Oops, Putin Wis Right All Along...

[neil r]

As was Colonel Trautman when he said much the same to the dastardly Colonel Zaysen in Rambo III.

"You can't defeat a people like that. We tried; we already had our Vietnam! Now you're gonna have yours ..."

Edited October 7, 2015 by neil r

[Armchair Bob]

The Taliban weren't in power till 1996 7 years after the end of the Soviet-Afghan war.

Aye well, mujahadeen then...

[McDange]

The West will hate for it to be Russia that stepped up and took out ISIS so will seek to use their propaganda tools to discredit them.

Think of all the "We won The War" pish we subjected to during the referendum when it was the Soviet Union that took Berlin and ultimately brought on the German surrender.

Unleashing Hell

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nBPDqGt5rKw

[andymac]

Think of all the "We won The War" pish we subjected to during the referendum when it was the Soviet Union that took Berlin and ultimately brought on the German surrender.

Do you really believe that?

[McDange]

Do you really believe that?

Yes. It's well documented and seen as the decisive piece of action that ended the war in Europe. Referred to the Battle of Berlin most of the time.

[redstevie007]

Yes. It's well documented and seen as the decisive piece of action that ended the war in Europe. Referred to the Battle of Berlin most of the time.

The war turned with the breaking of the Luftwaffe in 1940-41. Then there were the Normandy landings and success in North Africa. The Russians played a huge part at Stalingrad and Kursk to name just two decisive battles, but then there was the US entering the war and don't forget if Germany hadn't attacked the Soviet Union in the first place the full might of the Wermacht would have destroyed Europe. Anyway, we digress

Edited October 7, 2015 by redstevie007

[andymac]

Yes. It's well documented and seen as the decisive piece of action that ended the war in Europe. Referred to the Battle of Berlin most of the time.

Battle of Berlin was hardly a decisive action that ended the war in Europe just the last desperate stand of an evil regime.

The war turned with the breaking of the Luftwaffe in 1940-41. Then there were the Normandy landings and success in North Africa. The Russians played a huge part at Stalingrad and Kursk to name just two decisive battles, but then there was the US entering the war and don't forget if Germany hadn't attacked the Soviet Union in the first place the full might of the Wermacht and Luftwaffe would have destroyed Europe. Anyway, we digress

All true. Also doubtful if Hitler ever could have won but the significant events also include Hitler declaring war on the USA, the USA agreeing that the war in Europe was the priority. As soon as the USA's industrial might was committed it was just a matter of time.

[Bristolhibby]

I think the original comment just meant we "the West" certainly did and still do to a certain extent, under value Russia's sacrifice and importance in grinding the Germans down on the Eastern Front, enabling victory in the end.

J

[Orraloon]

FFS folks everybody knows Churchill won the war pretty much single handedly.

Let's get back to Putin and ISIS? This is an interesting thread. Please don't divert it, by fighting WW2 all over again.

[McDange]

I think the original comment just meant we "the West" certainly did and still do to a certain extent, under value Russia's sacrifice and importance in grinding the Germans down on the Eastern Front, enabling victory in the end.

J

Exactamundo.

[phart]

The Americans moaning about Putin supporting Assad. Yeah he is propping Assad up in the area in the hope it returns to it's previous imperfect but ultimately more preferable point before everyone started putting their finger into the Syrian Pie.

This is a joint Us-Israeli-UK-France (Same as Libya) mission to remove Assad, the Russians stepped in and stopped an invasion by persuading Assad to get rid of his chemical weapons a couple of years ago. Now they've stepped in and are in the process of returning the country to him. Stopping the continual deliberate "balkinisation" of Arab states in the Middle-East.

Pipelines pay a major part in both Saudi/Turkey/Israeli economy as well.

Just before the Civil War "In July 2011 Iran, Iraq and Syria said they planned to sign a contract potentially worth around $6bn to construct a pipeline running from South Pars towards Europe, via these countries and Lebanon and then under the Mediterranean to a European country..." "...construction plans were delayed by the Syrian Civil War..."

"...The pipeline would be a competitor to the Nabucco pipeline from Azerbaijan to Europe.^[1] It is also an alternative to the Qatar-Turkey pipeline which had been proposed by Qatar"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq-Syria_pipeline

Which countries are supplying arms and or opening their borders so folk can get into Syria?

[Replay]

If you haven't seen it, this is worth a watch;

https://youtu.be/Ykb5sxTl1Rw

[phart]

If you haven't seen it, this is worth a watch;

https://youtu.be/Ykb5sxTl1Rw

It's crazy.

[thplinth]

How about Anna Politkovsya than?

Putin's work or a present for him?

Those are not the only two choices.

..................

Russians have been extremely impressive since they started assisting the Syrians.

The US carrier presence in the Gulf has been ordered out for the first time in 7(?) years I read.

Pentagon has been surprised that Russia has developed a long range cruise missile. Previously it was thought only the US tomahawk could do that but more interestingly they are launching it from small warships where the US version can only be fired from big ships. Bit a game changer I am reading.

And that is before you get to some of the amazing flying being done by Russian helicopter gunships. Syrian army retaking a lot of ground and ISIS no longer able to sell oil.

They have set up an effective no fly zone as well.

Very impressive. And I like Putin every interview I have watched he has come across as honest, diplomatic but straight talking. I'd take him as UK leader any day.

[phart]

Either the UK and US have not been trying to get rid of ISIS for the last year or we have a massive technological and skills gap with the Russians.

It's a huge coup for the russians Putin is going in and in a week has done more to limit ISIS activity than the entire colation of the willing. Other countries are turning to them for protection from ISIS as they are much more effective.

I expect the Russians might have some "trouble" at home incoming though.

[hunchy]

Either the UK and US have not been trying to get rid of ISIS for the last year or we have a massive technological and skills gap with the Russians.

It's a huge coup for the russians Putin is going in and in a week has done more to limit ISIS activity than the entire colation of the willing. Other countries are turning to them for protection from ISIS as they are much more effective.

I expect the Russians might have some "trouble" at home incoming though.

Think it's been a case of the west deliberately not being effective against Isis. There whole mantra seems to be about causing chaos. Add to that things like the unconfirmed reports of Isis wonder being treated in Israel then t does make me wonder

[phart]

Not unconfirmed reports, Israel have been identified by the UN's own report (i put it here somewhere) as passing off unidentified objects, providing medical assistance to their commanders etc.

No one is mentioning the mass starvation of Yemen atm either weirdly.

[thplinth]

Given the horrific atrocities committed by Daesh / ISIS even if we are supporting them only 10% (whatever 10% means) then what does it say about us. Eating lungs, burning people alive, burying them alive (you want to see the video folks?)

How does it feel to wake up to the realization that we are not the good guys but the bad guys.

If we went to war with Russia I would go to Russia and enlist. I cant believe I just typed that but it is true.

[Guest]

How does it feel to wake up to the realization that we are not the good guys but the bad guys

This is the crux of it. Along with the US and the rest of its 'allies' the UK represents part of the greatest threat to world stability and any hopes of wider peace.

[thplinth]

This is the crux of it. Along with the US and the rest of its 'allies' the UK represents part of the greatest threat to world stability and any hopes of wider peace.

You only have to seek the answer to two questions.

1. How many military bases outside of their own countries do they each have (then look at a map of where they are)?

2. How much do they spend on 'defence' relative to each other (not just this year but over the last 20 years).

Are people so stupid they cannot think and see the reality of it? Look at the casual attitude to enormous human suffering. The indifference to millions of refugees turning up in Europe. Are these our friends?

[hunchy]

Not unconfirmed reports, Israel have been identified by the UN's own report (i put it here somewhere) as passing off unidentified objects, providing medical assistance to their commanders etc.

No one is mentioning the mass starvation of Yemen atm either weirdly.

Sorry part missed that report. I'd heard it else where hence why I said unconfirmed as I couldn't remember the source

[Guest]

Not unconfirmed reports, Israel have been identified by the UN's own report (i put it here somewhere) as passing off unidentified objects, providing medical assistance to their commanders etc.

No one is mentioning the mass starvation of Yemen atm either weirdly.

'Oxfam said the number of hungry people had risen by 2.3 million to 12.9 million since March, when a Saudi-led coalition backing Hadi began bombarding the Houthis and imposed a blockade in a bid to cut off arms supplies.'

Source:http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0Q226B20150728

There's virtually half of the entire population at risk of starving to death. Because the 'untouchable Saudi's' are involved, you know the same corrupt, rotten to the core, ruthless regime so admired by the US and UK there is no official condemnation (Mr Corbyn has, however) and minimal reporting. It's beyond obscene.

"WHILE the crisis in Syria continues to garner front-page headlines and ample television coverage, the media has largely turned a blind eye to the other travesty unfolding in the Middle East:

Yemen has turned into a humanitarian disaster, where thousands of bombs are being dropped, 1.5 million people are displaced and more than 90% of the population is in need of assistance. The major difference? In Yemen, the US is one of the primary causes of the problem.

The United States and the United Kingdom are actively aiding and abetting Saudi Arabia while the country indiscriminately kills thousands of civilians in Yemen in what amounts to war crimes by almost anyones definition.

The two western powers, who often purport to care about democracy and human rights, are also helping the Saudi monarchy one of the most repressive regimes on the planet cover up those crimes at the UN.

These actions are abhorrent, and its shameful the brewing scandal has hardly received any attention from the US political establishment or television news.

The New York Times, the rare exception to the giant shrug much of the American media has given this critical subject, recently published a harrowing front-page story on the rash of indiscriminate bombing conducted in response to Houthi rebels who have attacked the sitting government that has been killing scores of civilians with direct help from the US.

That report came before the latest and deadliest attack on civilians yet: last week, a Saudi strike killed at least 130 innocent people at a wedding, mostly women and children. Over 500 children have been killed since the start of the strikes.

It would be hard for the US to give more assistance to Saudi Arabia as they commit these atrocities without actually dropping the bombs themselves: the Saudis are using cluster munitions (banned by treaty in the vast majority of countries around the world) supplied to them by United States defense contractors.

Theyre dropping those bombs using American-made fighter jets. The US military, far from being a neutral observer, is actively providing the Saudis with intelligence and logistical assistance for their air strikes. And the US is finalizing a deal to give even more weapons to the Saudis. The Obama administration has already sold them more than $90bn of military weapons over the past five years.

As of Wednesday, the US and UK also successfully prevented the UN from conducting an independent investigation into the potential war crimes committed by Saudi Arabia. Instead, Saudi Arabia will be given license to investigate themselves. Human rights groups immediately castigated the decision.

It turns out that the UK and US also made another secret deal with the Saudi monarchy years ago, according to diplomatic cables published by Wikileaks. In an exchange of votes, the UK and US plotted to get Saudi Arabia the top spot on the UN human rights council, which was just announced last month - also to loud condemnations around the world. (The same week, the country finalized plans to behead and crucify the son of a prominent government critic, whose only crime was attending an anti-government protest when he was 17 years old.)

The Times also reported on the results of Saudi Arabias actions in Yemen for the US: Rather than turning more Yemenis against the Houthis, though, the strikes are crystallizing anger in parts of the country against Saudi Arabia and its partners, including the United States. So were likely creating a new generation of terrorists, just as the USs past drone strikes in Yemen have done. And for what?

Even the US military cant explain why theyre supporting this war so closely. There is no military or national security objective (besides keeping the Saudi Arabian government happy and the coffers of US weapons makers flush). As the Council on Foreign Relationss Micah Zenko writes in his excellent and depressing analysis of the unfolding tragedy:

Rather, they call upon all parties in the conflict to halt their fighting, failing to mention that the United States military is one of the parties by providing material support, without which [saudi Arabia and its military coalition] would not be able sustain airstrikes over Yemen for any period of time.

Unfortunately, hardly anyone inside the US government seems to care. The Intercepts Lee Fang went to Washington DC to try to ask members of Congress about the killings. Many ignored him, or if they did talk refused to take on Saudi Arabia directly.

John McCain even denied that Saudi Arabia had killed civilians at all and blamed the Houthis for any deaths that may have occurred. He apparently was not aware UN officials have made clear that the vast majority of civilian deaths were the fault of the Saudi airstrikes, not the Houthis. (It should go without saying that none of this excuses any atrocities committed by the Houthis, which are horrific in their own right.)

So as the US media and politicians become more and more outraged at the senseless carnage in Syria over the next few weeks, as they well should, remember what they are blatantly ignoring: the US-backed travesty in Yemen.

Source: The Guardian"

I suppose there's some evidence of a moral conscience in a least a couple of journos bothering to cover this. Pathetic.

[phart]

Yeah made this thread as far back as March, what can one do though really. Almost wish i wasn't aware of so much shit.

http://tartanarmyboard.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=3824

[phart]

I've read unconfirmed reports that aircraft are being used that the Saudi's shouldn't have. Meaning they've been sold it by the Americans or Israeli/US jets in Saudi colours are being used.

[Clyde1998]

I've read unconfirmed reports that aircraft are being used that the Saudi's shouldn't have. Meaning they've been sold it by the Americans or Israeli/US jets in Saudi colours are being used.

Probably the former, knowing the Americans.