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I wouldnt be writing off Craig Gordon just yet. It will be a difficult one to come back from at his age, no doubt. But he has faced tough challenges before and come through. I wish him all the best.

As a Motherwell fan, Im pretty surprised at the positivity surrounding Liam Kelly. Im delighted we have him at club level, but Ive never been convinced he was the required level for international football. Also, anyone who thinks he is comfortable with the ball at his feet hasnt been watching us this season. His distribution has been terrible at times. A  good squad goalkeeper maybe, but I dont fancy him as our no.1.

If I was Clarke Id be begging Davy Marshall to come out of retirement for the March games. They are too important to be throwing in an untested rookie.

Edited by Judith
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1 hour ago, Judith said:

I wouldnt be writing off Craig Gordon just yet. It will be a difficult one to come back from at his age, no doubt. But he has faced tough challenges before and come through. I wish him all the best.

I share your sentiments. Really hoping he'll make a full recovery and we'll see him back on the pitch as soon as humanly possible.
(Just looked up Gianluigi Buffon. 44 and still playing--for Parma in Serie B. Shows it can be done.)

In the meantime,  Steve Clarke can try out a few replacement options and hopefully one of them shines for us.

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On 12/27/2022 at 12:04 PM, Caledonian Craig said:

We need to play our absolute best team whenever possible. Trying out a far inferior keeper is not an option. Lets say another keeper had been played against Turkey an extra cap is not going to transform him into an international class goalkeeper. Sadly, we are very thin on the ground goalkeeping-wise and there is no avoiding that fact so much so that I'd hazard a guess we will all crave Gordon gets put back into the team as soon as he is fit even if it is next year when he is in his 40s.

I don't think anyone has suggested it would, to be fair, but an inferior goalkeeper with a bit of experience is surely better than an inferior goalkeeper with none.

Given Gordon's age and his past history of injuries, not blooding a new keeper in at least one of the three friendlies we've had this calendar year is bordering on stupid.

On 12/27/2022 at 2:50 PM, mccaughey85 said:

Yeh but he made his allegiances pretty clear even though his dad is scottish and played for scotland. That to me says alot about how he feels about playing for scotland. Also having a second look at his career on wiki hes not really done much to shout about. Hes only really had 1 proper season and that was with norwich when they finished 14th in the championship.

Like you say though, he would still be a step up from the current alternatives.

A reliable goalie is vital if we want to get to the Euros. Gordon's save against Ireland, for instance, when the score was 1-1, was almost as good as a goal.

A good keeper gives the defence confidence too (remember Kazakhstan away when Scott Bain was in goal? I do, unfortunately). And let's be honest, considering our defence isn't exactly brilliant it can do with all the help it can get!

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2 hours ago, scotlad said:

I don't think anyone has suggested it would, to be fair, but an inferior goalkeeper with a bit of experience is surely better than an inferior goalkeeper with none.

Given Gordon's age and his past history of injuries, not blooding a new keeper in at least one of the three friendlies we've had this calendar year is bordering on stupid.

 

Experience of one or two caps makes no difference in all honesty. If a player is cut out for international football they'll show it from the get go. And no its not that stupid when we have been trying to keep momentum going at key times. I can just see the total calling for Clarke's head if he had played another goalkeeper and we got stuffed. And if Gordon is finished then its good we got the absolute maximum from him. I can see us lamenting his loss when we try to make do without him in the coming matches.

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5 hours ago, scotlad said:

I don't think anyone has suggested it would, to be fair, but an inferior goalkeeper with a bit of experience is surely better than an inferior goalkeeper with none.

Given Gordon's age and his past history of injuries, not blooding a new keeper in at least one of the three friendlies we've had this calendar year is bordering on stupid.

Like you say though, he would still be a step up from the current alternatives.

A reliable goalie is vital if we want to get to the Euros. Gordon's save against Ireland, for instance, when the score was 1-1, was almost as good as a goal.

A good keeper gives the defence confidence too (remember Kazakhstan away when Scott Bain was in goal? I do, unfortunately). And let's be honest, considering our defence isn't exactly brilliant it can do with all the help it can get!

No thank you. 

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23 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Experience of one or two caps makes no difference in all honesty. If a player is cut out for international football they'll show it from the get go. And no its not that stupid when we have been trying to keep momentum going at key times. I can just see the total calling for Clarke's head if he had played another goalkeeper and we got stuffed. And if Gordon is finished then its good we got the absolute maximum from him. I can see us lamenting his loss when we try to make do without him in the coming matches.

Experience and caps matters in goals. 

I don’t know why you’re defending the playing of Gordon in every friendly when as far as I can see it the rest of the supporters on here agree it’s obvious we should have given another goalie some experience in them.

 

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On 12/31/2022 at 4:32 PM, Caledonian Craig said:

Experience of one or two caps makes no difference in all honesty. If a player is cut out for international football they'll show it from the get go. And no its not that stupid when we have been trying to keep momentum going at key times. I can just see the total calling for Clarke's head if he had played another goalkeeper and we got stuffed. And if Gordon is finished then its good we got the absolute maximum from him. I can see us lamenting his loss when we try to make do without him in the coming matches.

Respectfully disagree. If someone is less able you give them a chance to improve and boost their confidence. Okay, possibly he might lose five goals embarrassingly or something - which won't do his confidence any good - but the other side of the coin is that it's better to see if someone isn't up to it in a friendly.

No reasonable person would be calling for Clarke's head if he lost a friendly but there might be more than a few howls of derision if we go into a qualifier with an untested keeper who fucks up badly. At the moment it looks highly likely that we will be going into the qualifiers with an untested keeper; I just hope he hits the ground running.

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11 hours ago, scotlad said:

Respectfully disagree. If someone is less able you give them a chance to improve and boost their confidence. Okay, possibly he might lose five goals embarrassingly or something - which won't do his confidence any good - but the other side of the coin is that it's better to see if someone isn't up to it in a friendly.

No reasonable person would be calling for Clarke's head if he lost a friendly but there might be more than a few howls of derision if we go into a qualifier with an untested keeper who fucks up badly. At the moment it looks highly likely that we will be going into the qualifiers with an untested keeper; I just hope he hits the ground running.

Well we shall agree to disagree. One cap's experience is going to make no difference to whether the player has the ability to play at international level. Whoever starts the qualifiers in goals it is a given that all of the fans will be lamenting not having Gordon there which says a lot. Unless, of course, Clarke could persuade McGregor to come out of retirement.

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Looking through the Scottish Premiership as well as the EPL & Championship I can't believe just how few Scottish goalkeepers there are.
The fact that even at a domestic level, only 5 of 12 teams have a Scots keeper is crazy and 2 of those are Marshall & McGregor who're retired.
In the EPL there's Villa's 3rd choice Jed Steer who qualifies and the championship only has Jordan Archer who finds himself as backup at QPR, Robbie Hemfrey who's 3rd choice at Rotherham and of course Gunn who's previously made his feelings clear.
It looks like it'll be a straight battle between Clark & Kelly for the number 1 shirt in March with McCrorie as the backup unless someone discovers they've got a Scottish grandparent between now and then.

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On 1/2/2023 at 8:32 AM, Caledonian Craig said:

Well we shall agree to disagree. One cap's experience is going to make no difference to whether the player has the ability to play at international level. Whoever starts the qualifiers in goals it is a given that all of the fans will be lamenting not having Gordon there which says a lot. Unless, of course, Clarke could persuade McGregor to come out of retirement.

For most Scots, playing for your country is a big deal. Giving a player a first cap in a game that doesnt matter, gives them the opportunity to take all the emotion out of it, get that hurdle out of the way and let them focus on their football when it really matters.

Its the reason teams often get to Cup Finals and the game passes them by and why young players (on the whole) get better with age.

Experience matters.

Not saying any of the reserve goalies should have played instead of Gordon. He is our best keeper and I wouldnt deny him caps. But Clarke could have and should have given them 45 mins in at least one of the 3 games.

Edited by Judith
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Like everyone else obviously gutted for Gordon.

    Think our other 2 top keepers are both well past their best so unless Gunn is approached & excepts we are probably stuck with a group of slightly above average journeyman for the foreseeable future I'm afraid.

    Of the bunch I prefer Clarke but let's see how he performs now he is a regular at hearts.  It worries me that he was available for free & nobody at championship level in England seemed to fancy him.

 As for Gunn well it may depend on what his reaction was at the time he was asked previously. If he totally dismissed it then I'm sure Steve Clarke is aware & probably won't approach him again , if it was a case of him saying his first choice is England & he wants to wait that's a different matter, his career has somewhat stagnated so there's a very decent chance he would change his mind if asked again.i 

  No disrespect to the Gunn haters on here but guys surely you realise qualifying for international tournaments can be decided on very fine margins & having someone above average in goals is crucial & could be the difference.

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40 minutes ago, theabsentee said:

Like everyone else obviously gutted for Gordon.

    Think our other 2 top keepers are both well past their best so unless Gunn is approached & excepts we are probably stuck with a group of slightly above average journeyman for the foreseeable future I'm afraid.

    Of the bunch I prefer Clarke but let's see how he performs now he is a regular at hearts.  It worries me that he was available for free & nobody at championship level in England seemed to fancy him.

 As for Gunn well it may depend on what his reaction was at the time he was asked previously. If he totally dismissed it then I'm sure Steve Clarke is aware & probably won't approach him again , if it was a case of him saying his first choice is England & he wants to wait that's a different matter, his career has somewhat stagnated so there's a very decent chance he would change his mind if asked again.i 

  No disrespect to the Gunn haters on here but guys surely you realise qualifying for international tournaments can be decided on very fine margins & having someone above average in goals is crucial & could be the difference.

His first choice is england and he wants to wait. Have some self respect for f.. ks sake. You should be ashamed of yourself coming out with that crap. We want players commited to SCOTLAND.. not characters who want to use us as a back up route into International football when all other options have fallen through for them. 

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57 minutes ago, theabsentee said:

 

  No disrespect to the Gunn haters on here but guys surely you realise qualifying for international tournaments can be decided on very fine margins & having someone above average in goals is crucial & could be the difference.

Can you please list what Gunn has done to make you cream yourself over him?

He is 28 and has a mere 122 first team appearances to his name with only 25% of those in the top flight. In short very inexperienced for one in his late 20s. And on top of that he has already twice turned his back on Scotland.

Even if he were to make himself available for us I certainly would not see him as anything above the likes of Clark and Kelly both of whom have much more club experience than Gunn and both have European experience which Gunn does not.

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5 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Can you please list what Gunn has done to make you cream yourself over him?

He is 28 and has a mere 122 first team appearances to his name with only 25% of those in the top flight. In short very inexperienced for one in his late 20s. And on top of that he has already twice turned his back on Scotland.

Even if he were to make himself available for us I certainly would not see him as anything above the likes of Clark and Kelly both of whom have much more club experience than Gunn and both have European experience which Gunn does not.

100% correct. Ignoring the fact that he doesn't want to play for us(unbelievably some can) what has he ever done in his career that makes you think he should be put at the front of the queue? Ordinary sums his career stats up. 

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I think Clarke will give Zander Clarke and Kelly a chance to stake their claim. Would be a kick in the teeth for every Scottish keeper if he calls up Gunn and makes him number one considering he has declined us in the past. Wouldn’t be surprised if he called up an old head like McLaughlin too. 

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42 minutes ago, bigfingers said:

I think Clarke will give Zander Clarke and Kelly a chance to stake their claim. Would be a kick in the teeth for every Scottish keeper if he calls up Gunn and makes him number one considering he has declined us in the past. Wouldn’t be surprised if he called up an old head like McLaughlin too. 

Will be more than dissapointed if he doesn't give the keepers that are wating for a chance to prove themselves their place in the team and instead brings in that arsehole Gunn. It can only be hoped that Clarke has enough self respect to ignore Gunn and end the topic once and for all. 

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3 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Can you please list what Gunn has done to make you cream yourself over him?

He is 28 and has a mere 122 first team appearances to his name with only 25% of those in the top flight. In short very inexperienced for one in his late 20s. And on top of that he has already twice turned his back on Scotland.

Even if he were to make himself available for us I certainly would not see him as anything above the likes of Clark and Kelly both of whom have much more club experience than Gunn and both have European experience which Gunn does not.

He's 26 (27 later this month), the same age as Kelly and nearly four years younger than Clark. According to Soccerbase he's made 22 EPL appearances to date, which isn't great but it's still 22 more than Clark and Kelly have made between them.

Kelly made less than 20 appearances for QPR in the English Championship before losing his place and Clark was a free agent for several months before Hearts signed him (as second choice to Craig Gordon). They have both played in the early stages of European competitions but frankly their exploits there are nothing to get excited about.

No one is saying that Angus Gunn is Lev Yashin reincarnated but he would, IMO, be an upgrade on the current alternatives. However, I'd be surprised if Steve Clarke approached him and even more surprised if he agreed to play for us, so this whole debate might be academic.

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38 minutes ago, scotlad said:

He's 26 (27 later this month), the same age as Kelly and nearly four years younger than Clark. According to Soccerbase he's made 22 EPL appearances to date, which isn't great but it's still 22 more than Clark and Kelly have made between them.

Kelly made less than 20 appearances for QPR in the English Championship before losing his place and Clark was a free agent for several months before Hearts signed him (as second choice to Craig Gordon). They have both played in the early stages of European competitions but frankly their exploits there are nothing to get excited about.

No one is saying that Angus Gunn is Lev Yashin reincarnated but he would, IMO, be an upgrade on the current alternatives. However, I'd be surprised if Steve Clarke approached him and even more surprised if he agreed to play for us, so this whole debate might be academic.

Sincerely hope this debate is academic. Would be more than dissapointed if Clarke goes anywhere near him again. Scotland should never go crawling to anybody.. especially a tit like Gunn. He's had his chance to play for us and turned us down at least twice. No more. 

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6 hours ago, thesaint said:

His first choice is england and he wants to wait. Have some self respect for f.. ks sake. You should be ashamed of yourself coming out with that crap. We want players commited to SCOTLAND.. not characters who want to use us as a back up route into International football when all other options have fallen through for them. 

🤣 So every player that has played for us over the years having qualified some thru as far back as the grandparent rule has lacked commitment? Let's start with Adams from the current squad for starters & I can't be bothered thinking about the numerous others. Ffs we want to win games & qualify for major tournaments & the guys dad is actually Scottish & is better than what we have! Every other international nation in this situation would be asking the question , that's the reality whether you like it or not.

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6 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Can you please list what Gunn has done to make you cream yourself over him?

He is 28 and has a mere 122 first team appearances to his name with only 25% of those in the top flight. In short very inexperienced for one in his late 20s. And on top of that he has already twice turned his back on Scotland.

Even if he were to make himself available for us I certainly would not see him as anything above the likes of Clark and Kelly both of whom have much more club experience than Gunn and both have European experience which Gunn does not.

I'm certainly not creaming myself over his qualities ,I would much rather have Gordon but the guy is only 26 & had transfer fees over £14million valued on him . Much as I like Zander Clark it was only a few months ago he was available for free & nobody at the level Gunn plays at wanted him. Liam Kelly was released by QPR after failing to impress at championship level.

 Nobody seriously could say that Gunn isn't currently higher thought of in the game than anyone else we have.

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1 hour ago, theabsentee said:

🤣 So every player that has played for us over the years having qualified some thru as far back as the grandparent rule has lacked commitment? Let's start with Adams from the current squad for starters & I can't be bothered thinking about the numerous others. Ffs we want to win games & qualify for major tournaments & the guys dad is actually Scottish & is better than what we have! Every other international nation in this situation would be asking the question , that's the reality whether you like it or not.

No.How many of them have turned us down on numerous occasions over the years though?He can stay with england as far as i'm concerned.

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2 hours ago, theabsentee said:

🤣 So every player that has played for us over the years having qualified some thru as far back as the grandparent rule has lacked commitment? Let's start with Adams from the current squad for starters & I can't be bothered thinking about the numerous others. Ffs we want to win games & qualify for major tournaments & the guys dad is actually Scottish & is better than what we have! Every other international nation in this situation would be asking the question , that's the reality whether you like it or not.

Spot on, particularly the last sentence.

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11 hours ago, theabsentee said:

I'm certainly not creaming myself over his qualities ,I would much rather have Gordon but the guy is only 26 & had transfer fees over £14million valued on him . Much as I like Zander Clark it was only a few months ago he was available for free & nobody at the level Gunn plays at wanted him. Liam Kelly was released by QPR after failing to impress at championship level.

 Nobody seriously could say that Gunn isn't currently higher thought of in the game than anyone else we have.

So your only stat you are going on is that he has been valued at £14 million. All that is though is a sad indictment on the over-inflated transfer fees within the sport especially if shopping at big clubs. You are correct he is 26 but still nearer 30 than 20 and with so few club games (123) and far fewer at top flight level and no European experience. Liam Kelly is virtually the same age with more club experience, more top flight experience, more European experience plus capped at junior international levels. Zander Clark, a little older, with even more club experience with the vast majority at top flight, plus European experience and has spent a long time in several Scotland squads so is well integrated into the squad.

Gunn has turned his back on Scotland TWICE and shown NO commitment to us. The players who qualified for us through grandparent rule at least chose to represent us and some have put in many years of service. With the fact he turned his back on us twice how many times if he were to say yes would he be prone to calling off sick from squads given he has shown the trait of lack of committing to us?

 

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