1 Mistake In 10 Games...

[Jacques Hunt]

Yep, correct. This going for third was bollocks too. We should have been aiming to dump both the Poles and the Irish. Scotland in my lifetime always go for one point here and one point there. I'm fed up of our "just do enough and no more" attitude. We are a nation of absolute pussies. Those that qualify time and again are the countries that have an element of ruthlessness about them. It's time we as a nation demanded it and not just happy with this just turning up for a party pish.

I do not think that we were aiming for third. We were poor v ROI away and got a draw which was a decent result given how we played. I genuinely do not know why we played as we did v Georgia away. We were dire. We attacked Poland as best we could within our ability. Germany have better players than us and I concede that we perhaps left Dortmund thinking a 2-1 defeat was not too bad a result against world champs. This attitude is wrong and this was confirmed when ROI got a lucky point v Germans. We do seem to switch off or lose focus for periods in games and we also lose daft goals far too often. Manager will be well aware of this and will hopefully find a way to address it. Yes we ended up in a situation where we would have been happy with third. We put ourselves in a good position to dump both ROI and Poles but blew it in Georgia. Then there was that last minute winner for Poles when we gave away a free kick unnecessarily. Did the Germans play as well in Dublin as they did at Hampden? How do we gauge this and does it matter now? We all want the same thing but in the short term we need to improve again and yes, win all home games including ingerland and look to win all away games if we can. We all know that this is unlikely and we definitely need to defend better. Much better. Manager does have a difficult job but I agree with other posters that, with McGhee gone or going, we would benefit from bringing in a defensive coach. Willie Miler, Alex Mcleish? Not that long ago we had Terry Butcher. I am really depressing myself now.

[weekevie04]

We had our share of luck along the way too. Ireland and Poland both hitting the woodwork in last year's games, deflected winners.

Also, Germany being pretty average (for world champs) and dropping points to our main rivals didn't help.

Hopefully this experience will help for the next campaign. Whilst it's harder to qualify for Russia than the Euros, our group is a better one.

[runningtings]

A defensive coach is an absolute must.

[Jacques Hunt]

A defensive coach is an absolute must.

Who do you suggest? Seriously - I am not being sarky. Mcleish?

[thplinth]

When you look through all the results in Group D the only surprises were us getting beat by Georgia and Ireland taking 4 points off Germany (and maybe also the Germans getting beat by Poland but less so). Scotland taking 4 points off Ireland was as good as we could have hoped for at the start and should have seen us finishing third after that. But then we lost to Georgia. That was the absolute killer and I knew after that we were ed. Shocking performance from the players that night, perplexing to be honest.

As for the campaign it was hugely refreshing to see us having a proper go post Levein (georgia away excluded). But overall I have been disappointed with GS's selections and tactics (just too conservative, too safe). The press conferences don't help neither.

Meh.

[Bino's]

Who do you suggest? Seriously - I am not being sarky. Mcleish?

No

[Jacques Hunt]

Alan Irvine?

[Mazda]

That's scandalous, especially when you compare it to how they train coaches in Iceland.

This article is well worth a read: how-iceland-became-the-worlds-best-pound-for-pound-soccer-team

Here's the relevant bit:

"I don't think anywhere else in the world has as many qualified coaches from UEFA A and UEFA B per player," said coach Heimir. In short, the UEFA A and B licenses are required to work in professional club and youth coaching, respectively, across Europe. The licensing structure has done a great deal to standardize the level of instruction players receive, and in general, the more qualified coaches a country has the better that country is at soccer. An official at the Icelandic Football Association told VICE Sports the country had 563 UEFA B- and 165 UEFA A-licensed coaches "at the end of 2013." That doesn't sound like much, but it's more coaches per capita than either Spain or Germany.

"Here it doesn't matter how big or small the village, they have qualified coaches, equally good coaches [as] clubs in the [icelandic] Premier League," said Heimir. "They have the same development no matter where they live. I think that's such a huge benefit for Icelandic football. It's kind of an ambition for every village to have a good coach, to have good facilities for training the kids. So every village is proud to have produced good football players."

Thanks for the link.

I hope the SFA do some proper research on the system they have.

then implement it asap

For a begining they wouldnt have the people we do at the SFA

[Mazda]

having watched the Germans at Hampden I cannot understand how Ireland managed 4 points off them.

I imagine Ireland are wondering how they manged to do well against the world champs, yet drop points against us...

Ireland historically (imo) always seeem to look a more dangerous team than us.

[ScotlandFanMuir]

I saw someone mention a complete overhaul from the SFA is the first step in 'fixing' this - I'd probably agree.

Invest in grass roots. We need to start investing in our Youth. Only then when we're producing better younger players we will be able to ACTUALLY play them in Scottish football. It's a bit of a disease in our game, we'll take Celtic for example. I'd like to know how much money they spend on their Youth set up, to then spend millions on top of that to bring in the likes of GMS, Armstrong, Ciftci, their new £4million defender etc. The dominant club (cue the sheep-appreciators) in our league and the only one regularly playing in Europe are hardly bringing through 1 young Scottish player a year through their ranks. If James Forrest is the best they can do then I can see why they bring others in, but my point is - until they start spending £4million on developing better talent than bringing in a foreign defender then I feel we'll forever be stuck in this rut.

I feel other Scottish clubs are now looking to their Youth set up and bringing more players through, instead of signing that 32 year work horse that the manager knows can 'do a job'.

There's knock on effects all over the place. We stop qualifying for European competition at club level and we've then less money in our game, lower coefficient and harder to qualify. Start investing more in the young guns again and stop selling deep fried pizzas and we might produce better players again, actually play them and actually qualify for these tournaments.

11 players playing decent fitba in the SPFL isn't enough to qualify for the Euros for me. We need at 2/3 teams playing European fitba at club level with Scottish youngsters at the heart of each side. We're a long way away from that though.

[thplinth]

That's scandalous, especially when you compare it to how they train coaches in Iceland.

This article is well worth a read: how-iceland-became-the-worlds-best-pound-for-pound-soccer-team

Here's the relevant bit:

"I don't think anywhere else in the world has as many qualified coaches from UEFA A and UEFA B per player," said coach Heimir. In short, the UEFA A and B licenses are required to work in professional club and youth coaching, respectively, across Europe. The licensing structure has done a great deal to standardize the level of instruction players receive, and in general, the more qualified coaches a country has the better that country is at soccer. An official at the Icelandic Football Association told VICE Sports the country had 563 UEFA B- and 165 UEFA A-licensed coaches "at the end of 2013." That doesn't sound like much, but it's more coaches per capita than either Spain or Germany.

"Here it doesn't matter how big or small the village, they have qualified coaches, equally good coaches [as] clubs in the [icelandic] Premier League," said Heimir. "They have the same development no matter where they live. I think that's such a huge benefit for Icelandic football. It's kind of an ambition for every village to have a good coach, to have good facilities for training the kids. So every village is proud to have produced good football players."

That is astonishing what Iceland have achieved given their tiny tiny population. Truly amazing results.

But equally depressing because I know there is no chance at all the SFA will do a damn thing. Even if we started today to implement what they did it would still take 10 years or so for the players to start feeding through. Instead we will be having this exact same discussion in 10years and the same kunts running the SFA today will all likely still be there.

[RenfrewBlue]

The more I think about it, having watched the Germans at Hampden I cannot understand how Ireland managed 4 points off them. They never looked like they were struggling against us at any point even when we managed to get the goals back. Those 4 points have killed us as much that nonsense in Georgia.

The key word is defence. Ireland have a good one, we don't. Pretty simple really.

[Bino's]

That is astonishing what Iceland have achieved given their tiny tiny population. Truly amazing results.

But equally depressing because I know there is no chance at all the SFA will do a damn thing. Even if we started today to implement what they did it would still take 10 years or so for the players to start feeding through. Instead we will be having this exact same discussion in 10years and the same kunts running the SFA today will all likely still be there.

the fans need to make it happen

its the only way

[Charlie Endell]

And that will bring us back to Do

[runningtings]

Who do you suggest? Seriously - I am not being sarky. Mcleish?

Not someone who is a first team coach, someone who is an expert on defending.

Can we not bring in some Italian defensive coach or similar? Or even Willie Miller?

No idea what he is like as a coach, but these guys are out there.

[girvanTA]

Colin hendry, david weir, john Kennedy...anyone that knows what its like to win

[shaggycoo]

It wasn't just one mistake though was it? It was a whole lot of mistakes that compounded to leave us where we finished.

Everyone keeps focusing on the Georgia game, that for me is not the real issue here. The issue is that we led twice against Poland going into the last 15m in Warsaw and into injury time at Hampden. We collected 2 points from those games, dropping 4 because of an inability to defend a lead.

Had we held on in both those games, we would be going to France.

Had we won in Georgia we would be in the playoffs, unseeded and playing a team that would likely beat us over 2 legs.

Exactly. The Georgia game was a shambles but we never looked like taking 3 points from that one, but dropping 4 points to the Poles when leading cost us automatic qualification and should of got something off the Germans.

[fanatyk]

Georgia was an absolute killer of Scotland and that`s beyond doubt.

But also both teams that was fighting for automatic qualification and finished below 2nd place- Ireland and Scotland lost games to the teams from the bottom 3 of the table, vs. Scotland and Georgia respectively. Top two teams managed not to lose to the teams from bottom 3 and that was the key to success also.

[Langtonian]

I saw someone mention a complete overhaul from the SFA is the first step in 'fixing' this - I'd probably agree.

Invest in grass roots. We need to start investing in our Youth. Only then when we're producing better younger players we will be able to ACTUALLY play them in Scottish football. It's a bit of a disease in our game, we'll take Celtic for example. I'd like to know how much money they spend on their Youth set up, to then spend millions on top of that to bring in the likes of GMS, Armstrong, Ciftci, their new £4million defender etc. The dominant club (cue the sheep-appreciators) in our league and the only one regularly playing in Europe are hardly bringing through 1 young Scottish player a year through their ranks. If James Forrest is the best they can do then I can see why they bring others in, but my point is - until they start spending £4million on developing better talent than bringing in a foreign defender then I feel we'll forever be stuck in this rut.

I feel other Scottish clubs are now looking to their Youth set up and bringing more players through, instead of signing that 32 year work horse that the manager knows can 'do a job'.

There's knock on effects all over the place. We stop qualifying for European competition at club level and we've then less money in our game, lower coefficient and harder to qualify. Start investing more in the young guns again and stop selling deep fried pizzas and we might produce better players again, actually play them and actually qualify for these tournaments.

11 players playing decent fitba in the SPFL isn't enough to qualify for the Euros for me. We need at 2/3 teams playing European fitba at club level with Scottish youngsters at the heart of each side. We're a long way away from that though.

Did they not spend more putting a roof over lennoxtown than they did/ do on there youth set up

[McVinceSCT]

I think the draw in Reland wasn't too bad, especially as we won in Glasgow so we would have beaten them if we went on the same number of points at the end of the qualifs.

I must admit that i would have been happy with a draw in Georgia before the game. But i would have started with 2 strikers to try to win the game.

Except this game, i don't think we could have done much better.

Small margins. I remember a golden opportunity when we were 1-1 in Germany. Morsson or D. Fletcher missed it. Ireland's 98th minute goals in Germany and against Poland killed us. As did their lucky victory on Thursday.

[Bino's]

I think the draw in Reland wasn't too bad, especially as we won in Glasgow so we would have beaten them if we went on the same number of points at the end of the qualifs.

I must admit that i would have been happy with a draw in Georgia before the game. But i would have started with 2 strikers to try to win the game.

Except this game, i don't think we could have done much better.

Small margins. I remember a golden opportunity when we were 1-1 in Germany. Morsson or D. Fletcher missed it. Ireland's 98th minute goals in Germany and against Poland killed us. As did their lucky victory on Thursday.

it was steven fletcher, point blank header straight at the keeper, same v Poland at home

either one of those go in, different story

Keogh had the same for Ireland the other night in Poland

you have to take these chances if you're a striker

[Marky]

I am far from a apologist for failure, but some folk on this thread are utterly deluded.

It's one thing to suggest that failing to beat Ireland into a play off spot is a poor return, but completely another to suggest that failing to beat Germany or Poland to 1st or 2nd is "abject failure".

Germany speak for themselves, but even Poland ffs! Get a grip. For my entire life Poland have been "better" than Scotland. Even during Scotland's best period in the 70s and early 80s, Poland were one of the best teams in the world. The bottom line is that they always have been better than us and I expect they always will be. They are a proud footballing nation with a huge population and they have consistently achieved way above us in world football.

I think it's also wrong to say the "tough draw" argument doesn't hold water. This was a tough draw by anyone's standards. I know it's purely hypothetical but I'm convinced that if we had been drawn in groups such as at least 3 of the others (Wales & NI groups included) and played the way we have over the last 18 months, we'd have qualified.

I think the seeding criteria needs to be reviewed. I think it needs to be based on performance over of much longer period of time. The last few years are littered with teams who punched above their weight for a very short period of time. Teams like Latvia, Slovenia, Bosnia, Greece and now the likes of Wales, NI and Iceland. I could probably come up with more if I thought about it. They get artificially boosted up the seeding pots and this creates complete mismatches in the standard from group to group. If seeding was derived from performances over say the last 10 years, this would ensure a more even split across the qualifying groups.

[Charlie Endell]

I am far from a apologist for failure, but some folk on this thread are utterly deluded.

It's one thing to suggest that failing to beat Ireland into a play off spot is a poor return, but completely another to suggest that failing to beat Germany or Poland to 1st or 2nd is "abject failure".

Germany speak for themselves, but even Poland ffs! Get a grip. For my entire life Poland have been "better" than Scotland. Even during Scotland's best period in the 70s and early 80s, Poland were one of the best teams in the world. The bottom line is that they always have been better than us and I expect they always will be. They are a proud footballing nation with a huge population and they have consistently achieved way above us in world football.

I think it's also wrong to say the "tough draw" argument doesn't hold water. This was a tough draw by anyone's standards. I know it's purely hypothetical but I'm convinced that if we had been drawn in groups such as at least 3 of the others (Wales & NI groups included) and played the way we have over the last 18 months, we'd have qualified.

I think the seeding criteria needs to be reviewed. I think it needs to be based on performance over of much longer period of time. The last few years are littered with teams who punched above their weight for a very short period of time. Teams like Latvia, Slovenia, Bosnia, Greece and now the likes of Wales, NI and Iceland. I could probably come up with more if I thought about it. They get artificially boosted up the seeding pots and this creates complete mismatches in the standard from group to group. If seeding was derived from performances over say the last 10 years, this would ensure a more even split across the qualifying groups.

I don't think anyone has said that. Failure to reach even the play-off spot was. Edited October 14, 2015 by Charlie Endell

[Marky]

I don't think anyone has said that. Failure to reach even the play-off spot was.

Well the term abject failure has definitely been used. So what is abject failure then? Failing to beat Ireland into 3rd place? Even that is utter nonsense. Who the feck do we think we are? Whether we like it or not Ireland and ourselves are in the same ballpark and going by recent qualifying success that statement flatters us. I'm on the record as saying that in this campaign, man for man, I think we had a better team than Ireland. But they had an effectiveness that we didn't. So they beat us to 3rd. How does that compute to abject failure? Two similar standard teams slugging it out for the scraps and we lost out.

Disappointing? Yes, very. Abject failure? Never.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Marky

[scotlad]

I am far from a apologist for failure, but some folk on this thread are utterly deluded.

It's one thing to suggest that failing to beat Ireland into a play off spot is a poor return, but completely another to suggest that failing to beat Germany or Poland to 1st or 2nd is "abject failure".

Germany speak for themselves, but even Poland ffs! Get a grip. For my entire life Poland have been "better" than Scotland. Even during Scotland's best period in the 70s and early 80s, Poland were one of the best teams in the world. The bottom line is that they always have been better than us and I expect they always will be. They are a proud footballing nation with a huge population and they have consistently achieved way above us in world football.

I think it's also wrong to say the "tough draw" argument doesn't hold water. This was a tough draw by anyone's standards. I know it's purely hypothetical but I'm convinced that if we had been drawn in groups such as at least 3 of the others (Wales & NI groups included) and played the way we have over the last 18 months, we'd have qualified.

I think the seeding criteria needs to be reviewed. I think it needs to be based on performance over of much longer period of time. The last few years are littered with teams who punched above their weight for a very short period of time. Teams like Latvia, Slovenia, Bosnia, Greece and now the likes of Wales, NI and Iceland. I could probably come up with more if I thought about it. They get artificially boosted up the seeding pots and this creates complete mismatches in the standard from group to group. If seeding was derived from performances over say the last 10 years, this would ensure a more even split across the qualifying groups.

Sorry if this sounds like I am splitting hairs, but Poland didn't qualify for a major tournament for 16 years before they finally made it to the WC in 2002. You could argue that it was harder to qualify for tournaments back then - the European Championship finals of 1988 and 1992 only consisted of 8 teams - but even so, the Poles had a lengthy spell in the wilderness. I would certainly have expected Scotland to beat them more often than during that period.

As far as Scotland are concerned, there's nae shame in drawing in Poland and Ireland; in isolation and even in the context of the group those are very respectable results. But if you are serious about qualifying rule number one has to be to win your home games. We used to have a fantastic record at home, even up until about 10 years ago, but since then we have become a bit of soft touch.