craig gordon

[Caledonian Craig]

And also people here are assuming Gunn even wants to be asked and wants to say yes. Going on hard core evidence he is fully committed to England.

He chose England as his country to represent and why shouldn't he? After all he was born there and lived there all of his life.

He has represented England throughout his career at u-16, u-17, u-19, u-20 and u-21 level.

When Alex McLeish approached him about switching to Scotland he said no.

He went on to train with Southgate's England 2018 World Cup squad.

Unless you are blind you can see where his allegiances have always laid and always will.

[Bzzzz]

On 12/31/2022 at 8:53 AM, Judith said:

 

If I was Clarke Id be begging Davy Marshall to come out of retirement for the March games. They are too important to be throwing in an untested rookie.

He was pretty rubbish on Monday in the derby, his positioning was awful for Hearts' glorious 3rd goal. 

[Bzzzz]

15 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

And also people here are assuming Gunn even wants to be asked and wants to say yes. Going on hard core evidence he is fully committed to England.

He chose England as his country to represent and why shouldn't he? After all he was born there and lived there all of his life.

He has represented England throughout his career at u-16, u-17, u-19, u-20 and u-21 level.

When Alex McLeish approached him about switching to Scotland he said no.

He went on to train with Southgate's England 2018 World Cup squad.

Unless you are blind you can see where his allegiances have always laid and always will.

If he's English he's English. Leave him there. TBH I'd rather have Craig Gordon with a broken leg than go grovelling to someone who isn't Scottish. 

[csinclair]

I think it's pretty much nailed on it's going to be Clark or Kelly playing in March with the other as backup and McCrorie picked as 3rd choice over McLaughlin because of his age (a reason Clarke has given in the past).

If any keeper suddenly did realise they qualify and put themselves forward, it'd be a snide move from Clarke to throw them straight in over the guys who've been turning up to play backup to Gordon

Edited January 4, 2023 by csinclair

[scotlad]

3 hours ago, csinclair said:

I think it's pretty much nailed on it's going to be Clark or Kelly playing in March with the other as backup and McCrorie picked as 3rd choice over McLaughlin because of his age (a reason Clarke has given in the past).

If any keeper suddenly did realise they qualify and put themselves forward, it'd be a snide move from Clarke to throw them straight in over the guys who've been turning up to play backup to Gordon

It is a bit, but I don't think it really matters. If this hypothetical goalie is better than Clark, Kelly or McCrorie he should start. It's professional international football we're talking about here, not weans football where you give the fat kid a run out because he turns up on time for training every week.

For me, the fact the third choice goalie from the second best team in Scotland is even in contention to feature in a Scotland squad underlines how desperate the situation is.

[scotlad]

6 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

And also people here are assuming Gunn even wants to be asked and wants to say yes. Going on hard core evidence he is fully committed to England.

He chose England as his country to represent and why shouldn't he? After all he was born there and lived there all of his life.

He has represented England throughout his career at u-16, u-17, u-19, u-20 and u-21 level.

When Alex McLeish approached him about switching to Scotland he said no.

He went on to train with Southgate's England 2018 World Cup squad.

Unless you are blind you can see where his allegiances have always laid and always will.

That's why I'd be very surprised if he agreed to play for us.

Then again, it does happen. Matt Kennedy played at every level for Scotland short of the full national side and he now plays international football for Northern Ireland.

[Bzzzz]

18 minutes ago, scotlad said:

That's why I'd be very surprised if he agreed to play for us.

Then again, it does happen. Matt Kennedy played at every level for Scotland short of the full national side and he now plays international football for Northern Ireland.

We should have more self respect than sniffing about other country's rejects because they're eligible. Embarrassing. 

[Caledonian Craig]

2 hours ago, scotlad said:

That's why I'd be very surprised if he agreed to play for us.

Then again, it does happen. Matt Kennedy played at every level for Scotland short of the full national side and he now plays international football for Northern Ireland.

But Matt Kennedy was a different breed. Evidently, he jumped ship when it was clear he was not going to be capped by us to play for a country not of his birth. Gunn has stuck rigidly to his loyalty to England. Like Kennedy he has played at junior levels for his country but unlike Kennedy when a country not of his birth made him an offer Gunn refused remaining loyal to his country.

[thesaint]

2 hours ago, Bzzzz said:

We should have more self respect than sniffing about other country's rejects because they're eligible. Embarrassing. 

My point precisely. The lack of self respect is astonishing. 

[Kirk]

7 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

But Matt Kennedy was a different breed. Evidently, he jumped ship when it was clear he was not going to be capped by us to play for a country not of his birth. Gunn has stuck rigidly to his loyalty to England. Like Kennedy he has played at junior levels for his country but unlike Kennedy when a country not of his birth made him an offer Gunn refused remaining loyal to his country.

Kennedy was born in Belfast 

[mccaughey85]

8 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

But Matt Kennedy was a different breed. Evidently, he jumped ship when it was clear he was not going to be capped by us to play for a country not of his birth. Gunn has stuck rigidly to his loyalty to England. Like Kennedy he has played at junior levels for his country but unlike Kennedy when a country not of his birth made him an offer Gunn refused remaining loyal to his country.

There is arguably a level of honour in angus gunns decisions. I just find it strange that hes so vehemently stuck with wanting to play for england despite his father being a scottish international and he also must have known that theres a strong chance he wouldnt make it with england even when he was a young upcoming goalkeeper and especially the last few years where he must know for sure hes unlikely to ever play for england.

If he has any desire to play international football then i would have expected him to make himself available this last few years and especially now. Hes basically guaranteed the starting spot if he wants it.

Not sure i want him playing for us as i think its terrible that someone like him(basically half scottish) never even considered playing for us. His dad has alot to answer for as well. 

[theabsentee]

8 hours ago, thesaint said:

My point precisely. The lack of self respect is astonishing. 

I will apologize for wanting to see us win.  

[theabsentee]

26 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

There is arguably a level of honour in angus gunns decisions. I just find it strange that hes so vehemently stuck with wanting to play for england despite his father being a scottish international and he also must have known that theres a strong chance he wouldnt make it with england even when he was a young upcoming goalkeeper and especially the last few years where he must know for sure hes unlikely to ever play for england.

If he has any desire to play international football then i would have expected him to make himself available this last few years and especially now. Hes basically guaranteed the starting spot if he wants it.

Not sure i want him playing for us as i think its terrible that someone like him(basically half scottish) never even considered playing for us. His dad has alot to answer for as well. 

Mate I'm not going to post replies to everyone on this subject so don't take anything I write personal.

  I don't think it's terrible he hasn't made himself available as of yet. Reality is he was born in England , English mother, probably spent the odd long weekend or 2 in Scotland visiting his grandparents during his youth & his Dad whereas Is Scottish doesn't feel he has to drum it into his kids that they are. Totally normal for millions of mixed nationality kids.

  The guy grew up supporting & wanting to play for the country of his birth England that's again totally understandable surely🤔

 This does not make him anti Scottish or a traitor!!! 

 He was good enough to play at all levels for his first choice through youth groups so why would he have considered switching to Scotland at that time? 

   I think now the reality is we need him more than he needs us so let's see if he has enough feeling for his dad's birth land , if that's so then Clarke will know it & he will be chosen even if not initially as first choice due to Clarke's loyalty to the other no disrespect probably lesser quality keepers.

  This is the reality simple as...

  

 

[mccaughey85]

7 minutes ago, theabsentee said:

Mate I'm not going to post replies to everyone on this subject so don't take anything I write personal.

  I don't think it's terrible he hasn't made himself available as of yet. Reality is he was born in England , English mother, probably spent the odd long weekend or 2 in Scotland visiting his grandparents during his youth & his Dad whereas Is Scottish doesn't feel he has to drum it into his kids that they are. Totally normal for millions of mixed nationality kids.

  The guy grew up supporting & wanting to play for the country of his birth England that's again totally understandable surely🤔

 This does not make him anti Scottish or a traitor!!! 

 He was good enough to play at all levels for his first choice through youth groups so why would he have considered switching to Scotland at that time? 

   I think now the reality is we need him more than he needs us so let's see if he has enough feeling for his dad's birth land , if that's so then Clarke will know it & he will be chosen even if not initially as first choice due to Clarke's loyalty to the other no disrespect probably lesser quality keepers.

  This is the reality simple as...

  

 

Tbh i aint totally against him playing foŕ us and i understand he feels english and wanted to play for them. I just think hes either being a little deluded or really isnt keen on scotland for some reason(maybe father issues?). 

I suppose he wouldnt be the first guy to play for us who initially wanted to play for england.  A fact that a few on here will conveniently ignore when it comes to angus gunn. 

I think the problem ppl have with gunn is that his dad was a scottish international and therefore ppl feel he should of been our first choice or there should have been a huge dilemma for him to make. If he was grandparent rule guy and had no footballing pedigree then there would probably be no problem with his previous rejections of us. Kinda like james morrison or che adams. 

I think most of us feel the guy should of made us our first choice or he should have been in our squads the last couple years once it became clear he was unlikely to make it with england. The fact its taking this long for a guy whos father was a scottish international to decide to come play for us is a massive negative to some ppl.

Also looking at his career hes really not done much to be impressed by. One full season at norwich when they finished 14th is about it. Hes about to turn 27 as well so hes not exactly young anymore. Personally i think he might not be much better than someone like zander clark or mclaughlin. Looking at clarks career hes had 8 or 9 full seasons playing consistently. Having watched some of his videos on youtube the guys a good shot stopper and i think if he does well at hearts then he might be worthy of a chance to make the no1 jersey his.

Maybe some st johnstone fans can tell us wether clarks worth a go?

[Bzzzz]

5 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Tbh i aint totally against him playing foŕ us and i understand he feels english and wanted to play for them. I just think hes either being a little deluded or really isnt keen on scotland for some reason(maybe father issues?). 

I suppose he wouldnt be the first guy to play for us who initially wanted to play for england.  A fact that a few on here will conveniently ignore when it comes to angus gunn. 

I think the problem ppl have with gunn is that his dad was a scottish international and therefore ppl feel he should of been our first choice or there should have been a huge dilemma for him to make. If he was grandparent rule guy and had no footballing pedigree then there would probably be no problem with his previous rejections of us. Kinda like james morrison or che adams. 

I think most of us feel the guy should of made us our first choice or he should have been in our squads the last couple years once it became clear he was unlikely to make it with england. The fact its taking this long for a guy whos father was a scottish international to decide to come play for us is a massive negative to some ppl.

Also looking at his career hes really not done much to be impressed by. One full season at norwich when they finished 14th is about it. Hes about to turn 27 as well so hes not exactly young anymore. Personally i think he might not be much better than someone like zander clark or mclaughlin. Looking at clarks career hes had 8 or 9 full seasons playing consistently. Having watched some of his videos on youtube the guys a good shot stopper and i think if he does well at hearts then he might be worthy of a chance to make the no1 jersey his.

Maybe some st johnstone fans can tell us wether clarks worth a go?

If Gunn feels English then that's fine, he can be English if he wants, we shouldn't be whoring the jersey out to someone who doesn't even consider themselves Scottish, I know there's eligibility and it's been done countless times but my attitude towards it won't change. If he feels English then he can go play for England, good luck to him, if he's not good enough for England then tough tits.

Zander Clark's got a real chance to make a play for the jersey as he's a stick on for the rest of the season at Hearts, his first state v the wee team was a pretty good one with some great stops, time will tell but he certainly looked like he had great potential at St Johnstone, we'll have to wait and see! hopefully he's been learning from big Craig and will continue to do so.

[Caledonian Craig]

9 hours ago, theabsentee said:

 

  I don't think it's terrible he hasn't made himself available as of yet. Reality is he was born in England , English mother, probably spent the odd long weekend or 2 in Scotland visiting his grandparents during his youth & his Dad whereas Is Scottish doesn't feel he has to drum it into his kids that they are. Totally normal for millions of mixed nationality kids.

  The guy grew up supporting & wanting to play for the country of his birth England that's again totally understandable surely🤔

 This does not make him anti Scottish or a traitor!!! 

 He was good enough to play at all levels for his first choice through youth groups so why would he have considered switching to Scotland at that time? 

   I think now the reality is we need him more than he needs us so let's see if he has enough feeling for his dad's birth land , if that's so then Clarke will know it & he will be chosen even if not initially as first choice due to Clarke's loyalty to the other no disrespect probably lesser quality keepers.

  This is the reality simple as...

  

 

On your point the terrible thing is more from Scots expecting/wanting him to turn his back on his country of birth - England. A country he was born in, took his first steps in, utter his first words in, went to school in, grew up in, made English mates in and plied his trade in and is his home. Not everyone is a Judas you know. I applaud him for having morals - refreshing.

We can agree on is that he is not a traitor but people on here seem to want him to become one. And true he should never have thought about switching allegiances perhaps because he has an unbreakable bond to England. Good on him for displaying that loyalty.

And sorry but why would we need him when he has played less top flight games than keepers available to us. If he is so shit hot I await an EPL club snapping him up in this transfer window - but I won't hold my breath.

Lets do Gunn the decent thing and leave him to get on with his career in his homeland and stop presuming he is a Judas.

 

 

[scotlad]

On 1/4/2023 at 1:50 PM, Bzzzz said:

We should have more self respect than sniffing about other country's rejects because they're eligible. Embarrassing. 

Not as embarrassing as being so hard up for goalkeepers that we're selecting second and third choice goalies from SPFL clubs.

21 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

But Matt Kennedy was a different breed. Evidently, he jumped ship when it was clear he was not going to be capped by us to play for a country not of his birth. Gunn has stuck rigidly to his loyalty to England. Like Kennedy he has played at junior levels for his country but unlike Kennedy when a country not of his birth made him an offer Gunn refused remaining loyal to his country.

He isn't really. Gunn is maybe, at best, currently fifth in line to be England goalkeeper; it's rare for the goalkeeping position to be rotated and he's behind the likes of Henderson and Ramsdale, who are both younger and in Ramsdale's case playing for the club who are in pole position to win the EPL. Gunn, on the other hand, is playing for a mid-table Championship side and hasn't featured in the England set-up for several years. In short, he appears to be off the radar as far as England are concerned, which is the same position Kennedy found himself in in respect to Scotland.

I don't know if Kennedy was approached by Northern Ireland and rejected a call-up before changing his mind but even if he did it's of no material consequence; all that matters is his final decision.

[Caledonian Craig]

Just now, scotlad said:

 

He isn't really. Gunn is maybe, at best, currently fifth in line to be England goalkeeper; it's rare for the goalkeeping position to be rotated and he's behind the likes of Henderson and Ramsdale, who are both younger and in Ramsdale's case playing for the club who are in pole position to win the EPL. Gunn, on the other hand, is playing for a mid-table Championship side and hasn't featured in the England set-up for several years. In short, he appears to be off the radar as far as England are concerned, which is the same position Kennedy found himself in in respect to Scotland.

 

You do realise, in this world, that some footballers do have morals and loyalty. You do a distinct disservice to Gunn assuming or presuming he will opt to play for a country not of his birth. He has been asked at least once, as far as we know, and probably at least one more time to represent Scotland and he turned it down. And this even when (possibly) his own dad has been bending his ear about it. Yet he remains dedicated to England and there is not an ounce of evidence to suggest otherwise. I am hoping Clarke is concentrating on the real options - the goalkeepers who have pulled on the Scotland jersey before at junior levels and turned up for squads as back up to Gordon even though a cap was unlikely.

[ProudScot]

11 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

You do realise, in this world, that some footballers do have morals and loyalty. You do a distinct disservice to Gunn assuming or presuming he will opt to play for a country not of his birth. He has been asked at least once, as far as we know, and probably at least one more time to represent Scotland and he turned it down. And this even when (possibly) his own dad has been bending his ear about it. Yet he remains dedicated to England and there is not an ounce of evidence to suggest otherwise. I am hoping Clarke is concentrating on the real options - the goalkeepers who have pulled on the Scotland jersey before at junior levels and turned up for squads as back up to Gordon even though a cap was unlikely.

Loyalty to England usually lasts until the hope of being capped is gone, as we have seen numerous times before. 

Not saying I’m advocating for Gunn, however, usually the above is how it goes with English players who become Scottish 

[Caledonian Craig]

2 minutes ago, ProudScot said:

Loyalty to England usually lasts until the hope of being capped is gone, as we have seen numerous times before. 

Not saying I’m advocating for Gunn, however, usually the above is how it goes with English players who become Scottish 

There are an equal number we have tried poaching without success just that we tend to want to forget them. Even in recent times what happened to those being touted in Ashley Barnes and Tino Livramento?

[scotlad]

3 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

You do realise, in this world, that some footballers do have morals and loyalty. You do a distinct disservice to Gunn assuming or presuming he will opt to play for a country not of his birth. He has been asked at least once, as far as we know, and probably at least one more time to represent Scotland and he turned it down. And this even when (possibly) his own dad has been bending his ear about it. Yet he remains dedicated to England and there is not an ounce of evidence to suggest otherwise. I am hoping Clarke is concentrating on the real options - the goalkeepers who have pulled on the Scotland jersey before at junior levels and turned up for squads as back up to Gordon even though a cap was unlikely.

I've already said, I don't expect him either to be asked to play for us or to accept a call-up in the unlikely event he is asked. Those are the only assumptions I'm making.

My view on Gunn is that he's a better goalkeeper than Zander Clark and Liam Kelly and it would strengthen our team if he did decide to play for us - that's it.

And if he did, that wouldn't make him a "Judas" or a "traitor" to England anymore than Jason Cummings or David Wotherspoon are "traitors" to Scotland; FFS it's professional football we're talking about here, not war. 😂 No one is going to die because someone has decided to play for football for a different team! When you start using language like that you're losing a sense of proportion.

[Caledonian Craig]

9 minutes ago, scotlad said:

I've already said, I don't expect him either to be asked to play for us or to accept a call-up in the unlikely event he is asked. Those are the only assumptions I'm making.

My view on Gunn is that he's a better goalkeeper than Zander Clark and Liam Kelly and it would strengthen our team if he did decide to play for us - that's it.

And if he did, that wouldn't make him a "Judas" or a "traitor" to England anymore than Jason Cummings or David Wotherspoon are "traitors" to Scotland; FFS it's professional football we're talking about here, not war. 😂 No one is going to die because someone has decided to play for football for a different team! When you start using language like that you're losing a sense of proportion.

Who said anything about people dying? Think it is you losing the plot as I never said any such thing.

Question for you? If Gunn is so shit hot and so much better than Clark and Kelly why has nobody on this forum been screaming for Gunn's inclusion before now? That tells me he is less than shit hot - quite a lot less.

Also it is a case of true double standards (not you but those that mentioned it before) how experience matters and Clarke should have tried other keepers out as capping them would have helped. Well Clark and Kelly have much more club experience than Gunn so another thing they have over him.

Anyways Gunn is not in the equation and its now up to Clarke to decide between Clark and Kelly. Clark will get the nod I feel as he'll have had a good run of games running up to the qualifiers beginning.

[thesaint]

On 1/4/2023 at 9:41 AM, csinclair said:

I think it's pretty much nailed on it's going to be Clark or Kelly playing in March with the other as backup and McCrorie picked as 3rd choice over McLaughlin because of his age (a reason Clarke has given in the past).

If any keeper suddenly did realise they qualify and put themselves forward, it'd be a snide move from Clarke to throw them straight in over the guys who've been turning up to play backup to Gordon

Aye that would be a great team bonding move eh! Bring in this character who has refused to play for us ahead of guys who have been willing to be in squads and playing at uner 21 level etc. It shouldn't happen and to be honest i would surprised if Clarke asked him again. 

[thesaint]

15 hours ago, theabsentee said:

I will apologize for wanting to see us win.  

An apology for wanting a guy who has made it clear that he only wants to play for england to pull on a SCOTLAND shirt would be appreciated. 

[scotlad]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Who said anything about people dying? Think it is you losing the plot as I never said any such thing.

Question for you? If Gunn is so shit hot and so much better than Clark and Kelly why has nobody on this forum been screaming for Gunn's inclusion before now? That tells me he is less than shit hot - quite a lot less.

Also it is a case of true double standards (not you but those that mentioned it before) how experience matters and Clarke should have tried other keepers out as capping them would have helped. Well Clark and Kelly have much more club experience than Gunn so another thing they have over him.

Anyways Gunn is not in the equation and its now up to Clarke to decide between Clark and Kelly. Clark will get the nod I feel as he'll have had a good run of games running up to the qualifiers beginning.

No one did - I never said they had - but using terms like "traitor" and "Judas" in this context is just silly.

I don't think Gunn is shit hot (he probably wouldn't be playing for Norwich if he was) but you don't need to be shit hot to improve on our current options (which says it all!).

I wouldn't use this place as a barometer for anything sensible but I guess no one was shouting for Gunn's inclusion because Gordon was playing well for club and country and there was no imminent crisis in the goalkeeping department. However, that's no longer the case.

As for experience, Gunn has played more games at English Championship level, where Kelly was found wanting and where no one, as far as we know, was interested in signing Clark last summer, despite the fact he could have been picked up for nothing and his wage demands, considering he was coming from St Johnstone, would likely have been fairly minimal. Gunn has also played first team football in the EPL and was deemed good enough to dislodge a Dutch international at Norwich.

But no, you're right, he isn't in the equation and I don't think he will be. I think either Clark or Kelly will start in goal in March (and possibly the rest of the campaign too). I have major doubts over their abilities though and considering they'll be playing behind a largely poor defence, in a qualifying group as tricky as ours I fear it will cost us.