger argument. I know you hate sophistry so I am little surprised at it. I am arguing here (these last few pages at least) that the mainstream media and many politicians are manipulating people here by painting a false narrative and deliberately inflaming racial hatred for their own purposes (and people are dying because of it). That's my point and I stand by it. I think is obvious by what gets reported and magnified and by what doesn't. Now I would just point out that if I convince people of this it would defuse things rather than inflame them. Yet this seems to irk you for some reason. The lancet self corrected once it was shown the to be wrong. Let's see if Blue collar logic does... posting incorrect stats is painting a false narrative, posting decade old videos as recent events is painting a false narrative. I'm not irked at all. Establishing the validity of information presented in an argument is worthwhile I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 minute ago, phart said: The lancet self corrected once it was shown the to be wrong. Let's see if Blue collar logic does... posting incorrect stats is painting a false narrative, posting decade old videos as recent events is painting a false narrative. I'm not irked at all. Establishing the validity of information presented in an argument is worthwhile I think. Not if you are biased to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThistleWhistle Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 44 minutes ago, phart said: The paper he has referenced has had corrections which alter it's meaning. They lumped all the stats together, had to issue a retraction as they phrased a question incorrectly etc. https://www.pnas.org/content/116/32/15877 "we want to correct a sentence in our significance statement that has been quoted by others stating ‘White officers are not more likely to shoot minority civilians than non-White officers.’ This sentence refers to estimating Pr(shot|race, X). As we estimated Pr(race|shot, X), this sentence should read: ‘As the proportion of White officers in a fatal officer-involved shooting increased, a person fatally shot was not more likely to be of a racial minority.’ When you remove suicide and other extraneous factors. You find "Young unarmed nonsuicidal male victims of fatal use of force are 13 times more likely to be Black than White" "A recent PNAS article reports “no evidence of anti-Black or anti-Hispanic disparities across [fatal] shootings” by police officers (ref. 1, p. 15877). This claim is based on the results of a regression model that suggested “a person fatally shot by police was 6.67 times less likely (odds ratio [OR] = 0.15 [0.09, 0.27]) to be Black than White” (ref. 1, p. 15880). The article also claims the results “do not depend on which predictors are used” (ref. 1, p. 15881). These claims are misleading because the reported results apply only to a subset of victims and do not control for the fact that we would expect a higher number of White victims simply because the majority of US citizens are White..." "...The stark contrast between the published finding and our finding contradicts Johnson et al.’s (1) claims that their results hold across subgroups of victims. Contrary to this claim, their data are entirely consistent with the public perception that young male victims of fatal use of force are disproportionally Black. Importantly, neither the original finding nor our finding addresses the causes of racial disparities among victims of deadly use of force. Our results merely confirm other recent findings that racial disparities exist and that they are particularly large for young males (2)." https://www.pnas.org/content/117/3/1263 The difference between using youtube and peer review for your source of information. EDIT: copy of the data set for anyone wanting to check the working. https://osf.io/hm6f2/ Ratio of black men being killed by police in US is 1:1000 between 20-35 and is the, or one of the, most likely causes of death for black men in that age range annually. https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phart Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 The "narrative" is there is no racism and it;s being made up to inflame. This is backed up using a study. However the study is wrong and in fact it does show there is "racism" (racism as it being several more times likely to affect a black person than a white person) So the whole premise of there being a false narrative is undermined by the very study being used to show it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thplinth Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 minute ago, phart said: The "narrative" is there is no racism... Now a straw man! FFS phart. Anyway I have to go work for a bit and I feel this could drag on forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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