Indyref 2 (2)

[ThistleWhistle]

5 hours ago, aaid said:

Do you think that kids don't pick up on what is going on in the world around them?

 

Of course but the questionnaire was given in the school environment.  I'm always accountable for my daughter as a parent whereas the school are only delegated responsibility for the time she's in their care.  

This questionnaire would step beyond the agency I'd understood to afford them and would look for immediate discussion around its motives and purpose.  

There's a big difference between 'has your child...' and 'have you' for me.  My 8 year old could read the questions but I would have genuine concerns if she could understand them given they've only just started going up in fives on a clock face.

[phart]

2 hours ago, ThistleWhistle said:

I get kids can be bullied for anything and everything but the question specifically asks 'have you' so is directly asking an 8 year old if they've experienced homophobic bullying.  

If there's a kid continually saying she wants to kiss girls and touch vaginas then that's bullying and a question 'have you ever been bullied?' would be sufficient.  It can only turn sexual once there's a sexual preference surely and when 'you' is pre pubescent it's venturing into dodgy territory.

An MSP has come out and said it was to find out if kids who've got same sex parents were getting shit for it.  If that is the case then the wording of the question was poorly devised and begs the question why not ask the parents in question if that was genuinely the info sought?  

I was just going by the logical progression presented in the post and why I felt it wasn't correct.

I can't follow your reasoning at all. If folk are throwing stones at you for being "gay", you're being bullied for being gay, if you're actually straight it doesn't mean you're not being bullied. The categorisation all lies within the intent of the bully not how accurately their perception is to reality.

Loads of gay folk say they knew they were gay when young.  You seem to be asserting that folks "sexual orientation" only manifests at puberty due to unamed hormones. I had a huge crush on a girl in my class in primary two. I was liking girls at 6 years old. I just don't think this premise is true.

 

[ParisInAKilt]

11 hours ago, ThistleWhistle said:

This questionnaire would step beyond the agency I'd understood to afford them and would look for immediate discussion around its motives and purpose.  

I’d agree with this. 

[ThistleWhistle]

 

8 hours ago, phart said:

I was just going by the logical progression presented in the post and why I felt it wasn't correct.

I can't follow your reasoning at all. If folk are throwing stones at you for being "gay", you're being bullied for being gay, if you're actually straight it doesn't mean you're not being bullied. The categorisation all lies within the intent of the bully not how accurately their perception is to reality.

Loads of gay folk say they knew they were gay when young.  You seem to be asserting that folks "sexual orientation" only manifests at puberty due to unamed hormones. I had a huge crush on a girl in my class in primary two. I was liking girls at 6 years old. I just don't think this premise is true.

 

If someone says 'gay gay gay' to my daughter I never said that wasn't bullying but don't agree adding sexuality to it.  The question is 'have you' so is the perspective of an infant.  Firstly I don't believe the perpetrator would have sufficient, or shouldn't have, knowledge to have a prejudice towards gay people for it to be homophobic in the first place.  

Secondly she's 8 so can't be sexually or romantically attracted to anyone regardless if she chases boys or girls at kiss chase or if she plays mummies and mummies or mummies and daddies.  At 8 I had a crush on a teacher and the girl in p6 with boobs but beyond a concept of kissing on the lips then immediately getting married there was no understanding- it may have been my first steps towards heterosexual in hindsight but more importantly I was still just a child at the time.

If the question was 'has your child' then I would still answer no but would understand parents answering yes because they're answering from the perspective of an adult rather than a minor.

What about if she's a specky white protestant kid and the bully's new word is 'Pakki' or 'Yid'- is she being racially bullied or the victim of antisemitism despite being neither or is she just being bullied?

If we're accepting it's suitable for 8 year olds to be asked if they've been victims of bullying around their sexuality would that not mean we have to accept 8 year olds have the capacity and capability to sexually harass each other?  If that's where we are then returning to my original point safeguarding would be my primary concern ahead of someone going 'gay gay gay' at my daughter.

 

[phart]

I'm not accepting any suitability, nor commenting on that, that's for the parents. Everything I say could be objective fact yet it doesn't mean the question should be asked.

I'm discussing the logical reasoning, it was presented in a P implies Q logical context, if P is true then Q cannot be true. I'm stating why i think that premise is false.

Bullying doesn't arise cause you have a comprehensive understanding of all aspects of what you're making the point of bullying, it arises cause of a perceived difference and then a moral judgement that the difference makes you better, them lesser. All you need is the ability to perceive a difference and then make a negative judgement based on that. That's the conditions. What conditions the bully thinks merits that moral judgement is interesting as it then builds a picture of what triggers the discrimination.

If football fans chat someone is gay is it just chanting if they're not gay. or is it homophobic chanting.

 

Anyway too much mixing of culture wars with formal logic for me it's like water and oil.

End of the day you're a parent i'm not so if i was a parent I could very well think the same. Easy for me to argue logical semantics with no skin in the game.

 

 

[TDYER63]

I am struggling to find anything on this through a google search other than the crazy Mail . I did find this in a Twitter feed by a clearly anti snp person, this is what they tweeted so I am assuming this is the worst of it. If so I am really struggling to understand the problem . Perhaps there is more though ? 
 

[TDYER63]

These are the kind of replies to the tweet. 
 

 

[ThistleWhistle]

54 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I am struggling to find anything on this through a google search other than the crazy Mail . I did find this in a Twitter feed by a clearly anti snp person, this is what they tweeted so I am assuming this is the worst of it. If so I am really struggling to understand the problem . Perhaps there is more though ? 
 

Yeah that's the one.  It specifically asks if 'you' so is specifically aimed at primary school kids so uses 'unkind' and 'laughed at' for their sexual identification as language they'd understand.  Discussing in adult terms they're quite obviously asking if they've suffered transphobic or homophobic bullying or else why sexualise the question? 

My 8 year old shouldn't be identified as anything other than a child even if she gets the piss ripped for playing football and sports gear. 

My secondary worry comes again from 'have you' and this questionnaire being filled in by a 10 year old for instance capable of a basic understanding of the question - does this even find its way home or is its intention to cut parents out of the loop?  Surely material like this should go via the parent to discuss with the child with the questions worded accordingly especially as the msp said it was to protect kids with same sex parents?

I'd be interested to know if there's a specific question if a girl has ever had a boy be unkind purely for being a girl but suspect misogyny is just chucked in under the catch all question at the top.

Only personal experience but the balance at school seems well off.  My wee lass came in a month back and said 'white people were bad because of the slave trade' yet they've not done 5 past the hour or 3 times table in P4 yet. Genuinely never thought I'd have to point out to an 8 year old all empires have had slaves, that there were African tribes complicit and although racism is a huge unquestionable factor it's the age old story of the powerful exploiting the weak before needing to tell her the big hand pointing to 2 is ten past.

I could go on Twitter and find someone wanting to smack a terf but all it proves is the world is full of arseholes and the whole rationale behind needing safeguarding and risk mitigation to protect against them.

[Orraloon]

Do folk still use analogue clocks? Do we really need to teach our kids how to use obsolete technology?

[phart]

14 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Do folk still use analogue clocks? Do we really need to teach our kids how to use obsolete technology?

modular arithmetic is still a thing for number theory and cyptography etc, although i'd lay off that till you can at least do your 12 times table.

[aaid]

16 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Do folk still use analogue clocks? Do we really need to teach our kids how to use obsolete technology?

I have an analogue face on my digital watch. 

[TDYER63]

1 hour ago, ThistleWhistle said:

Yeah that's the one.  It specifically asks if 'you' so is specifically aimed at primary school kids so uses 'unkind' and 'laughed at' for their sexual identification as language they'd understand.  Discussing in adult terms they're quite obviously asking if they've suffered transphobic or homophobic bullying or else why sexualise the question? 

My 8 year old shouldn't be identified as anything other than a child even if she gets the piss ripped for playing football and sports gear. 

My secondary worry comes again from 'have you' and this questionnaire being filled in by a 10 year old for instance capable of a basic understanding of the question - does this even find its way home or is its intention to cut parents out of the loop?  Surely material like this should go via the parent to discuss with the child with the questions worded accordingly especially as the msp said it was to protect kids with same sex parents?

I'd be interested to know if there's a specific question if a girl has ever had a boy be unkind purely for being a girl but suspect misogyny is just chucked in under the catch all question at the top.

Only personal experience but the balance at school seems well off.  My wee lass came in a month back and said 'white people were bad because of the slave trade' yet they've not done 5 past the hour or 3 times table in P4 yet. Genuinely never thought I'd have to point out to an 8 year old all empires have had slaves, that there were African tribes complicit and although racism is a huge unquestionable factor it's the age old story of the powerful exploiting the weak before needing to tell her the big hand pointing to 2 is ten past.

I could go on Twitter and find someone wanting to smack a terf but all it proves is the world is full of arseholes and the whole rationale behind needing safeguarding and risk mitigation to protect against them.

My understanding is that p1-p4 took it home to complete with parents and p5-7 in school. P5 probably is around 9 yrs though there are possibly some 8 yr olds sneaked in. 
I think this is all down to a personal interpretation of at what age schools should be introducing this sort of stuff. I personally would have no problem with my children getting this questionnaire, I think kids these days are far more worldly wise than when I was young, but totally respect the fact other parents may have an issue. Schools the world over need to play a balancing act on certain aspects of education , they are never going to please everyone, but at least we live in a country where we ARE able to voice our disapproval.
It would be interesting to know if other surveys were undertaken in respect to other forms of bullying. I would expect so, if not I would be more concerned about this, though IMO its total nonsense for folk ( not you). to suggest the SG are some sort of deviant infiltrators trying to steal your weans. 
My feelings on this survey are in no way a fan girl trying to protect the SNP. There are other things I dont agree with , the GRA stuff I am still not sure about ( don’t suppose you got any time to jot down your thoughts over xmas and NY?) , I personally think 16 yr old is too young, though that is only part of a wider problem I have on legal age limits plus I don’t know how i would feel if I was anything but heterosexual. 

I posted the Twitter thing simply as a way of highlighting the prejudice there is out there on anything that is not deemed as ‘straight’. Anyone who thinks these sort of people are in the minority are kidding themselves on. These people will be passing down their prejudices to their children and in this respect I think the questionnaire has merit. 
 

On your point about slaves, I think there is some ‘making up for the shite taught in the past’ , ie that white people were always the goodies,  but the pendulum has swung too much the other way. Two wrongs don’t make right.

[TDYER63]

1 hour ago, Orraloon said:

Do folk still use analogue clocks? Do we really need to teach our kids how to use obsolete technology?

When I was in p5 ( aye p5 , I am clearly no a smart as TW’s wee girl 😁) one of the boys on the class was struggling with telling the time. He just couldn’t seem to get it. The teacher lost her rag one day and charged up to his seat , grabbed him by the ear , and dragged him out to the front of the class , screaming at him. 
The next day the boys dad appeared, I can still remember the boys name. He barged into the classroom, grabbed the teacher by the ear and dragged her round and round the class shouting ‘ how do you like it’ . We were all just sitting there 😂 She was an absolute horrible teacher, I still remember her name too.
Dont think anything happened to the teacher or the dad afterwards ! 

[ThistleWhistle]

1 hour ago, Orraloon said:

Do folk still use analogue clocks? Do we really need to teach our kids how to use obsolete technology?

Wasn't far off of this to be honest then trying to do digital at the same time was a nightmare 'but why is 20 8 on the digital but 4 on the clock?' 

Easier discussing the nuances of the slave trade to be honest 😆 

[Orraloon]

31 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

Wasn't far off of this to be honest then trying to do digital at the same time was a nightmare 'but why is 20 8 on the digital but 4 on the clock?' 

Easier discussing the nuances of the slave trade to be honest 😆 

Just stop being a tightwad and buy her a digital watch. While you are at it, make sure it is set to 24 hour mode (the shop assistant will show you how to do it, if you are not up to it). Then she won't have to mess about with all that am/pm nonsense. 

And another thing, why didn't you teach her how to read the time before she went to school? Do parents take no responsibility for teaching their kids anything these days? How does she know what time to leave the house to get to school on time if she has no concept of time?

[Ally Bongo]

Think i was in Primary 2 or 3 when i found out Santa wasnt real walking home from School with Helen Waddell

She was in Primary 3 or 4 and i fancied her

Went off her a bit at that

[ThistleWhistle]

31 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Just stop being a tightwad and buy her a digital watch. While you are at it, make sure it is set to 24 hour mode (the shop assistant will show you how to do it, if you are not up to it). Then she won't have to mess about with all that am/pm nonsense. 

And another thing, why didn't you teach her how to read the time before she went to school? Do parents take no responsibility for teaching their kids anything these days? How does she know what time to leave the house to get to school on time if she has no concept of time?

We set an alarm on Alexa so she knows when leave the house and the school haven't brought up punctuality so presumably it's working.

Genuinely wife nailed analogue clock with her during lockdown but revisiting it and chucking in digital confused her for a while.

Christ forget watches - there's kids in her class with phones already although still a minority.

[ThistleWhistle]

1 hour ago, TDYER63 said:

My understanding is that p1-p4 took it home to complete with parents and p5-7 in school. P5 probably is around 9 yrs though there are possibly some 8 yr olds sneaked in. 
I think this is all down to a personal interpretation of at what age schools should be introducing this sort of stuff. I personally would have no problem with my children getting this questionnaire, I think kids these days are far more worldly wise than when I was young, but totally respect the fact other parents may have an issue. Schools the world over need to play a balancing act on certain aspects of education , they are never going to please everyone, but at least we live in a country where we ARE able to voice our disapproval.
It would be interesting to know if other surveys were undertaken in respect to other forms of bullying. I would expect so, if not I would be more concerned about this, though IMO its total nonsense for folk ( not you). to suggest the SG are some sort of deviant infiltrators trying to steal your weans. 
My feelings on this survey are in no way a fan girl trying to protect the SNP. There are other things I dont agree with , the GRA stuff I am still not sure about ( don’t suppose you got any time to jot down your thoughts over xmas and NY?) , I personally think 16 yr old is too young, though that is only part of a wider problem I have on legal age limits plus I don’t know how i would feel if I was anything but heterosexual. 

I posted the Twitter thing simply as a way of highlighting the prejudice there is out there on anything that is not deemed as ‘straight’. Anyone who thinks these sort of people are in the minority are kidding themselves on. These people will be passing down their prejudices to their children and in this respect I think the questionnaire has merit. 
 

On your point about slaves, I think there is some ‘making up for the shite taught in the past’ , ie that white people were always the goodies,  but the pendulum has swung too much the other way. Two wrongs don’t make right.

Apologies boss left me a hospital pass in between then last week home boss wanted painting done - my ceilings didn't pass quality control and third coat needed apparently!  

Moving jobs in a month so should be quiet next couple of weeks.

In terms of the questionnaire would you wanted warned it was happening, what's in it, notified how to exempt your child if required and what they'd do with the returns especially if your own kid is involved? 

Down south p7 is secondary school so it seemed a better arbitrary line for me - p8 is too late up here but does leave a difficult crossover in the primary school.  

 

[ThistleWhistle]

39 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Think i was in Primary 2 or 3 when i found out Santa wasnt real walking home from School with Helen Waddell

She was in Primary 3 or 4 and i fancied her

Went off her a bit at that

I must have been similar when finally caught Stacey from the year above at kiss chase.  Led me behind the old toilets but instead of getting a kiss on the lips she told me my dog hadn't gone to a farm to run free and was instead dead.

Got peace from boys chasing her for a while when I came running back blarting.  Had completely forgot about that!

[Malcolm]

4 hours ago, Orraloon said:

Do folk still use analogue clocks? Do we really need to teach our kids how to use obsolete technology?

yes, i far prefer the elegance of an analogue watch than any iwatch or some such.

[stocky]

1 minute ago, Malcolm said:

yes, i far prefer the elegance of an analogue watch than any iwatch or some such.

Would that be a watch that resides mostly in your pocket, to be examined when u put your monicle on. 🤔😉 

[TDYER63]

2 hours ago, ThistleWhistle said:

 

In terms of the questionnaire would you wanted warned it was happening, what's in it, notified how to exempt your child if required and what they'd do with the returns especially if your own kid is involved? 

Down south p7 is secondary school so it seemed a better arbitrary line for me - p8 is too late up here but does leave a difficult crossover in the primary school.  

 

Absolutely I would have wanted warned . Whilst I would be fine with the questionnaire I realise its a bit of a sensitive subject and I would expect a school to feel the same. 
From a bullying perspective I think p7 is too late, but again, I  realise everyone feels different.

2 hours ago, ThistleWhistle said:

Apologies boss left me a hospital pass in between then last week home boss wanted painting done - my ceilings didn't pass quality control and third coat needed apparently!  

 

 

Woe  betide any husband that leaves a patchy ceiling!
I am sure your domestic skills are better than my husband’s. On xmas eve there was a massive bird shit on the bathroom window so I asked him if he would  mind going out and cleaning it as we had a few people staying over xmas and I was rushed off my feet. It was dark later on and I didn’t really notice the window. Xmas day I went into the bathroom, look at the nick of this, bird shit smeared across the bottom of the window!

[Orraloon]

27 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

Absolutely I would have wanted warned . Whilst I would be fine with the questionnaire I realise its a bit of a sensitive subject and I would expect a school to feel the same. 
From a bullying perspective I think p7 is too late, but again, I  realise everyone feels different.

Woe  betide any husband that leaves a patchy ceiling!
I am sure your domestic skills are better than my husband’s. On xmas eve there was a massive bird shit on the bathroom window so I asked him if he would  mind going out and cleaning it as we had a few people staying over xmas and I was rushed off my feet. It was dark later on and I didn’t really notice the window. Xmas day I went into the bathroom, look at the nick of this, bird shit smeared across the bottom of the window!

Ooft. Toilet seat up. That must be worse than a wee bit of birdshit?

[TDYER63]

22 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Ooft. Toilet seat up. That must be worse than a wee bit of birdshit?

🙄 Orraloon, they say you need to pick your battles in life. I have long given up on ever winning that particular battle. To make matters worse the bathroom was done up 12 years ago and the seat has lost its ‘soft close’ so any time he does remember to put it down it clatters down with a bang . Usually when I am just drifting off to sleep…

[Malcolm]

3 hours ago, stocky said:

Would that be a watch that resides mostly in your pocket, to be examined when u put your monicle on. 🤔😉 

ha ha ha.  I do have but never wear a pocket watch.  No just a regular automatic watch.