7 October revisited

[Barney Rubble]

1 minute ago, Hertsscot said:

I'll pose the original question, given that we can't rewrite history back to the late 1940s, and given the horrendous events of 7/10, how do you think Israel could or should have acted differently?

1) By standing down Netanyahu and his cronies. They failed to act on the clearly available intelligence at the time. They fucked up and they should carry the consequences for that.

2) Giving the IDF free reign to carry out a genocide isn't a good look and these actions will have consequences which already have been catastrophic for Israel's standing in the world.

3) By accepting that Palestinian women and children are not fair game for their retaliation against Hamas. Israel's actions have been entirely disproprortionate, illegal and have steadily eroded any goodwill they may have had from the international community.

Israel will eventually have to own the manner in which they have chosen to address this issue, and the consequences for their international status will be huge.

 

[TDYER63]

41 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

 

Israel fucked up and didnt take seriously some security intelligence …  im sure that happens a lot all over the world. Its irrelevant.

absolutely zero blame for them about what happened on October 7th and 100% blame to the perpetrators Hamas.

its a bit like saying if a girl is attacked walking down a dark road late at night she should have been more careful… bollocks… 100% its the attackers fault and they face the consequences.

 

Its nothing like that. 

[Hertsscot]

20 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

1) By standing down Netanyahu and his cronies. They failed to act on the clearly available intelligence at the time. They fucked up and they should carry the consequences for that.

2) Giving the IDF free reign to carry out a genocide isn't a good look and these actions will have consequences which already have been catastrophic for Israel's standing in the world.

3) By accepting that Palestinian women and children are not fair game for their retaliation against Hamas. Israel's actions have been entirely disproprortionate, illegal and have steadily eroded any goodwill they may have had from the international community.

Israel will eventually have to own the manner in which they have chosen to address this issue, and the consequences for their international status will be huge.

Thanks. In relation to pt2 it is quite incredible the way Israel so quickly lost public sympathy.

In relation to pt3 I would agree. For me cutting off electricity, and aid is a war crime, and is indiscriminately punishing the civilian population. Quite how Starmer thought this was morally or legally acceptable is utterly beyond me.

Sadly there's been a long history of targeting civilians to bring conflicts to a quicker end and many Israelis would have seen this as necessary (starving Hamas of fuel and food) in the same way many people felt about the firebombing of Dresden or the bombing of Hiroshima.

Edited October 7, 2025 by Hertsscot

[Malcolm]

34 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

It isn't and you know it isn't.

By defending the indefensible, you are condoning a genocide and by definition the politics on Netanyahu, Ben  Gvir and Smotrich.

Do two wrongs pass for a right in your moral compass?

Aren't you better than that???

i am not condoning Genocide in the slightest.  You clearly havent read my previous posts.  
 

I was explaining why this has happened.  

You seem to be insinuating that Israel knew of this and deliberately let it happen in order to justify the war - do you have any evidence for that?

i think the Israel have a right to exterminate Hamas, but not the Palestinians.  its a very difficult situation when Hamas are terrorists and use their own people as shields.
 

[Barney Rubble]

2 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

i am not condoning Genocide in the slightest.  You clearly havent read my previous posts.  
 

I was explaining why this has happened.  

You seem to be insinuating that Israel knew of this and deliberately let it happen in order to justify the war - do you have any evidence for that?

i think the Israel have a right to exterminate Hamas, but not the Palestinians.  its a very difficult situation when Hamas are terrorists and use their own people as shields.
 

Malcolm, for clarification - I did not insinuate any such thing.

[Malcolm]

1 minute ago, Barney Rubble said:

Malcolm, for clarification - I did not insinuate any such thing.

you said my point about them missing the security intelligence was not irrelevant so assumed thats what you meant.

 

 

[Hertsscot]

2 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

i am not condoning Genocide in the slightest.  You clearly havent read my previous posts.  
 

I was explaining why this has happened.  

You seem to be insinuating that Israel knew of this and deliberately let it happen in order to justify the war - do you have any evidence for that?

i think the Israel have a right to exterminate Hamas, but not the Palestinians.  its a very difficult situation when Hamas are terrorists and use their own people as shields.
 

The last paragraph is useful. The question that arises is if Israel has a right to exterminate Hamas then how could that be done without exterminating the Palestinians? 

[Malcolm]

4 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

The last paragraph is useful. The question that arises is if Israel has a right to exterminate Hamas then how could that be done without exterminating the Palestinians? 

Im sure if Israel knew the answer to that they would have done that.

My guess would be you would need significant intelligence combined with drones to individually assassinate each member.

 

[Hertsscot]

6 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

Im sure if Israel knew the answer to that they would have done that.

My guess would be you would need significant intelligence combined with drones to individually assassinate each member.

I don't know. I do think there are people on both sides who don't believe the others have any right to exist. Hopefully their voices won't be listened to at present.

Edited October 7, 2025 by Hertsscot

[Barney Rubble]

20 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

you said my point about them missing the security intelligence was not irrelevant so assumed thats what you meant.

 

 

To clarify, my insinuation was that Netanyahu and his cabal failed to act upon intelligence information that had allegedly been provided to them in advance of the Hamas action.

Edited October 7, 2025 by Barney Rubble

[vanderark14]

29 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

To clarify, my insinuation was that Netanyahu and his cabal failed to act upon intelligence information that had allegedly been provided to them in advance of the Hamas action.

I thought it was confirmed by the US secretary of Defence that Egypt gave the Israelis the intelligence regarding the attack. 

I guess the debate is whether they ignored it so they could go to all out war, didnt take it seriously or were too slow to act 

 

[Hertsscot]

On spotters having their reports ignored: https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/my-daughter-could-have-stopped-october-7-the-nahal-oz-spotters-whose-warnings-were-ignored-jkusmjgt

Ha'aretz, one of the left wing dailies, also reported it but I haven't found the link.

[exile]

It's sad that the victims have become a political football. But here we are.

10 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

However, the question that I wrestle with is this, given history up to that point, what could or should Israel have done in response? ... Plenty of people have condemned Israel (rightly) but would any other country have acted differently?

Yes, I am pretty sure that's what happens most times: other countries generally don't do what Israel have done to Gaza.

It's not an exact parallel, but when the IRA committed 'atrocities' in N Ireland, the British Army retaliated and committed some 'atrocities' of their own. But they tended to be directly reacting to either 'combatants' or people causing disturbances on the streets, including kids throwing stones and so on, and yes, force was at times disproportionate and indiscriminate and innocent people killed; but they did not systematically bomb west Belfast into rubble (just because there may be some IRA guys there). I don't recall that they ever decided to earmark a whole neighbourhood, tell everyone to evacuate, and then proceed to blow it to bits whether the people had left or not. I am pretty sure there are more examples but maybe the above is a start.

[RanelaghScot]

Always a laugh to know that there are people who think this all started on October 7th.

At the end of the day Israel has been given free reign by the western world, media, and a large part of the western population to do to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to the Jews during WW2.

Unlike WW2 we have all the information at our finger tips, however a large part of the population decides to look the other way because Israelis = white & palestinians =brown muslims in their minds and if the genocide is being carried out on a non white population we can continue scrolling.

The position of zionist politicians in Israel in regards to Gaza is nothing short of evil and I hope at some point in the future people will look back in horror at how the majority of the world either looked the other way or cheered Israel on.

 

 

 

[kumnio]

11 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

However, the question that I wrestle with is this, given history up to that point, what could or should Israel have done in response? 

Plenty of people have condemned Israel (rightly) but would any other country have acted differently?

Israel couldn't win this with a targeted attack against Hamas, it was impossible. Hamas went out of their way to hide amongst civilians, with the hope that in doing so, they could avoid full on retribution. It clearly did not work.

Wars or skirmishes between two unequal sides usually end up in a one sided bloodbath. A proportional response might be virtuous, but the stronger power usually wants retribution or at the very least an over whelming 'win'.

We have seen horrendous attacks committed in Afghanistan, or Iraq, or Rwanda, or Myanmar, or Yugoslavia, or Nigeria, or Sudan, or Yemen, or Ukraine, or Uganda, these are just the big ones that's happened in my lifetime that I can recall, there will be plenty more. We should never be surprised my mans ability to kill each other now.

Israel did what they did, what they were always going to do at some point, and that is a monumental attack against the people, infrastructure and facilities. Im a bit surprised at the level of attack and utter destruction.

There's no ideal world or situation here, targeting individuals or small groups of Hamas would not achieve anything in the mind of Israel, they would simply create martyrs. They would be worshipped by large swathes of people, and quickly replaced. There's no point killing the head of the snake when it can regrow, Israel decided to kill the entire snake.

You can have various opinions on the same issues in this topic. If you believe Israel, they claim to have told civilians that area XX is being bombed, so get out. Or you can believe that they have committed war crimes against civilians. Personally, I believe both have happened.

Contrary to what others have said, I see no future comeback against Israel. You won't ever see anyone from Netanyahu down to an IDF soldier facing a trial for their crimes. 

The video post by Ally above is interesting, but the wider political world doesn't care about the lies that Israel have told, hence why nothing will happen against Israel. There will be countless millions of normal people who'll be disgusted by the lies, but we dont matter, we never have really. 

[vanderark14]

10 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

The last paragraph is useful. The question that arises is if Israel has a right to exterminate Hamas then how could that be done without exterminating the Palestinians? 

To me it looks like Israel have finally had enough, as horrible as it sounds they are fed up with their country being targeted by terrorists and they want to obliterate Hamas and this includes every hiding place 

What I find fascinating is how quickly people on this board and the wider population of the UK instantly believe anything "their" side says. for example if a missile hits a hospital = Murdering Israelis but what if its true what the Israeli's say and Hamas were using it to store their weapons and to hide from the IDF?. The answer is, we don't know because both sides in a war use propaganda to gain support. 

 

[vanderark14]

7 hours ago, RanelaghScot said:

Always a laugh to know that there are people who think this all started on October 7th.

At the end of the day Israel has been given free reign by the western world, media, and a large part of the western population to do to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to the Jews during WW2.

Unlike WW2 we have all the information at our finger tips, however a large part of the population decides to look the other way because Israelis = white & palestinians =brown muslims in their minds and if the genocide is being carried out on a non white population we can continue scrolling.

The position of zionist politicians in Israel in regards to Gaza is nothing short of evil and I hope at some point in the future people will look back in horror at how the majority of the world either looked the other way or cheered Israel on.

 

 

 

I think most people understand the entire conflict between Israel and Hamas did not start in 2023 but its the latest spark which ignited another all out war.

What response would you have preferred Israel to make this time?

[Hertsscot]

2 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

I think most people understand the entire conflict between Israel and Hamas did not start in 2023 but its the latest spark which ignited another all out war.

What response would you have preferred Israel to make this time?

Exactly, that's why I asked specifically about what could or should have happened after 7/10.

[Ally Bongo]

38 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

Exactly, that's why I asked specifically about what could or should have happened after 7/10.

More apt would be what Israel wanted to happen 

[Hertsscot]

34 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

More apt would be what Israel wanted to happen 

I think we've all seen what Israel wanted to happen.