Only Me?

[Gaz]

hello Phil and welcome to the board my first act is to put you on ignore ....troll somewhere else...jog on, not expending energy on Nos at this stage

Edited September 6, 2014 by Gaz

[EddardStark]

hello Phil and welcome to the board my first act is to put you on ignore ....troll somewhere else...jog on, not expending energy on Nos at this stage

wow.... you must have most of the board on ignore if you are using Phil as the benchmark.

[Gaz]

people coming on here with 5 posts, 2 weeks before the referendum ain't discussing they are trolling nothing more

Edited September 6, 2014 by Gaz

[Wine bibber]

Certainly, basically I hate nationalism. I hate all the 'them' and 'us' stuff that this referendum has generated. I have friends from all over the UK and just hate the thought of us cutting ourselves off from the rest of Britain. I have always seen the home countries as like four brothers, all with distinct personalities, but with far more in common than differences. We get on each other's nerves, have fierce rivalries, make fun of each other, but, at the end of the day, we would stick up for each other if any of us were threatened. Sad that people want to throw that away. In addition, I don't believe a single word Alex Salmon and Nichola Sturgeon say. I truly believe they are more interested in Scotland becoming independent than Scotland being independent. As Salmond's biographer said, 'It's all about winning with Alex'. They will promise anything to get a Yes vote and have not demonstrated that they have a clear idea of how an independent Scotland would work in practice. It could genuinely be disastrous, and people need to think very carefully before they sign up for such an ill-thought through proposition. And no, I don't believe the statements coming out from the No campaign either but then I don't have to - I have lived in the union for nearly 50 years. I know what it's like. Is rule from Westminster perfect? Absolutely not. There are no end of ways we could improve things but I would rather see us attempt that than go down the independent route.

Five words.I don't need to read any further.By admitting to hating everyone in every country in the world you either don't understand what nationalism is or you don't realize there are other countries outside Scotland in the world.

We are all Jock Tamsons bairns right enough ,but we live in 200 different countries around the world.Its fair to say we are all Nationalists in the world(who advocate political independence for a particular country).You could travel the length and breadth of the globe for years and never encounter another human being who isn't a nationalist.Imagine trying to convince someone in a particular country they should give their wages to their opposite number in another country and let them decide how its spent.They would send you to the local asylum and rightly so. But incredibly that's what you have in your own country right now and that's what you want me and others to continue to do .

If there is one thing in the world that 99% of people would agree on it is nationalism.You are a nationalist of course,but if you don't consider yourself to be one what exactly do you consider yourself to be ?

[ParisInAKilt]

I hate nationalism so I'm voting no to preserve the British state . . .

[thorbotnic]

Five words.I don't need to read any further.By admitting to hating everyone in every country in the world you either don't understand what nationalism is or you don't realize there are other countries outside Scotland in the world.

We are all Jock Tamsons bairns right enough ,but we live in 200 different countries around the world.Its fair to say we are all Nationalists in the world(who advocate political independence for a particular country).You could travel the length and breadth of the globe for years and never encounter another human being who isn't a nationalist.Imagine trying to convince someone in a particular country they should give their wages to their opposite number in another country and let them decide how its spent.They would send you to the local asylum and rightly so. But incredibly that's what you have in your own country right now and that's what you want me and others to continue to do .

If there is one thing in the world that 99% of people would agree on it is nationalism.You are a nationalist of course,but if you don't consider yourself to be one what exactly do you consider yourself to be ?

Anti-nationalism is at the heart of Marxist ideology. No true Marxist would be a nationalist.

Just an example.

[Scunnered]

Anti-nationalism is at the heart of Marxist ideology. No true Marxist would be a nationalist.

Just an example.

So I keep hearing I much prefer Trotsky.

[phil]

Yes folks, I am still here. Thanks for all the comments on my thread. Special thanks to those who have labelled me a 'troll'. Ashamed to admit it, but as I'm getting on a bit, I'm not that savvy with all the tech speak and I didn't actually know what this word meant! So I looked it up and learned something! Cheers for that; I'll add it to the 'traitor' and 'Quisling' I have been called to my face this month already by my charming, broad minded compatriots. No worries though, I'm big enough and ugly enough to take it all on my grey stubbly chin. However, can't forgive the person who called me a 'journo', that's going too far.

Anyway, to answer a few points raised: no I am no more a British nationalist than I am a Scottish one. On the whole national identity thing I agree with Billy Connolly who said in an interview with the BBC that he doesn't buy the whole 'them' and 'us' thing either. Specifically he said that with his background he has far more in common with a welder in Newcastle than an agricultural worker in the Highlands. We're all a big mixture of different identities and throughout the UK we have so much more in common than we have differences that to cleave off one nation is patently absurd. Ther is no 'cultural chasm' that would justify that. We speak the same language, have the same religions, watch the same crap telly, eat the same crap food, laugh at the same jokes etc.

I'm not into the 'Wha's like us?' stuff at all. Scotland is a great place, and so is England, Ireland and Wales. And I don't believe for a minute that we are all the victims of the cruel and wicked English, stealing our oil, holding us back, killing our first born. The figures don't support the assertion that Scotland is getting ripped off by the rest of the UK but even if they did that still wouldn't be an argument for smashing up the union, which has worked pretty well for 300 years - even the SNP leaders constantly refer to how prosperous Scotland is now! What it would be is an argument for changing things so Scotland got a fairer share.

On the question of sovereignty: the claim that we hear again and again that 'Scotland never gets the governments it votes for' requires much further scrutiny. To claim that Scottish MPs have no influence at Westminster is nonsense. In a finely balanced parliament we have quite a lot. And while the coalition may not be reflective of Scottish voters the three, that's three!, preceeding Labour governments absolutely were. And believe it or not, quite a significant percentage of Scots actually voted for Mrs Thatcher, at least in 79 and 83. In any case this is a totally disingenuous argument from the Nats, who were voted in by a little more than 30 percent of the electorate. So we have a Scottish government that the majority of Scots didn't vote for now! The majority of Scots didn't even vote to hold this referendum. Look up the figures yourselves. And on top of all this we have our own parliament now, with significant powers and more to come.

Now I have to say a wee word about Mr Salmond. I know all this is about more than personalities but he is quite important in all this. I actually met the guy in France 98, can't remember if it was Bordeux or St Etienne but he dropped in to grab a bit of the glory, draped himself in a Saltire, got his picture taken for the papers and TV and then nicked off again. General opinion at the time was that he was just a rank opportunist but I gave him the benefit of the doubt. However, having studied him on the campaign trail I have come to the conclusion that he is not only vain, smug and unbearably pompous 'The sovereign will of the Scottish people!' etc, but he also totally devious, unscrupulous, and dangerous. It turns my stomach to hear him and his sidekick Sturgeon making their impassioned speeches about social justice, welfare, poverty, care for the elderly etc in what is a naked and cynical attempt to cloak themselves in the garb of the Labour party and seduce that party's disaffected members. The SNP has never been a truly socialist party and in their three years in office they have done absolutely hee haw to redistribute wealth. In fact, they are even proposing a three percent cut in corporate tax to make the rich even richer. As I said before, he will say and promise anything to get crosses in Yes box. In that last, messy debate at the Kelvinhall, at one point he tried to make out that Alastair Darling had made a major concession on the currency issue by saying Scotland could use the pound. In fact, as he well knew, Darling had conceded nothing at all, he had never denied it was technically possible to do so. But big Alex tried to fool the viewers. It was an outrageous lie. Don't be fooled!

Point 2 - the economy. Now this really, really matters folks. We have no deal on the currency. Alex Salmond, in all his arrogance, believes the leaders of the three main UK parties are bluffing and will allow an independent Scotland to use the pound. Who knows? He may be right, but even if he is does he really think any deal he manages to get from the Bank of England will be advantageous to Scotland? He thinks he's going to trot down to the Bank of England and they will beg us to keep the pound. My guess is they will have him on toast. He is completely out of his depth. An independent currency will be hugely expensive to set up. The international bankers may or may not lend Scotland money but since we would have no financial track record more recent than the Darian expedition what kind of deal are we going to get from them? Ditto the EU, you may not like it but access to the single market is extremely valuable. We may get in, but then again we may not - big hitters like Spain would be loath to admit us and encourage their own secessionists, but even if we do it could be a long drawn out process during which we would be out in the cold, losing markets and therefore jobs, haemorraging money all the while. England will no doubt be very welcoming for any successful business or wealthy entrepreneurs who don't fancy taking their chances in Alex's nirvana and there would almost certainly be a flight of capital as people with any cash or assets would rush to stash them elsewhere. I'm not scaremongering folks - it is genuinely scarey! Everyone wants a better fairer society but if the country is bankrupt you're not going to get it. There is a real chance of that happening.

Anyway, I've said my piece. Slag me off all you like - couldn't really give a rat's fanny to be honest, but at least take a minute and think this thing through properly. I have no problem with the majority of Yes voters, I think they are well meaning and decent people in the main who genuinely want to build fairer and more equitable Scotland. But I think they are wrong in how they think that's best achieved, and far too many people seem to be wandering around in a kind of Braveheart inspired trance that they need to snap out of quickly. This is too important.

[ParisInAKilt]

Fair enough. Didn't need the Braveheart comment though or the patronising "think this thing through properly" that's all a lot of people on here and around Scotland have done.

A 'trance'? More like the opposite, people in Scotland are engaging in politics for the first time ever or in a very long time.

For a lot of people it's not been an easy process to go from no - undecided - yes but a rewarding natural one.

Edited September 6, 2014 by ParisInAKilt

[Wine bibber]

Anti-nationalism is at the heart of Marxist ideology. No true Marxist would be a nationalist.

Just an example.

Good point.They would be promoting" internationalism" to oust what has become the best ,most popular and recognized collective form of existence for human beings on this planet.Indeed they would have to use the only available political mechanisms available to them from inside their respective existing countries of residence.A near impossible task considering the increasing number of nations and nationalists in the world.

At this point in time in the 21st century we have decided the benefits of living in countries (with at least a measure of democracy)who trade on a national/ international basis is in theory the best way to live our lives.History is fluid ,but it is hard to visualize the type of international equal living as the norm seen in our science fiction literature.This is why Scotland must have the full powers of a normal country/state

[mariokempes56]

Phil, If you dont give a rats ... why bother posting at all ?

[EddardStark]

Fair enough. Didn't need the Braveheart comment though or the patronising "think this thing through properly" that's all a lot of people on here and around Scotland have done.

A 'trance'? More like the opposite, people in Scotland are engaging in politics for the first time ever or in a very long time.

For a lot of people it's not been an easy process to go from no - undecided - yes but a rewarding natural one.

people who have gone from no to yes gave probably not given the debate a second thought. Family and peer pressure are the key drivers. Not tk mention the the impact of a very Smart Yes campaign on changing hears(not minds)

[EddardStark]

Fair enough. Didn't need the Braveheart comment though or the patronising "think this thing through properly" that's all a lot of people on here and around Scotland have done.

A 'trance'? More like the opposite, people in Scotland are engaging in politics for the first time ever or in a very long time.

For a lot of people it's not been an easy process to go from no - undecided - yes but a rewarding natural one.

people who have gone from no to yes have probably not given the debate a second thought. Family and peer pressure are the key drivers. Not forgetting to mention the the impact of a very Smart Yes campaign on changing hearts(not minds) Edited September 6, 2014 by EddardStark

[scoobydoo]

What the is the point of supporting a national football team if you are not a nationalist of sorts, be it scottish german or sierra leone.

phil, you are a fud.

[scoobydoo]

What the is the point of supporting a national football team if you are not a nationalist of sorts, be it scottish german or sierra leone.

phil, you are a fud.

[brant grebner]

Not aware of any Geordie welders with a net worth of over $20 million, a highland cottage holiday home and a house in Malta, and a film and stand up career.

Connolly's "man of the people" schtick wore thin a long time ago, and for all his claims of solidarity with manual labourers in working class hotspots he's got more in common with Ricky Gervais and Eddie Izzard than with a Scouse bricklayer or a shopping trolley attendant from Bristol.

[Alt-Del]

Anti-nationalism is at the heart of Marxist ideology. No true Marxist would be a nationalist.

Just an example.

That's not quite right... Both Marx and Lenin supported anti-colonial nationalist movements, seeing them as a necessary part of the struggle. They opposed bourgeois nationalism, which worked against proletarian solidarity in the developed countries. We live in different times and 'nationalism' is back on the agenda as a _progressive_ force against the trans-national elites who control the world economy... and who don't much care about any place.

'No true Marxist' would assume that what was valid in the mid-19th century or at the beginning of the 20th would remain so in times and circumstances they couldn't foresee....

Vote Yes, whether you're a 'nationalist' or not...

[Alt-Del]

people who have gone from no to yes have probably not given the debate a second thought. Family and peer pressure are the key drivers. Not forgetting to mention the the impact of a very Smart Yes campaign on changing hearts(not minds)

Utter nonsense.

[Jacobite]

people who have gone from no to yes have probably not given the debate a second thought. Family and peer pressure are the key drivers. Not forgetting to mention the the impact of a very Smart Yes campaign on changing hearts(not minds)

They very likely have given the debate a 2nd 3rd and 4th thought. For many people their default position was no as that was what had been fed to them for years. So yes they may have listened to their friends and family ,they may have went and sought out further information or they may have been impacted by that very slick YES campaign that for the most part has went for heads not hearts.And at the end of all that they may have weighed that up with the negative fear mongering from the unionists.That is what debate is about. YES have successfully bypassed the media and won the argument,we are nowhere near there yet but those Scots who are members of the British establishment are getting the fright of their lives.

[ParisInAKilt]

people who have gone from no to yes gave probably not given the debate a second thought.

Predictable drivel. But an opinion that isn't uncommon and why no will lose this debate.

Edited September 6, 2014 by ParisInAKilt

[Third Lanark]

That's not quite right... Both Marx and Lenin supported anti-colonial nationalist movements, seeing them as a necessary part of the struggle. They opposed bourgeois nationalism, which worked against proletarian solidarity in the developed countries. We live in different times and 'nationalism' is back on the agenda as a _progressive_ force against the trans-national elites who control the world economy... and who don't much care about any place.

'No true Marxist' would assume that what was valid in the mid-19th century or at the beginning of the 20th would remain so in times and circumstances they couldn't foresee....

Vote Yes, whether you're a 'nationalist' or not...

Yes, was going to post something like that. And of course John McLean was appointed a sort of unofficial Scottish consul by Lenin. Marxism is not set in stone, it responds to working class experience.

[Third Lanark]

Certainly, basically I hate nationalism. I hate all the 'them' and 'us' stuff that this referendum has generated. I have friends from all over the UK and just hate the thought of us cutting ourselves off from the rest of Britain. I have always seen the home countries as like four brothers, all with distinct personalities, but with far more in common than differences. We get on each other's nerves, have fierce rivalries, make fun of each other, but, at the end of the day, we would stick up for each other if any of us were threatened. Sad that people want to throw that away. In addition, I don't believe a single word Alex Salmon and Nichola Sturgeon say. I truly believe they are more interested in Scotland becoming independent than Scotland being independent. As Salmond's biographer said, 'It's all about winning with Alex'. They will promise anything to get a Yes vote and have not demonstrated that they have a clear idea of how an independent Scotland would work in practice. It could genuinely be disastrous, and people need to think very carefully before they sign up for such an ill-thought through proposition. And no, I don't believe the statements coming out from the No campaign either but then I don't have to - I have lived in the union for nearly 50 years. I know what it's like. Is rule from Westminster perfect? Absolutely not. There are no end of ways we could improve things but I would rather see us attempt that than go down the independent route.

I'm not over keen on the SNP either: they are basically capitalists who want to run things according to the same system that has been failing for all the last century. IMO the real battle for socialism and Scotland starts after the Yes win:to start with, the SNP will probably dine out for a while on the fact that they'delivered' the Yes vote but after a while it will be seen that their attempt to manage capitalism will be exposed just like UK Labour.

[EddardStark]

I'm not over keen on the SNP either: they are basically capitalists who want to run things according to the same system that has been failing for all the last century. IMO the real battle for socialism and Scotland starts after the Yes win:to start with, the SNP will probably dine out for a while on the fact that they'delivered' the Yes vote but after a while it will be seen that their attempt to manage capitalism will be exposed just like UK Labour.

So tax, nationailise and expand the public sector? enjoy.

[EddardStark]

Predictable drivel. But an opinion that isn't uncommon and why no will lose this debate.

Seriously? so how have millions of people engaged then?

[ParisInAKilt]

Seriously? so how have millions of people engaged then?

I don't speak for the millions, just the people I know. I've never seen friends, family and friends of friends care so much about politics before. I believe this is reflected on a wider scale across Scotland from what I see online and on tv.

I don't expect you to understand based on your previous post.