Scottish Independence Talk

[Caledonian Craig]

Welcome back Ally Bongo.

[Caledonian Craig]

I did make this point before on the old post and rightly people felt it couldn't work but the other day I saw something that has me think twice.

The point I made is the SNP should stand under the same umbrella in England as an independence party. Look to garner votes from people in England who want English independence and they and the SNP and Plaid Cymru would work as one to bring independence to England, Scotland and Wales. I cannot remember what Tweet I saw it on but there was a post from a group calling for English Independence and it had a lot of members. Maybe this could work.

[Toepoke]

55 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

I did make this point before on the old post and rightly people felt it couldn't work but the other day I saw something that has me think twice.

The point I made is the SNP should stand under the same umbrella in England as an independence party. Look to garner votes from people in England who want English independence and they and the SNP and Plaid Cymru would work as one to bring independence to England, Scotland and Wales. I cannot remember what Tweet I saw it on but there was a post from a group calling for English Independence and it had a lot of members. Maybe this could work.

The problem there is English independence is so intertwined with the far right. If there's an 'England first' party right now it's Reform.

A fairly trivial example, but it illustrates the mindset...

[Caledonian Craig]

4 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

The problem there is English independence is so intertwined with the far right. If there's an 'England first' party right now it's Reform.

A fairly trivial example, but it illustrates the mindset...

Fair enough but this group I speak of I am pretty sure had no connection to Reform. They seemed lucid, sane and not rabid.

Also Reform have never been about English independence. They are throwbacks to the British Empire brigade believing Britain is everything. They dream of recreating something (the British Empire) that died decades ago. Their goal is enhance the British stranglehold on its dominions and threatening to shut down Holyrood to enhance Westminster. The English independence group wants rid of Westminster and wants its own parliament.

Edited May 29, 2025 by Caledonian Craig

[scotlad]

Encouraging news, especially after everything that's happened over the past few years, including actual campaigning for independence dwindling to virtually zero.

 

[Orraloon]

7 minutes ago, scotlad said:

Encouraging news, especially after everything that's happened over the past few years, including actual campaigning for independence dwindling to virtually zero.

 

I think that is the first full Scotland wide poll for a while. Good numbers for the SNP, but bi-elections are notoriously difficult to predict, so not sure what will happen next week.

[TDYER63]

1 hour ago, scotlad said:

Encouraging news, especially after everything that's happened over the past few years, including actual campaigning for independence dwindling to virtually zero.

 

A new poll suggests that Nigel Farage becoming prime minister could push support for Scottish independence to 58%.

The survey by Norstat for the Sunday Times, which spoke to 1,007 Scots between May 27 and May 30, showed support for separation currently sits at 54% in Scotland.

However, if Reform UK were to win the next general election, that figure could reach 60%, and some believe it should be the tipping point for another referendum.

The figure rose from 50% in the last Norstat poll in January.

[Caledonian Craig]

15 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

A new poll suggests that Nigel Farage becoming prime minister could push support for Scottish independence to 58%.

The survey by Norstat for the Sunday Times, which spoke to 1,007 Scots between May 27 and May 30, showed support for separation currently sits at 54% in Scotland.

However, if Reform UK were to win the next general election, that figure could reach 60%, and some believe it should be the tipping point for another referendum.

The figure rose from 50% in the last Norstat poll in January.

Problem is by then it may be too late. Garage as PM would certainly not be granting any referendum - quite the opposite. He will be closing the Scottish Parliament and reversing devolution. What Scotland would want that? Well I can think of two that post on here.

[TDYER63]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Problem is by then it may be too late. Garage as PM would certainly not be granting any referendum - quite the opposite. He will be closing the Scottish Parliament and reversing devolution. What Scotland would want that? Well I can think of two that post on here.

I dont think even Farage would attempt to close down the Parliament without overwhelming support for getting rid of it, which there is not . He would need to do the same in Wales. This actually could create civil war in the UK. Hardly a ringing endorsement of his leadership and making Britain great again. 
Consistent support at 60% could not be ignored. And part of me thinks he would be happy to get rid of us. He is an English nationalist first and foremost. 
Dont get me wrong though, if I had the choice I would not want the route to independence to be through a Farage government. 

[Och Aye]

46 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

And part of me thinks he would be happy to get rid of us.

If he ever gets near power I would imagine the top tier of the civil service would be sitting him down and explaining they would struggle without Scotland's assets (albeit in very simplistic terms so he'd understand).

[TDYER63]

38 minutes ago, Och Aye said:

If he ever gets near power I would imagine the top tier of the civil service would be sitting him down and explaining they would struggle without Scotland's assets (albeit in very simplistic terms so he'd understand).

I doubt he would listen. He is a Trump wannabe and he listens to no one. 

[mccaughey85]

5 hours ago, Och Aye said:

If he ever gets near power I would imagine the top tier of the civil service would be sitting him down and explaining they would struggle without Scotland's assets (albeit in very simplistic terms so he'd understand).

Yeh theres no way the British establishment and corporations are letting farage hand over Scotland. Too much money at stake.

Begs the question of will Scotland ever be independent. Theres probably only 3m indy supporters in Scotland so from their point of view we are just a minor inconvenience to them and the idea we separate the northern part of this island with all its natural resources and wealth away from the elites is highly unlikely.

[mccaughey85]

4 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

I doubt he would listen. He is a Trump wannabe and he listens to no one. 

Doesn't matter. He would soon be forced to by big business and the British establishment maybe even including the British military. Farage is just a figurehead.

Its nice to see polls showing support for Scottish independence but reality is that we probably won't be seeing it ever. Too much money and power is invested in us staying with the UK. 

[Ally Bongo]

19 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Doesn't matter. He would soon be forced to by big business and the British establishment maybe even including the British military. Farage is just a figurehead.

 

They said that about Trump .....and if you want to go further back and be more extreme - Hitler

However - Farage is the British Establishment - despite his man of the people persona 

The heads of the armed forces are also all British Establishment  

That's why there could never be a military coup in the UK - unless there was a very left wing Government 

[mccaughey85]

25 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

They said that about Trump .....and if you want to go further back and be more extreme - Hitler

However - Farage is the British Establishment - despite his man of the people persona 

The heads of the armed forces are also all British Establishment  

That's why there could never be a military coup in the UK - unless there was a very left wing Government 

Trump is still being controlled by the elite in the USA. What you might call deep state. 

Hitler was a figurehead as well. He had a whole team of backers who influenced him and probably controlled his actions to a certain extent.

The prime minister or president of any country is never some free wheeling bloke who has full control over the country. Its quite the opposite imo. They are put there by the elites and if these ppl don't want Scottish independence then they will apply the pressure on farage and the reform party until they break(which wouldn't take much). 

Scottish independence depends on wether the British establishment and the global elites allow it and farage has very little say.

Edited June 2, 2025 by mccaughey85

[Ally Bongo]

48 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Trump is still being controlled by the elite in the USA. What you might call deep state. 

Hitler was a figurehead as well. He had a whole team of backers who influenced him and probably controlled his actions to a certain extent.

 

Hitler's "backers" were the German Establishment who eventually handed him the keys 

He rewarded them by dismantling democracy in 6 months 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_von_Papen#Bringing_Hitler_to_power

It's fairly obvious that in this term Trump is not being controlled by anyone - the first thing he did was get his own men into high Government positions 

Guess who also did that - albeit in more extreme ways  

Edited June 2, 2025 by Ally Bongo

[mccaughey85]

24 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Hitler's "backers" were the German Establishment who eventually handed him the keys 

He rewarded them by dismantling democracy in 6 months 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_von_Papen#Bringing_Hitler_to_power

It's fairly obvious that in this term Trump is not being controlled by anyone - the first thing he did was get his own men into high Government positions 

Guess who also did that - albeit in more extreme ways  

I don't think your getting my point. Anything Hitler did would have been influenced heavily by the German establishment. If he dismantled democracy it was probably because they wanted him to.

Trump might have a bit more freedom to do as he pleases but ultimately he will answer to the elites who allowed him to get to power in the first place. He thinks he's in charge and placing his own guys into power but it will be the deep state that want these guys in high positions.

Theres maybe a power struggle happening at a higher level and that will probably decide the fate of Scotland but the idea that farage will decide our future is naive at best. 

[TDYER63]

3 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Doesn't matter. He would soon be forced to by big business and the British establishment maybe even including the British military. Farage is just a figurehead.

Its nice to see polls showing support for Scottish independence but reality is that we probably won't be seeing it ever. Too much money and power is invested in us staying with the UK. 

 
Yes Farage is just a figurehead but he is not well liked up here and that could nudge a few more people towards independence.

If its naive to think that the people of Scotland could  see a better future with us being independent , and also see that the external pressure to keep us in this union is just a bogey man, then so be it. I would rather have some faith than a lame acceptance that it will never happen .
Much as I think Scotland has a lot to give , I think the political pressure for us to remain in the UK is exaggerated. Brexit was a world shock , most people couldn’t point out Scotland on a map.

We would not be without negotiating power  and I don’t think the EU  would have UK’s back next time. 

[TDYER63]

Farage on the news criticising Sarwar of being sectarian and saying that sectarianism is not for him.

Whilst canvassing in Larkhall 😆

[mccaughey85]

13 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

 
Yes Farage is just a figurehead but he is not well liked up here and that could nudge a few more people towards independence.

If its naive to think that the people of Scotland could  see a better future with us being independent , and also see that the external pressure to keep us in this union is just a bogey man, then so be it. I would rather have some faith than a lame acceptance that it will never happen .
Much as I think Scotland has a lot to give , I think the political pressure for us to remain in the UK is exaggerated. Brexit was a world shock , most people couldn’t point out Scotland on a map.

We would not be without negotiating power  and I don’t think the EU  would have UK’s back next time. 

I agree with most of that. I also never said it was naive for Scots to want independence. 

I think theres huge political pressure for us to remain in the UK. UK relies on our natural resources and other industries for money. We are a huge asset to the UK and they don't want us to leave. 

[StirlingEgg]

2 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

Farage on the news criticising Sarwar of being sectarian and saying that sectarianism is not for him.

Whilst canvassing in Larkhall 😆

He seems pretty ignorant of that kind of stuff, like a lot of Rule Britannia types oddly enough. Unless someone has enlightened him. Remember that "up the ra" riddy! He is the type of cretin that can't be embarrassed or shamed though, must be what private schooling does for you. 

[AlfieMoon]

On 6/1/2025 at 4:59 PM, TDYER63 said:

A new poll suggests that Nigel Farage becoming prime minister could push support for Scottish independence to 58%.

The survey by Norstat for the Sunday Times, which spoke to 1,007 Scots between May 27 and May 30, showed support for separation currently sits at 54% in Scotland.

However, if Reform UK were to win the next general election, that figure could reach 60%, and some believe it should be the tipping point for another referendum.

The figure rose from 50% in the last Norstat poll in January.

Only 58% in that hypothetical scenario is quite pathetic. Not to mention that it’s soft as fvck anyway.  We’ve already seen this bogey man scenario with Boris and it has not mattered a jot. Scotland is soft and take what we’re given. 

That said, if support is edging up over time then there’s a chance we will get there at some point but I think it would be another 10-20 years. 

[TDYER63]

2 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

I agree with most of that. I also never said it was naive for Scots to want independence. 

I think theres huge political pressure for us to remain in the UK. UK relies on our natural resources and other industries for money. We are a huge asset to the UK and they don't want us to leave. 

Apologies, you said it was naive at best to think Farage would decide our future . I tend to think he could as a ‘ straw that breaks the camels back’ kinda way, but you didn’t say it was naive to want independence 👍

I agree we are a huge asset to the UK which creates massive political pressure here, but I think the interest from the rest of the world is exaggerated. Considering everything else that is going on worldwide, should Scotland vote to leave the UK tomorrow the news would be chip paper by the weekend.

That of course is an exaggeration but it would not command headlines for months . Other countries will work round it the way they work round any change to the normal order of things.

Being fearful of political pressure is exactly what they want,  and should be one of the main reasons for people to stand up and be counted. 

[TDYER63]

40 minutes ago, StirlingEgg said:

He seems pretty ignorant of that kind of stuff, like a lot of Rule Britannia types oddly enough. Unless someone has enlightened him. Remember that "up the ra" riddy! He is the type of cretin that can't be embarrassed or shamed though, must be what private schooling does for you. 

He probably hasn’t encountered West of Scotland sectarianism problems but has heard of them, in the same way he has heard of immigration problems, but hasnt actually encountered them. . 

[TDYER63]

9 minutes ago, AlfieMoon said:

Only 58% in that hypothetical scenario is quite pathetic. Not to mention that it’s soft as fvck anyway.  We’ve already seen this bogey man scenario with Boris and it has not mattered a jot. Scotland is soft and take what we’re given. 

That said, if support is edging up over time then there’s a chance we will get there at some point but I think it would be another 10-20 years. 

It is pathetic and you are right nothing happened with Boris. But each time Scotland is shat on it seems to push  polls a tiny bit higher. It will definitely be a gradual thing, there is no obvious scenario where polling jumps to 70 %. Farage as PM could solidify it around 60 %. 
I dont think it will happen short term but I do think it will. It definitely wont happen if no one believes it can.