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The Annual Poppy Debate


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This year, as every other year of my life, I will not be wearing a poppy.

Here's a good read.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/poppy-appeal-2014-this-is-why-i-wont-be-wearing-a-red-poppy-this-year-9814449.html

Hers another good read.

http://www.1914-1918.net/9div.htm

I always took you to be a fairly intelligent tamber, however, to start this thread you must have had a bad day.

You know there are a lot of serving or ex serving people on the board, and we have the same thread every year, which always causes controversy and generally someone getting banned.

As an ex serviceman myself, I will be wearing a poppy. To remember those that have fallen serving their country. No need for a white poppy. The red one is, and should always be a reminder about the futility of war.

I recently had the very humbling/harrowing experience of visiting the Flanders area, whilst travelling to Dortmund. As well as visiting some of the battlefields and museums, I visited the grave of my great uncle. A very emotive experience walking through a cemetery of 200 headstones, and seeing the names of some of the great Scottish regiments of years gone by, Cameron Highlanders, Seaforth Highlanders, Royal Scots, Black Watch etc., and the ages of those that were killed. Mostly all young Scotsmen.

Thats why I will be wearing my Red Poppy, so those people aren't forgotten, and to remind the generation of today about the futility of it all. Perhaps you should try visiting for yourself.

I have also bought one of the ceramic poppies from the display at the Tower of London, and will be placing it on his grave in 2018. To commemorate the 100th anniversary of his death, which, ironically, was on the day you started the thread. The sad thing is, it was the last day his regiment saw action.

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I wear a poppy every year but hate the poppy fascism that is the norm now, where people appear to be forced to wear a poppy if they want to appear on the telly. Also the fact that people wear them earlier and earlier each year

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personal choice for those who either want or chose not to wear it. I have issues with symbolic statements which have a tendency to place people in categories. A simple moment of silence on remembrance day should suffice. Also why are people wearing poppies nearly a month before the actual day?

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I have ended up with two poppies this year - usually only wear mine on 11 November and the couple of days leading up to it. It is strange to see people wearing them before Halloween. And I wasn't happy about the way the poppy was co-opted into some sort of support for the Iraq war when that was on. However the act of remembrance behind the poppy trumps the recent TV-led poppy fetish, especially as this year the Great War is in everyone's minds.

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No chance I will be wearing one. I respect and am thankful for those civilians that were forced to fight the wars for others in World War 1 and 2, but the british army's action since then are nothing to be proud of. Furthermore, rightly or wrongly, to me it is a symbol of right wing Britain of which I want to have no part what so ever.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Saw this on facebook tonight :

I am not a badge of honour,
I am not a racist smear,
I am not a fashion statement,
To be worn but once a year,
I am not glorification
Of conflict or of war.
I am not a paper ornament
A token,
I am more.
I am a loving memory,
Of a father or a son,
A permanent reminder
Of each and every one.
I'm paper or enamel
I'm old or shining new,
I'm a way of saying thank you,
To every one of you.
I am a simple poppy
A Reminder to you all,
That courage faith and honour,
Will stand where heroes fall.

– Author: Paul Hunter

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I want to wear a poppy, I really do.

But I'm loathe to do it.

The poppy fascism that has gathered steam over the past few years is getting to a point now where people will soon start being abused in the street because they don't have one on. Now if this was purely an attempt to really remember those that died then I wouldn't have an issue with it, but I believe government is using Remembrance Day and the poppy to blur the lines between remembering those who died, supporting the current troops and supporting conflict - you can't denounce the last of these without someone conflating it with a lack of support for the troops, or disrespecting the dead. It's becoming an event, like Easter. But it feels forced. As if someone is driving it. Oh wait ...

Edited by Stapes
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Stapes is right - the whole thing is almost becoming Americanised. I sat in my home this evening and watched on the news the events commemorating Remembrance Day across the country and couldn't help but feel moved. But for me days like today are all about remembering those brave servicemen who made the ultimate sacrifice in repelling German fascism in two great Wars. We lost good men in Afghanistan and Iraq, but for what? To satisfy the bloodlust of Blair and Bush in the name of oil?

No, for me it is all about remembering the men that fell in the two World Wars. And such sacrifices were made to allow us to make the decision whether to wear a poppy or not. Me personally? I haven't worn one since my BB days and now that I know that Haig had British servicemen shot for cowardice in WWI I won't wear one since any money deposited in the tin goes to charities linked to him.

That said, won't stop me respecting the Armed Forces and what they have given. Truly brave men.

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No Glory: The Real History Of World War 1


Video


Historian Neil Faulkner on the First World War and how political leaders like David Cameron and Michael Gove are trying to rehabillitate as a "just and noble" cause, with the intention of justifying today's wars.




edit: he talks about women struggling to get the vote at one point but fails to mention that men only only got the vote 10 years earlier...in 1918 I believe.

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Sky Sports News ran a video last night of people from the forces that went to the England training camp to stand with them while they observed the 2 minutes silence. The whole thing is becoming a circus. I can understand having them at a game but why the fcuk do they need to go to a training camp and why the fcuk do they have to show it on the news. What next, am I going to have a squaddie standing by my desk next year?!

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Bateman nails it again. http://derekbateman.co.uk/

He certainly does...

The machine gun killed more soldiers overall and death was frequently instant or not drawn out and soldiers could find some shelter in bomb/shell craters from gunfire. A poison gas attack meant soldiers having to put on crude gas masks and if these were unsuccessful, an attack could leave a victim in agony for days and weeks before he finally succumbed to his injuries.

876950240.jpg

On the Western Front the lucky ones were killed instantly. The majority of wounds were mainly from artillery. Steel shrapnel from exploding shells was white hot and travelled at two times the speed of sound. It literally tore men to pieces.

Among the most tragic of injuries were horrific shrapnel wounds to the face, in thousands of cases the entire face was torn off and the men were unable to see, hear, speak or drink. These injuries were so severe that returning soldiers were unrecognizable to their families. Most found it impossible to assimilate into civilian and were left destitute. Thousands committed suicide.

No plastic surgey back then, it was all developed in response to these injuries so most were just left to suffer and die.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/zxw42hv

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I want to wear a poppy, I really do.

But I'm loathe to do it.

The poppy fascism that has gathered steam over the past few years is getting to a point now where people will soon start being abused in the street because they don't have one on. Now if this was purely an attempt to really remember those that died then I wouldn't have an issue with it, but I believe government is using Remembrance Day and the poppy to blur the lines between remembering those who died, supporting the current troops and supporting conflict - you can't denounce the last of these without someone conflating it with a lack of support for the troops, or disrespecting the dead. It's becoming an event, like Easter. But it feels forced. As if someone is driving it. Oh wait ...

This whole fetishisation of the armed forces is a very ugly (American-esque) trait and to my mind this pressure to conform is a deliberate attempt to shame people into not criticising the catastrophic Iraqistan project.

That's a good post.

No chance I will be wearing one. I respect and am thankful for those civilians that were forced to fight the wars for others in World War 1 and 2, but the british army's action since then are nothing to be proud of. Furthermore, rightly or wrongly, to me it is a symbol of right wing Britain of which I want to have no part what so ever.

That isn't.

What you really mean is: "...it is a symbol of Britain of which I want to have no part what so ever."

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World War I


In August 1914, at the start of the First World War, Admiral Charles Fitzgerald founded the Order of the White Feather with support from the prominent author Mrs Humphrey Ward. The organization aimed to shame men into enlisting in the British Army by persuading women to present them with a white feather if they were not wearing a uniform.[2][3]


This was joined by prominent feminists and suffragettes of the time, such as Emmeline Pankhurst and her daughter Christabel. They, in addition to handing out the feathers, also lobbied to institute an involuntary draft of men, including those who lacked votes due to being too young or not owning property.[4][5][6]


The campaign was very effective[citation needed], and spread throughout several other nations in the Empire, so much so that it started to cause problems for the government when public servants came under pressure to enlist. This prompted the Home Secretary, Reginald McKenna, to issue employees in state industries with lapel badges reading "King and Country" to indicate that they too were serving the war effort. Likewise, the Silver War Badge, given to service personnel who had been honourably discharged due to wounds or sickness, was first issued in September 1916 to prevent veterans from being challenged for not wearing uniform. The poetry from the period indicates that the campaign was not popular amongst soldiers (e.g. Wilfred Owen's Dulce et Decorum Est[citation needed]) - not least because soldiers who were home on leave could find themselves presented with the feathers.

One such was Private Ernest Atkins who was on leave from the Western Front. He was riding a tram when he was presented with a white feather by a girl sitting behind him. He smacked her across the face with his pay book saying: "Certainly I'll take your feather back to the boys at Passchendaele. I'm in civvies because people think my uniform might be lousy, but if I had it on I wouldn't be half as lousy as you." [7]


The supporters of the campaign were not easily put off. A woman who confronted a young man in a London park demanded to know why he was not in the army. "Because I am a German", he replied. He received a white feather anyway.[8]


Perhaps the most ironic use of a white feather was when one was presented to Seaman George Samson who was on his way in civilian clothes to a public reception in his honour. Samson had been awarded the Victoria Cross for gallantry in the Gallipoli campaign.[9]


Roland Gwynne, later mayor of Eastbourne (1929–1931) and lover of suspected serial killer John Bodkin Adams, received a feather from a relative. This prompted him to enlist, and he subsequently received the Distinguished Service Order for bravery.[10] The writer Compton Mackenzie, then a serving soldier, complained about the activities of the Order of the White Feather. He argued that these "idiotic young women were using white feathers to get rid of boyfriends of whom they were tired". The pacifist Fenner Brockway claimed that he received so many white feathers he had enough to make a fan.


The white feather campaign was briefly renewed during World War II.[11][12]


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  • 3 years later...

" In Glasgow, massive arms production drew tens of thousands of new workers into the cities. Landlords took the opportunity to hike rents so high that working class women, who's husbands, sons and brothers were dying at the front, were threatened with mass eviction. The women fought back, launching a rent strike and repelling landlord's with street fighting. "

Love it.

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1 hour ago, thplinth said:

Quite interesting perspective and more than a few a few parallels with the demonization of Russia & Putin we are seeing today... 

Just go and stay in russia then?? Ask the people of alsace lorraine if they were glad to be freed from tyranny. These men did not die in vain. Despite eric bogles songs. We fought as a country against tyranny. To remember and respect that is all we can do. And learn from it. Right. Back to the buckets for me. Blue collection today so no half empty bottles 😯

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