Scotland v England British International Championship

[Malcolm]

I have been enjoying some time off from work and amusing myself by watching the matches from the late 70s to the 80s.

Apart from the enormous amount of talent that we had at our disposal some other things struck me…

 

stein invariably used a centre half alongside souness in the middle of the park.  Narey and Aitken being used.

richard gough was brilliant at right back. 

Our support had lion rampants rather than saltires.

In 1985, we had an equal head to head record against England.

 

Ah the good old days… sad it came to an end.  Our record against england since has been horrendous.

[Caledonian Craig]

3 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

I have been enjoying some time off from work and amusing myself by watching the matches from the late 70s to the 80s.

Apart from the enormous amount of talent that we had at our disposal some other things struck me…

 

stein invariably used a centre half alongside souness in the middle of the park.  Narey and Aitken being used.

richard gough was brilliant at right back. 

Our support had lion rampants rather than saltires.

In 1985, we had an equal head to head record against England.

 

Ah the good old days… sad it came to an end.  Our record against england since has been horrendous.

For all you call it the good old days we still had never got out of the group stages and by 1985 had never qualified for the Euros.

[Malcolm]

Just now, Caledonian Craig said:

For all you call it the good old days we still had never got out of the group stages and by 1985 had never qualified for the Euros.

we had been at three successive world cups by then… in the last 16 at two of them.

[Caledonian Craig]

As I said never out of the First Round with a honking embarrassment in Argentina going in as self-proclaimed winners and exiting with a thrashing against Peru and lucky draw V Iran and player sent home failing a drugs test 

[Malcolm]

7 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

As I said never out of the First Round with a honking embarrassment in Argentina going in as self-proclaimed winners and exiting with a thrashing against Peru and lucky draw V Iran and player sent home failing a drugs test 

 

we can only aspire to that level of honking embarrassment nowadays.

[Caledonian Craig]

My point is as long as we paint failure (not getting out of the First Round) as the good old days we will go nowhere.

What's worse? Having a better squad but embarrassing the country (like 1978) or having a weaker squad and negative mindset (today) and bombing out at the same stage as 1978? Both are massively wasted opportunities for different reasons.

[Ally Bongo]

49 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

 

 

 

Ah the good old days… sad it came to an end.  Our record against england since has been horrendous.

England started to take their International Football seriously - maybe not as early as 95 but soon after 

We never have and are still amateurs on the International stage 

Can all argue about next managers etc but nothing will ever change until their is a massive upheaval in Scottish Football from the top down

 

[Malcolm]

40 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

My point is as long as we paint failure (not getting out of the First Round) as the good old days we will go nowhere.

What's worse? Having a better squad but embarrassing the country (like 1978) or having a weaker squad and negative mindset (today) and bombing out at the same stage as 1978? Both are massively wasted opportunities for different reasons.

definitely rather be back then… so much potential in the 80s squad.  A defence with gough, miller and mcleish.

[Caledonian Craig]

7 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

definitely rather be back then… so much potential in the 80s squad.  A defence with gough, miller and mcleish.

But still the same end results and losing mentality.

[GHfaeGTA]

3 hours ago, Malcolm said:

I have been enjoying some time off from work and amusing myself by watching the matches from the late 70s to the 80s.

Apart from the enormous amount of talent that we had at our disposal some other things struck me…

 

stein invariably used a centre half alongside souness in the middle of the park.  Narey and Aitken being used.

richard gough was brilliant at right back. 

Our support had lion rampants rather than saltires.

In 1985, we had an equal head to head record against England.

 

Ah the good old days… sad it came to an end.  Our record against england since has been horrendous.

Gough was superb as a right back at Tannadice before moving to Spurs. Probably United’s greatest ever right back. Narey was superb for Scotland playing in various positions but rarely his club position of centre half.  No doubt United's best ever player. 

[ceudmilefailte]

2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

My point is as long as we paint failure (not getting out of the First Round) as the good old days we will go nowhere.

What's worse? Having a better squad but embarrassing the country (like 1978) or having a weaker squad and negative mindset (today) and bombing out at the same stage as 1978? Both are massively wasted opportunities for different reasons.

You’re having a laugh.

Last 16 in 78 is the same as last 48 in 2026. 

[Clyde1998]

For the 1986 World Cup, this was our squad [link]:

GK	Andy Goram	Oldham		ENG-2
GK	Jim Leighton	Aberdeen	SCO-1
GK	Alan Rough	Hibernian	SCO-1
DF	Arthur Albiston	Man Utd		ENG-1
DF	Richard Gough	Dundee Utd	SCO-1
DF	Maurice Malpas	Dundee Utd	SCO-1
DF	Alex McLeish	Aberdeen	SCO-1
DF	Willie Miller	Aberdeen	SCO-1
DF	David Narey	Dundee Utd	SCO-1
DF	Steve Nicol	Liverpool	ENG-1
MF	Roy Aitken	Celtic		SCO-1
MF	Eamonn Bannon	Dundee Utd	SCO-1
MF	Jim Bett	Aberdeen	SCO-1
MF	Paul McStay	Celtic		SCO-1
MF	Gordon Strachan	Man Utd		ENG-1
MF	Graeme Souness	Rangers		SCO-1
ST	Davie Cooper	Rangers		SCO-1
ST	Kenny Dalglish	Liverpool	ENG-1
ST	Frank McAvennie	West Ham	ENG-1
ST	Charlie Nicolas	Arsenal		ENG-1
ST	Graeme Sharp	Everton		ENG-1
ST	Paul Sturrock	Dundee Utd	SCO-1

+Stand-by+
GK	Campbell Money	St Mirren	SCO-1
DF	Murdo MacLeod	Celtic		SCO-1
DF	Alan Hansen	Liverpool	ENG-1
MF	Pat Nevin	Chelsea		ENG-1
ST	Steve Archibald	Barcelona	ESP-1
ST	David Speedie	Chelsea		ENG-1

Archibald replaced Dalglish after he got injured.

That stand-by list just shows the calibre of player missing out.

[Malcolm]

1 hour ago, GHfaeGTA said:

Gough was superb as a right back at Tannadice before moving to Spurs. Probably United’s greatest ever right back. Narey was superb for Scotland playing in various positions but rarely his club position of centre half.  No doubt United's best ever player. 

 

watching the old games stein obviously rated narey… had him at right back and centre mid.

gough was great… nice to have his ariel threat as well as getting up and down the right.

[Malcolm]

54 minutes ago, Clyde1998 said:

For the 1986 World Cup, this was our squad [link]:

GK	Andy Goram	Oldham		ENG-2
GK	Jim Leighton	Aberdeen	SCO-1
GK	Alan Rough	Hibernian	SCO-1
DF	Arthur Albiston	Man Utd		ENG-1
DF	Richard Gough	Dundee Utd	SCO-1
DF	Maurice Malpas	Dundee Utd	SCO-1
DF	Alex McLeish	Aberdeen	SCO-1
DF	Willie Miller	Aberdeen	SCO-1
DF	David Narey	Dundee Utd	SCO-1
DF	Steve Nicol	Liverpool	ENG-1
MF	Roy Aitken	Celtic		SCO-1
MF	Eamonn Bannon	Dundee Utd	SCO-1
MF	Jim Bett	Aberdeen	SCO-1
MF	Paul McStay	Celtic		SCO-1
MF	Gordon Strachan	Man Utd		ENG-1
MF	Graeme Souness	Rangers		SCO-1
ST	Davie Cooper	Rangers		SCO-1
ST	Kenny Dalglish	Liverpool	ENG-1
ST	Frank McAvennie	West Ham	ENG-1
ST	Charlie Nicolas	Arsenal		ENG-1
ST	Graeme Sharp	Everton		ENG-1
ST	Paul Sturrock	Dundee Utd	SCO-1

+Stand-by+
GK	Campbell Money	St Mirren	SCO-1
DF	Murdo MacLeod	Celtic		SCO-1
DF	Alan Hansen	Liverpool	ENG-1
MF	Pat Nevin	Chelsea		ENG-1
ST	Steve Archibald	Barcelona	ESP-1
ST	David Speedie	Chelsea		ENG-1

Archibald replaced Dalglish after he got injured.

That stand-by list just shows the calibre of player missing out.

 

i watched Fergies reason for leaving hansen out… apparently at the england game just before, hansen walked out on the pitch before the game… decided he didnt fancy it and said he was feeling his hamstring and wanted to ge t back up the road.  Fergie decided then fuck him.

[Caledonian Craig]

1 hour ago, ceudmilefailte said:

You’re having a laugh.

Last 16 in 78 is the same as last 48 in 2026. 

1978 was our biggest embarrassment - bar none. A squad spoken about as potential winners that came home in disgrace. How on Earth can that be spoken of as 'the good old days'.

1978 - we went in with huge expectations and were horse shit. 2026 - we went in with hope rather than expectations and shat the bed for varying reasons depending on your opinion.

Either way both were failures to get out of the First Round. We can try to paint it as last 16 if we wish  but that was in a tournament of 94 competing teams compared to last 48 in tournament of 205 competing teams. All equates to a First Round elimination. 

Edited July 11 by Caledonian Craig

[Clyde1998]

10 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

1978 was our biggest embarrassment - bar none. A squad spoken about as potential winners that came home in disgrace. How on Earth can that be spoken of as 'the good old days'.

1978 - we went in with huge expectations and were horse shit. 2026 - we went in with hope rather than expectations and shat the bed for varying reasons depending on your opinion.

Either way both were failures to get out of the First Round. We can try to paint it as last 16 if we wish  but that was in a tournament of 94 competing teams compared to last 48 in tournament of 205 competing teams. All equates to a First Round elimination. 

1978 was 'the good old days' in the sense of standard of player we had available to us (relative to other countries at least). It was possibly the strongest set of players we've ever taken to a major tournament (1974 would be the other contender).

I think Jock Stein was quoted as saying our annual matches against England were our biggest issue that time, because our results/performances in those games was the measure of success everyone was using (ie. beating England was seen as more important than doing well at the World Cup and especially the Euros).

[exile]

7 minutes ago, Clyde1998 said:

1978 was 'the good old days' in the sense of standard of player we had available to us (relative to other countries at least). It was possibly the strongest set of players we've ever taken to a major tournament (1974 would be the other contender).

I think Jock Stein was quoted as saying our annual matches against England were our biggest issue that time, because our results/performances in those games was the measure of success everyone was using (ie. beating England was seen as more important than doing well at the World Cup and especially the Euros).

And we were doing not bad in that, as we had an equal or better record at that time.

[Burj_Alba]

18 hours ago, Clyde1998 said:

1978 was 'the good old days' in the sense of standard of player we had available to us (relative to other countries at least). It was possibly the strongest set of players we've ever taken to a major tournament (1974 would be the other contender).

I think Jock Stein was quoted as saying our annual matches against England were our biggest issue that time, because our results/performances in those games was the measure of success everyone was using (ie. beating England was seen as more important than doing well at the World Cup and especially the Euros).

And he was correct. It was the biggest thing, especially every second year at Wembley.

Look how Wembley 1967 still resonates ( Baxter, Law, unofficial world champions and all that)  but the defeat to Northern Ireland that year meant England qualified for the 1968 European Championships rather than us. 

UEFA decided that qualifying for that tournament was through the home internationals in 1967/68 and we and drew 0-0 with England at Hampden  so had three points ( in old money) but of course England got 4 points V Northern Ireland and Wales , we got 2.