7 October revisited

[Hertsscot]

In some ways this is hypothetical but I think it's worth asking and I'm interested in people's responses.

Two years ago, saw the most appalling slaughter of young people at a music festival, ordinary women, men and children murdered in cold blood, and hundreds of others kidnapped.

Hamas actions on that day were evil and have resulted in terrible suffering for the Palestinian people. Israel's response was utterly predictable, I can only think that Hamas hoped it would lead to a regional conflict but they misjudged it badly.

Posters on this board have expressed a variety of opinions but have all deplored the terrible suffering. For the record I think Israel has been guilty of war crimes and genocide as legally defined. 

However, the question that I wrestle with is this, given history up to that point, what could or should Israel have done in response? Hamas are not a conventional army and are embedded in the civilian population and infrastructure of Gaza, they had also threatened that similar massacres of civilians would happen again.

I can point to things that Israel shouldn't have done but am wondering was there a better way of dealing with the threat that Hamas posed than we've seen unfold. Plenty of people have condemned Israel (rightly) but would any other country have acted differently?

Sent from Outlook for Android

[Ally Bongo]

 

[Orraloon]

Have folk stopped asking the question, "Why did the Israeli and US governments allow the Hamas attack to happen in the first place?" They had ample opportunity to stop it in it's tracks but choose not to. 

I think we need to look at least this one step backwards, if we want to have any understanding of why this is happening. This is the main question that political historians will be asking for years to come, but for the time being our politicians and MSM seem to be ignoring it. 

[Hertsscot]

3 hours ago, Orraloon said:

Have folk stopped asking the question, "Why did the Israeli and US governments allow the Hamas attack to happen in the first place?" They had ample opportunity to stop it in it's tracks but choose not to. 

I think we need to look at least this one step backwards, if we want to have any understanding of why this is happening. This is the main question that political historians will be asking for years to come, but for the time being our politicians and MSM seem to be ignoring it. 

I think you could well be right, it has certainly suited some people in the Israeli government. Certainly some Israeli newspapers at the time were highly critical of the IDF for ignoring warnings about what was happening in Gaza. Conspiracy or cock up? A lot of the 'soldiers' spotting unusual activity leading up to 7/10 were young women so sexism might well come into it.

I guess I'm still working out whether there was any alternative to what happened, and is happening (whether it was allowed to happen deliberately or through negligence).

[Malcolm]

 

hamas are a bunch of medieval cunts recently executing their own people in the street. I will be glad when they are extinguished from the planet.

the whole thing is tragic.  The Palestinians need only look to Hamas as to what brought this whole tragedy about.

to somehow suggest that israel and the US allowed to the 7th to happen so as to have an excuse to wage this war is fantasy.  What evidence do you have for that?

[Big Ramy 1314]

23 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

 

hamas are a bunch of medieval cunts recently executing their own people in the street. I will be glad when they are extinguished from the planet.

the whole thing is tragic.  The Palestinians need only look to Hamas as to what brought this whole tragedy about.

to somehow suggest that israel and the US allowed to the 7th to happen so as to have an excuse to wage this war is fantasy.  What evidence do you have for that?

You are an uneducated cnut !! Not the first time you have written pure pish !! 

[Hertsscot]

4 minutes ago, Big Ramy 1314 said:

You are an uneducated cnut !! Not the first time you have written pure pish !! 

Given what had happened, and what Hamas might have done in the future, what do you think Israel could or should have done? 

[Big Ramy 1314]

Just now, Hertsscot said:

Given what had happened, and what Hamas might have done in the future, what do you think Israel could or should have done? 

It doesn't matter what I think.. Israel will do whatever the fuck they want, bomb whatever country they want, while Trump funds them and the rest of this coward world does nothing...

[Hertsscot]

1 minute ago, Big Ramy 1314 said:

It doesn't matter what I think.. Israel will do whatever the fuck they want, bomb whatever country they want, while Trump funds them and the rest of this coward world does nothing...

I appreciate that, and I'm not defending Israel's actions. Early on I accused them of ethnic cleansing and war crimes. Given modern legal definitions of genocide I think they're guilty of that as well. 

I do wonder however was there any way of Israel responding which didn't lead to the actions and the suffering which you rightly deplore?

[Hertsscot]

38 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

 

hamas are a bunch of medieval cunts recently executing their own people in the street. I will be glad when they are extinguished from the planet.

the whole thing is tragic.  The Palestinians need only look to Hamas as to what brought this whole tragedy about.

to somehow suggest that israel and the US allowed to the 7th to happen so as to have an excuse to wage this war is fantasy.  What evidence do you have for that?

I have no time for Hamas or their Iranian backers, they have caused immeasurable suffering for the people of Gaza. On your other point there have been many political commentators who have said that this conflict has helped prop up the current Israeli Government and particularly Netanyahu. As stated previously whether that was conspiracy or cock up, we may never know but we do know that reports of suspicious activity in Gaza were ignored.

[vanderark14]

7 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

In some ways this is hypothetical but I think it's worth asking and I'm interested in people's responses.

Two years ago, saw the most appalling slaughter of young people at a music festival, ordinary women, men and children murdered in cold blood, and hundreds of others kidnapped.

Hamas actions on that day were evil and have resulted in terrible suffering for the Palestinian people. Israel's response was utterly predictable, I can only think that Hamas hoped it would lead to a regional conflict but they misjudged it badly.

Posters on this board have expressed a variety of opinions but have all deplored the terrible suffering. For the record I think Israel has been guilty of war crimes and genocide as legally defined. 

However, the question that I wrestle with is this, given history up to that point, what could or should Israel have done in response? Hamas are not a conventional army and are embedded in the civilian population and infrastructure of Gaza, they had also threatened that similar massacres of civilians would happen again.

I can point to things that Israel shouldn't have done but am wondering was there a better way of dealing with the threat that Hamas posed than we've seen unfold. Plenty of people have condemned Israel (rightly) but would any other country have acted differently?

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When i saw this thread, I expected it to turn nasty...... didnt take long

[Malcolm]

35 minutes ago, Big Ramy 1314 said:

You are an uneducated cnut !! Not the first time you have written pure pish !! 

Ramy, get off your high horse and try making some sensible comment.

Hamas poked the bear.  
 

Im aware that there is an entire history behind this and you will notice I am not defending the colateral damage Israel have caused.

If Hamas had any thought for their own people they would fight like a regular army rather than use their own as human shields.

Hamas have fucked around and unfortunately for the world its the poor palestinians that are finding out and not just hamas.

 

 

[Malcolm]

19 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

I have no time for Hamas or their Iranian backers, they have caused immeasurable suffering for the people of Gaza. On your other point there have been many political commentators who have said that this conflict has helped prop up the current Israeli Government and particularly Netanyahu. As stated previously whether that was conspiracy or cock up, we may never know but we do know that reports of suspicious activity in Gaza were ignored.

I would have thought with modern warfare and technology that Israel would have been able to be far more surgical in the removal of Hamas.

not sure how this can end other than the surrender of Hamas.

 

 

 

[Big Ramy 1314]

4 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

Ramy, get off your high horse and try making some sensible comment.

Hamas poked the bear.  
 

Im aware that there is an entire history behind this and you will notice I am not defending the colateral damage Israel have caused.

If Hamas had any thought for their own people they would fight like a regular army rather than use their own as human shields.

Hamas have fucked around and unfortunately for the world its the poor palestinians that are finding out and not just hamas.

 

 

Hamas poked the bear ??????????????

Are you fuckin serious ya daft bastard ????

I need not reply anymore to your posts or I will be banned permanently!!!! 

 

[Malcolm]

6 minutes ago, Big Ramy 1314 said:

Hamas poked the bear ??????????????

Are you fuckin serious ya daft bastard ????

I need not reply anymore to your posts or I will be banned permanently!!!! 

 

what else do you call october the 7th?

 

[Och Aye]

8 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

I would have thought with modern warfare and technology that Israel would have been able to be far more surgical in the removal of Hamas.

 

 

 

At last! I agree with you here.

Now the question is why haven't they been more surgical in taking them out?

[Malcolm]

3 minutes ago, Och Aye said:

At last! I agree with you here.

Now the question is why haven't they been more surgical in taking them out?

that can only be a matter of speculation as nobody apart from the inner circle will know

[Big Ramy 1314]

9 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

what else do you call october the 7th?

 

Ok then Malcomyahu? When did this start?

[TDYER63]

1 hour ago, Malcolm said:

 

hamas are a bunch of medieval cunts recently executing their own people in the street. I will be glad when they are extinguished from the planet.

the whole thing is tragic.  The Palestinians need only look to Hamas as to what brought this whole tragedy about.

to somehow suggest that israel and the US allowed to the 7th to happen so as to have an excuse to wage this war is fantasy.  What evidence do you have for that?

Purely being Devils advocate here as I have no evidence as to how reliable this article is . Nor am I excusing Hamas in any way whatsoever. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html

 

‘’Officials privately concede that, had the military taken these warnings seriously and redirected significant reinforcements to the south, where Hamas attacked, Israel could have blunted the attacks or possibly even prevented them.’’

[Malcolm]

3 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Purely being Devils advocate here as I have no evidence as to how reliable this article is . Nor am I excusing Hamas in any way whatsoever. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html

 

‘’Officials privately concede that, had the military taken these warnings seriously and redirected significant reinforcements to the south, where Hamas attacked, Israel could have blunted the attacks or possibly even prevented them.’’

 

Israel fucked up and didnt take seriously some security intelligence …  im sure that happens a lot all over the world. Its irrelevant.

absolutely zero blame for them about what happened on October 7th and 100% blame to the perpetrators Hamas.

its a bit like saying if a girl is attacked walking down a dark road late at night she should have been more careful… bollocks… 100% its the attackers fault and they face the consequences.

 

[Malcolm]

24 minutes ago, Big Ramy 1314 said:

Ok then Malcomyahu? When did this start?

1948 I believe.

[Barney Rubble]

Just now, Malcolm said:

 

Israel fucked up and didnt take seriously some security intelligence …  im sure that happens a lot all over the world. Its irrelevant.

absolutely zero blame for them about what happened on October 7th and 100% blame to the perpetrators Hamas.

its a bit like saying if a girl is attacked walking down a dark road late at night she should have been more careful… bollocks… 100% its the attackers fault and they face the consequences.

 

It isn't and you know it isn't.

By defending the indefensible, you are condoning a genocide and by definition the politics on Netanyahu, Ben  Gvir and Smotrich.

Do two wrongs pass for a right in your moral compass?

Aren't you better than that???

[Hertsscot]

35 minutes ago, Och Aye said:

At last! I agree with you here.

Now the question is why haven't they been more surgical in taking them out?

Theoretically smart weapons should minimise civilian casualties but they're only as smart as the people operating them. Also I suspect that both in the Ukraine and Gaza they've deliberately targeted non-combatants to spread terror and demoralise the civilian population.

[Hertsscot]

3 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

It isn't and you know it isn't.

By defending the indefensible, you are condoning a genocide and by definition the politics on Netanyahu, Ben  Gvir and Smotrich.

Do two wrongs pass for a right in your moral compass?

Aren't you better than that???

I'll pose the original question, given that we can't rewrite history back to the late 1940s, and given the horrendous events of 7/10, how do you think Israel could or should have acted differently?

[Big Ramy 1314]

10 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

1948 I believe.

Then who " Poked the bear" as you claim????