SNP leadership election

[mcguffin]

58 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Ok, will continue with it later 👍

👍My apologies in advance if you don't enjoy it.

[TDYER63]

10 minutes ago, aaid said:

Is that just you projecting your own views onto the entire former membership?

*I* think there’s likely to be lots of different reasons why people resigned, some personal, some policy driven, some personality issues.

I agree there will be more than one reason for the big drop in membership. However , given that the huge surge in membership was primarily after Indyref and the party’s promise to continue to fight for independence, I think its fair to say the lack of movement in that direction has to a large degree caused the drop  off in numbers. 

[TDYER63]

4 minutes ago, mcguffin said:

👍My apologies in advance if you don't enjoy it.

No need to apologise, its good to hear things from different angles and I appreciate any podcasts etc that are posted 😊 From the first 10 mins  I got a feeling there was an agenda behind it , but will definitely listen later and let you know after I have listened to it all. 

[aaid]

21 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I agree there will be more than one reason for the big drop in membership. However , given that the huge surge in membership was primarily after Indyref and the party’s promise to continue to fight for independence, I think its fair to say the lack of movement in that direction has to a large degree caused the drop  off in numbers. 

The fact is that no-one knows and everyone is guessing.

Maybe that no-one knows is part of the problem tbf. 

[ParisInAKilt]

5 hours ago, AlfieMoon said:

I think it’s the former rather than the latter.
 

They’ve had the accusation that promising independence/referendums is just manipulating voters into keeping them in a job (gravy train, etc., etc.). So the same accusation can’t be true when start to do the exact opposite. (ie. Not offering anything) 

Didn’t Humza say something about prioritising independence on day 1 if he’s leader? I can only speak for myself but I don’t trust a word they say anymore on independence, too much talk and no action.

[exile]

3 hours ago, AlfieMoon said:

You can’t bypass what a party do or don’t choose to put in their manifesto. Even if the party members vote for something at conference, it doesn’t force the leadership to adopt it in their manifesto. 
 

Humza is king and he’s not interested. Folk are going to have to get used to that until he is displaced, or another credible independence party come to the fore. 

You may be right according to precedent and normal circumstances. But I am not talking about normal circumstances.

Saying "you can't bypass" sounds to me like people saying "you can't make a general election a de facto referendum'.  

But I think if there was a will there would be a way.   

[scotlad]

17 hours ago, AlfieMoon said:

SNP plays longer game in bid for Scottish independence

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65425495

This sort of weak talk will be self-fulfilling in terms of the collapse of the SNP.
 

Sturgeon might not have managed to advance to a sustained majority of support for indy but the issue was front and centre so it’s fair to assume that this approach at least sustained the 45-50% polling. 
 

Stepping back from the issue only leaves an open door for the opposition to govern.  
 

It really has been a spectacular clusterfuck from the SNP. I noticed Tom Devine saying yesterday that it’s off the table for a generation. I didn’t want to accept that, but I’ve then read the linked article and realise I’m kidding myself. He’s right. 
 

The only hope is wholesale change at the SNP or some sort of alternative Indy party finding a place and credibility. 

There was a period a year or two ago where support for independence was in excess of 50%. I sensed genuine panic down south at that stage and it looked like it was just a matter of time before something happened. But then support receded back to the mid to high 40s and the whole thing just kind of fizzled out. You can take a horse to water but you cannae make it drink.

Brexit provided an unexpected opportunity but at the first election after the vote the SNP actually lost seats. 🤦‍♂️  For all that they should have played the hand they were dealt much, much better, ultimately people have to be on board.

Sadly I don't necessarily disagree with Sir Tom Devine here either but it's worth noting that his predictions regarding independence have been wide of the mark almost every time. He might be a first-rate commentator on past events but things that have yet to happen aren't his forte!

At the moment the only easy-ish route to a second referendum I can think of is via a hung parliament. Even so, I have so little faith in the competency of the current SNP leadership that I'm not convinced they'd manage that situation adequately, let alone win any actual vote.

[ParisInAKilt]

52 minutes ago, scotlad said:

There was a period a year or two ago where support for independence was in excess of 50%. I sensed genuine panic down south at that stage and it looked like it was just a matter of time before something happened. But then support receded back to the mid to high 40s and the whole thing just kind of fizzled out. You can take a horse to water but you cannae make it drink.

Brexit provided an unexpected opportunity but at the first election after the vote the SNP actually lost seats. 🤦‍♂️  For all that they should have played the hand they were dealt much, much better, ultimately people have to be on board.

Sadly I don't necessarily disagree with Sir Tom Devine here either but it's worth noting that his predictions regarding independence have been wide of the mark almost every time. He might be a first-rate commentator on past events but things that have yet to happen aren't his forte!

At the moment the only easy-ish route to a second referendum I can think of is via a hung parliament. Even so, I have so little faith in the competency of the current SNP leadership that I'm not convinced they'd manage that situation adequately, let alone win any actual vote.

Nothing happened because the snp don’t know what to do next so it just fizzles out. 

[ParisInAKilt]

Take that back, we have a strategy 

[scotlad]

48 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Nothing happened because the snp don’t know what to do next so it just fizzles out. 

So people go from flavouring independence back to flavouring the union because the SNP don't have a strategy - how does that work??

[duncan II]

1 hour ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Take that back, we have a strategy 

Jesus, get him tae fuck. I hardly post about or generally talk about independence anymore as I'm so frustrated at the lack of movement. I genuinely fear we may have blown it, and it's people like Wishart who have made it thus.

what a shite country.

[ParisInAKilt]

1 hour ago, scotlad said:

So people go from flavouring independence back to flavouring the union because the SNP don't have a strategy - how does that work??

No I think there’s a solid support for independence, not 50% if you go by the polls but not far off, but any momentum is fleeting because the snp don’t have a strategy hence why things just seem to fizzle out and nothing happens. 

[scotlad]

13 minutes ago, ParisInAKilt said:

No I think there’s a solid support for independence, not 50% if you go by the polls but not far off, but any momentum is fleeting because the snp don’t have a strategy hence why things just seem to fizzle out and nothing happens. 

With you now. 

The SNP are good at winning elections but it stops there.

51 minutes ago, duncan II said:

Jesus, get him tae fuck. I hardly post about or generally talk about independence anymore as I'm so frustrated at the lack of movement. I genuinely fear we may have blown it, and it's people like Wishart who have made it thus.

what a shite country.

He's not even hiding it anymore! 😂

I don't think we've blown it indefinitely but it might take a new generation of politicians who are genuinely focused on independence to come in and replace the careerists and the lumps of deadwood. The SNP should be a pressure group as much as a political party. 

[daviebee]

5 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Take that back, we have a strategy 

Can't wait to see that fkin idiot out on his trough-slurping erse next time.

[Caledonian Craig]

11 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Didn’t Humza say something about prioritising independence on day 1 if he’s leader? I can only speak for myself but I don’t trust a word they say anymore on independence, too much talk and no action.

What action exactly are you expecting? The options open to them is zero. This union means the only way Scotland will have a say on independence is on Westminster's say so and it is a closed shop on that front.

Maybe I am taking you too literally? Maybe you think SNP should not be talking about independence since it is unachievable in the current circumstances ie Westminster says so so end of story.

[Caledonian Craig]

9 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Nothing happened because the snp don’t know what to do next so it just fizzles out. 

Not one Scot - politician or otherwise knows or has a solution as there is not one. Sturgeon wanted to hold a defacto referendum and people were not keen on that idea. That aside Westminster tells us to piss off everytime we ask for Section 50 and that is that. There is no other option adide from UDI.

[hampden_loon2878]

13 hours ago, duncan II said:

Jesus, get him tae fuck. I hardly post about or generally talk about independence anymore as I'm so frustrated at the lack of movement. I genuinely fear we may have blown it, and it's people like Wishart who have made it thus.

what a shite country.

We are going to take a bit of pain in he GE enough pain to clear humza out, get the most competent MP’s who lose their seat to stand in the holyrood elections, KF to lead and clear out all the woke nut jobs, build the snp back up, the sturgeon era has to be eliminated from the party’s history 

[Ally Bongo]

52 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

We are going to take a bit of pain in he GE enough pain to clear humza out, get the most competent MP’s who lose their seat to stand in the holyrood elections, KF to lead and clear out all the woke nut jobs, build the snp back up, the sturgeon era has to be eliminated from the party’s history 

What the SNP are banking on, as Wishart's tweet shows, is that people will still buy into that message plus the alternative if they dont is a Brexit English Nationalist candidate

[TDYER63]

On 4/30/2023 at 11:14 AM, mcguffin said:

That's a fair take. I interpreted that as Macwhirter's dark humour (rather than him actually 'enjoying' the state we are in and makig fun of it). But I may be wrong of course.

But if you can grit your teeth, it's worth a  listen through to the end.  (The parts about the oil economy, and the Salmond trial are quite interesting).

And to be honest, there's not so many podcasts on the go at the moment that are dealing with Scottish Independence.  So I just listen to what's available. (I enjoy Lesley Riddoch's weekly podcast for example).

After listening to it I still think it is pretty biased.  Iain McWhirters own politics are very obvious, or at least what he doesnt like is pretty obvious. And by his own admission Brendan ONeill doesn’t like Nicola Sturgeon .
If I was an outsider listening to that I think I would be misled. Not necessarily because of inaccuracies, but because of things that weren’t said. It is definitely not a neutral piece of journalism IMO. But very little is these days 😞

Thanks for posting it though , despite the bias there were a lot of uncomfortable truths that people need to accept if things are to change. 

 

[TDYER63]

18 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

Take that back, we have a strategy 

FFS. He has no shame whatsoever. An arrogant twat that has an inflated sense of self importance. 
 

[mcguffin]

1 hour ago, TDYER63 said:

After listening to it I still think it is pretty biased.  Iain McWhirters own politics are very obvious, or at least what he doesnt like is pretty obvious. And by his own admission Brendan ONeill doesn’t like Nicola Sturgeon .
If I was an outsider listening to that I think I would be misled. Not necessarily because of inaccuracies, but because of things that weren’t said. It is definitely not a neutral piece of journalism IMO. But very little is these days 😞

Thanks for posting it though , despite the bias there were a lot of uncomfortable truths that people need to accept if things are to change. 

 

Thanks TDYER63. It's interesting to hear your views.

I listened to it again, and I think I have to agree with you. I like the guy, but yes, Iain Macwhirter definitely has his own biases and doesn't make much effort to be objective (e.g. it seems pretty clear he doesn't like the Greens, supports further North Sea oil exploration, and doesn't have much affinity for the Scottish Government's more progressive policies). And yes, I noticed that too when Brendan O'Neill said that he didn't like Nicola Sturgeon.  But at least, after that O'Neill let Macwhirter answer his questions with few interruptions. 

But as you say, there were some uncomfortable truths. And I did find Macwhirter's ability to summarise the historical events that have taken place in Scotland since 2014 (and before), quite impressive.

To be honest, I just found it refreshing to hear a London-based journalist, of any political persuasion, giving a pro-Indy Scot a chance to talk without being interrupted or hectored😞.




 

Edited May 1, 2023 by mcguffin

[ParisInAKilt]

12 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

What action exactly are you expecting? The options open to them is zero. This union means the only way Scotland will have a say on independence is on Westminster's say so and it is a closed shop on that front.

Maybe I am taking you too literally? Maybe you think SNP should not be talking about independence since it is unachievable in the current circumstances ie Westminster says so so end of story.

If it’s unachievable then tell voters that rather than leading them along just to get votes from nationalists at election time. “Just one more mandate to show Westminster” it’s beyond a joke now. 

[TDYER63]

2 hours ago, mcguffin said:

Thanks TDYER63. It's interesting to hear your views.

I listened to it again, and I think I have to agree with you. I like the guy, but yes, Iain Macwhirter definitely has his own biases and doesn't make much effort to be objective (e.g. it seems pretty clear he doesn't like the Greens, supports further North Sea oil exploration, and doesn't have much affinity for the Scottish Government's more progressive policies). And yes, I noticed that too when Brendan O'Neill said that he didn't like Nicola Sturgeon.  But at least, after that O'Neill let Macwhirter answer his questions with few interruptions. 

But as you say, there were some uncomfortable truths. And I did find Macwhirter's ability to summarise the historical events that have taken place in Scotland since 2014 (and before), quite impressive.

To be honest, I just found it refreshing to hear a London-based journalist, of any political persuasion, giving a pro-Indy Scot a chance to talk without being interrupted or hectored😞.




 

I would agree with much of that although I think the reason there was little interruption is because the presenter and interviewee are probably in mutual agreement about their dislike of NS. 

Couple of other things . There was a question at the end about the Scottish publics opinion of Alex Salmond and Humza Yousaf. On Salmond’s ratings , MacWhirter  simply saying the left dont like him,  then went on at some length to praise him and discuss the  the court case. He made it very obvious who he was blaming. 
He then goes on to annihilate Yousaf’s public ratings and ability .
He may be correct on Yousaf but its a lot more than the left that dont like Salmond. Infact his ratings may be as bad as Yousaf in Scotland. Which is hard for me to say as I rate Salmond highly and would have him back as FM in a shot.

Then, on the Bute House agreement and the SG bowing down to pressure from the Greens. MacWhirter says something like‘ The Greens are a pro independence party . They are going to vote for independence anyway, why give them any power’. 
That is far too simplistic and not entirely true. The Greens are a party that are pro independence but only under their terms. There is no way the SNP would have got their backing on a number of things without giving them something in return. I would say that it was a pretty naive thing to say if it wasn’t someone as experienced as Iain MacWhirter saying it. He knew what he was saying and it is misleading . 
That doesn’t mean I like the direction the Greens are taking the SNP in though. 

[TDYER63]

7 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

We are going to take a bit of pain in he GE enough pain to clear humza out, get the most competent MP’s who lose their seat to stand in the holyrood elections, KF to lead and clear out all the woke nut jobs, build the snp back up, the sturgeon era has to be eliminated from the party’s history 

In that interview above MacWhirter was saying that a by election ( Margaret Ferrier) might force him out. Not sure it would be enough. 

[Ally Bongo]

5 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

In that interview above MacWhirter was saying that a by election ( Margaret Ferrier) might force him out. Not sure it would be enough. 

It would be put down to what she did and not on him

She campaigned for half of the MPs/MSPs in both Parliaments and they threw her to the wolves like a piece of shit

She should have at least been taken back into the SNP and allowed to defend her seat