Indyref 2 (2)

[daviebee]

32 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

They applied for another referendum. You not been watching the news?

It was denied by the supreme court. Most of those headlines are in line with the idea of a 2023 referendum and the 2021 manifesto.

Look buddy i am guessing your a fully grown man. If you want to vent your anger at not getting indy ref 2 then focus it on the weakness of the scottish ppl rather than blaming a woman who has been campaigning for independence since she was 16. 

The snp havent been promising referendums. They have suggested that one takes place in 2023 and had it in their 2021 manifesto. There might be snp soundbites prior to 2018/19 of indyref 2 but suggesting they have been promising one for years on end is bullshit. 

The idea of having another referendum 4 or 5 years after the first one is madness and totally unrealistic. 

Your wee guru promised a "no ifs, no buts" referendum on October 19th next year.  You not been watching the news?  Look, pal - don't have a fkin go at me for pointing out what should be obvious to you if you'd just open your eyes.  We were definitely getting a referendum next year.  It wasn't my idiotic decision to then go to the UKSC (something that could've been done donkeys ago) and it's not me back-pedalling from the de facto referendum as fast as my legs can go.

Sturgeon will NEVER deliver independence.  Maybe she's too busy concentrating on the day job?  Pity she's sh*te at that as well.

[hampden_loon2878]

41 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

They havent set it up though

They are planning to ....

Scotland planned to as well

Does Wales have more powers than Scotland

The article by the Colonialist Herald is ...a lie

My point is that it should never be taken off the table, even if they say”we haven’t the power ATM but it’s our intention”  give folk a vision instead of the nothing that is being offered just now 

[Ally Bongo]

2 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

My point is that it should never be taken off the table, even if they say”we haven’t the power ATM but it’s our intention”  give folk a vision instead of the nothing that is being offered just now 

All that's happening in Scotland just now is the over promotion of British Labour and Sarwar

They are hoping people will think how can Labour in Wales do this but the SNP in Scotland cant

That is how deceitful it it getting

It is still the intention of the Scottish Government but we need Independence

[hampden_loon2878]

21 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

All that's happening in Scotland just now is the over promotion of British Labour and Sarwar

They are hoping people will think how can Labour in Wales do this but the SNP in Scotland cant

That is how deceitful it it getting

It is still the intention of the Scottish Government but we need Independence

That’s exactly what’s happening and it’s political naivety on thE SNP’s behalf that they have left that opening. It’s about time some within the snp ranks waken up to the threat of labour , the tories are finished they are not the threat now 

[TDYER63]

1 hour ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

That’s exactly what’s happening and it’s political naivety on thE SNP’s behalf that they have left that opening. It’s about time some within the snp ranks waken up to the threat of labour , the tories are finished they are not the threat now 

Labour have always been the threat. Tories were never a real issue within the country as a whole. 

[TDYER63]

If I were a unionist I would be reading this thread and wringing my hands in glee. They have the entire British media behind them and are united in the one thing that they are fighting against. 

Dont let’s forget why Labour were replaced in Scotland in the first place. 

[hampden_loon2878]

Just now, TDYER63 said:

If I were a unionist I would be reading this thread and wringing my hands in glee. They have the entire British media behind them and are united in the one thing that they are fighting against. 

Dont let’s forget why Labour were replaced in Scotland in the first place. 

you are right but the SNP are heading down that road of complacency,, the party in general have time to play with to get their shit together.. 

[TDYER63]

1 minute ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

you are right but the SNP are heading down that road of complacency,, the party in general have time to play with to get their shit together.. 

I don’t disagree but they are also getting scrutinised to a level that Labour never, ever did. I doubt Labour in Wales is either. 
Thats not an excuse though for areas of incompetence. 

[hampden_loon2878]

30 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I don’t disagree but they are also getting scrutinised to a level that Labour never, ever did. I doubt Labour in Wales is either. 
Thats not an excuse though for areas of incompetence. 

oh 100% your right there, and thats why everything the party does has to be bang on, no cracks or leaky policies because they will pay for it..i see this ppe scandal with baroness mone that  labour are taking all the praise for speaking out against it lol, the snp have been shouting about it for over a year, we cant rely on the media to be unbiased 

[Malcolm]

The snp are masters of their own downfall by getting in tow with the greens and the nonsense policies like gender reassignment.

[hampden_loon2878]

36 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

The snp are masters of their own downfall by getting in tow with the greens and the nonsense policies like gender reassignment.

so little to gain and so much to lose in the policy 

[TDYER63]

31 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

oh 100% your right there, and thats why everything the party does has to be bang on, no cracks or leaky policies because they will pay for it..i see this ppe scandal with baroness mone that  labour are taking all the praise for speaking out against it lol, the snp have been shouting about it for over a year, we cant rely on the media to be unbiased 

Its bloody frustrating but they need to keep chipping away. I have been completely prepared for a long game but there is a massive risk with that as it allows the likes of Labour to take advantage. The best thing IMO would be a uk general election and Labour to get a small majority. The Tory/Labour media would  be too busy kicking each other they might actually take their eye off Scotland.  Highly unlikely though. 
 

[TDYER63]

40 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

The snp are masters of their own downfall by getting in tow with the greens and the nonsense policies like gender reassignment.

 

3 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

so little to gain and so much to lose in the policy 

I dont think at this point in time its a massive distraction, thats not to say it wouldn’t become one though, especially if people were pissed off with other things.

Right , I am away to boot Matt Hancocks arse. I have found out I can get 5 free votes for Jill and Owen on the app ! 😁🏃‍♀️🏃‍♀️🏃‍♀️

[aaid]

1 hour ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

oh 100% your right there, and thats why everything the party does has to be bang on, no cracks or leaky policies because they will pay for it..i see this ppe scandal with baroness mone that  labour are taking all the praise for speaking out against it lol, the snp have been shouting about it for over a year, we cant rely on the media to be unbiased 

BBC Scotland have had radio silence since the scandal broke months ago.  Angela Rayner raises it in the commons and it’s a main story on Reporting Scotland.  When the latest Guardian story came out last week on the front page, for some reason, the Guardian was missing from the front page review on the website that day.

[Toepoke]

6 hours ago, daviebee said:

You've seen the big graphic of all The National front pages promising a referendum and how it's on its way, right?

Don't ask me what I'd do.  Ask your guru why she hasn't done what she said SHE would do.

Just found it...

Politically biased newspaper prints bollocks on the front page shocker.

 

[Freeedom]

7 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Eh? When have they promised a referendum and not delivered it?

Every election since the brexit vote

[mccaughey85]

4 hours ago, Freeedom said:

Every election since the brexit vote

Theres only been 1 scottish election since the brexit vote and that was in 2021 in which the snp had indyref2 in their manifesto. 

What possible way can you have an issue with the timeline of events. Did you expect the snp to have indyref2 in their manifesto in 2016, only 2 years after the first 1? Thats unrealistic to say the least.

The uk general elections are a different kettle of fish. Scottish seats only make up small percentage and the snp have less seats now than in 2015 when the scots decided to vote on mass for the snp when it really didnt matter. 

Jesus wept is this the mindset of nationalist movement. The snp have pushed for a referendum at the earliest possible chance. Its been knocked back so now its over to the scottish ppl to keep voting snp and for them to keep applying for one or civil disobedience by the scottish ppl is the next step. Blaming sturgeon and the snp because scots dont have the balls to take their country back is pathetic. It seems to be a common theme on this thread(and the previous one). Stop trying to scapegoat ppl and take responsibility. 

[mccaughey85]

11 hours ago, daviebee said:

Your wee guru promised a "no ifs, no buts" referendum on October 19th next year.  You not been watching the news?  Look, pal - don't have a fkin go at me for pointing out what should be obvious to you if you'd just open your eyes.  We were definitely getting a referendum next year.  It wasn't my idiotic decision to then go to the UKSC (something that could've been done donkeys ago) and it's not me back-pedalling from the de facto referendum as fast as my legs can go.

Sturgeon will NEVER deliver independence.  Maybe she's too busy concentrating on the day job?  Pity she's sh*te at that as well.

So you want to hold a referendum without westminsters consent?

If you do then fair enough but it will be boycotted by unionists and deemed illegal by westminster. The result will be flawed due to this and wont be considered fair and legit. 

I know its easier for you to blame sturgeon but what would you like her to do? Shes not a military leader or a vigilante. Shes there to apply for a referendum and lead a political party. She cant physically force scots to rebel. If the scots wont vote on mass for indy parties(about 30 percent vote for snp )and wont cause civil disobedience then what is it you expect? Your looking to blame sturgeon and the snp rather than accept the scottish ppls short comings. It seems to be a common theme on here to blame sturgeon and the snp but if scots wont even vote for indy partys then why do you think we should be getting another referendum. If the ppl cant do the simplest of tasks of putting an x in a box then they dont deserve their country back. 

My personal preference is that the snp call another scottish election and run on the single issue of indyref2. The scottish ppl will then have the chance to put up or shut up. If the result returns close to half of electorate for indy partys then we reapply to the uk government for an indyref2. If they reject it then its civil disobedience time or we just do what you want and cowardly scapegoat a women who from the age of 16 has dedicated her life to pushing for independence for YOUR country. The choice is yours. 

 

[Malcolm]

2 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

So you want to hold a referendum without westminsters consent?

If you do then fair enough but it will be boycotted by unionists and deemed illegal by westminster. The result will be flawed due to this and wont be considered fair and legit. 

I know its easier for you to blame sturgeon but what would you like her to do? Shes not a military leader or a vigilante. Shes there to apply for a referendum and lead a political party. She cant physically force scots to rebel. If the scots wont vote on mass for indy parties(about 30 percent vote for snp )and wont cause civil disobedience then what is it you expect? Your looking to blame sturgeon and the snp rather than accept the scottish ppls short comings. It seems to be a common theme on here to blame sturgeon and the snp but if scots wont even vote for indy partys then why do you think we should be getting another referendum. If the ppl cant do the simplest of tasks of putting an x in a box then they dont deserve their country back. 

My personal preference is that the snp call another scottish election and run on the single issue of indyref2. The scottish ppl will then have the chance to put up or shut up. If the result returns close to half of electorate for indy partys then we reapply to the uk government for an indyref2. If they reject it then its civil disobedience time or we just do what you want and cowardly scapegoat a women who from the age of 16 has dedicated her life to pushing for independence for YOUR country. The choice is yours. 

 

how does that work then?  If the snp call a Scottish parliament election and campaign on one issue, do they not pass any legislation at all in the forthcoming parliament assuming they are elected.  If they promise that, I could be tempted to vote snp on the one issue.  What I couldnt have is them campaigning on independence only and then bring in other legislation, eg gender reform, wealth tax, etc, as they would not have been elected on that basis?

 

[mccaughey85]

14 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

how does that work then?  If the snp call a Scottish parliament election and campaign on one issue, do they not pass any legislation at all in the forthcoming parliament assuming they are elected.  If they promise that, I could be tempted to vote snp on the one issue.  What I couldnt have is them campaigning on independence only and then bring in other legislation, eg gender reform, wealth tax, etc, as they would not have been elected on that basis?

 

Yes it would be based on the single issue of independence. It would effectively become a referendum in itself.

You do realise ppl have died in order to obtain their countries freedom? Voting for a party you dislike is the easiest option anyone has ever had and yet the scots cant seem to do it.

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by mccaughey85

[daviebee]

4 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

So you want to hold a referendum without westminsters consent?

If you do then fair enough but it will be boycotted by unionists and deemed illegal by westminster. The result will be flawed due to this and wont be considered fair and legit. 

I know its easier for you to blame sturgeon but what would you like her to do? Shes not a military leader or a vigilante. Shes there to apply for a referendum and lead a political party. She cant physically force scots to rebel. If the scots wont vote on mass for indy parties(about 30 percent vote for snp )and wont cause civil disobedience then what is it you expect? Your looking to blame sturgeon and the snp rather than accept the scottish ppls short comings. It seems to be a common theme on here to blame sturgeon and the snp but if scots wont even vote for indy partys then why do you think we should be getting another referendum. If the ppl cant do the simplest of tasks of putting an x in a box then they dont deserve their country back. 

My personal preference is that the snp call another scottish election and run on the single issue of indyref2. The scottish ppl will then have the chance to put up or shut up. If the result returns close to half of electorate for indy partys then we reapply to the uk government for an indyref2. If they reject it then its civil disobedience time or we just do what you want and cowardly scapegoat a women who from the age of 16 has dedicated her life to pushing for independence for YOUR country. The choice is yours. 

 

Well the SNP Deputy Leader has just put the blockers on your personal preference with his car crash interview the other day.  He might as well have said, "What??? ME resign? Aye, fck that!"

One by one the SNP close the avenues off.  Still, we could use the next WM GE to ask for another Section 30 as outlined by your policy convener.  And when WM tells you now is not the time and the newly-elected SNP MPs get 5 years' worth of salaries and pensions, I'm sure that's a cross they'll bear on our behalf, albeit reluctantly of course.

Even the Daily Record - the Daily fkin Record FFS - were telling Sturgeon to get on with calling a referendum after the EU ref and she still dithered around doing SFA.  Do you know what the Record's been like down the decades?  I'm talking LONG before the Vow.  Are you old enough to remember the sneering contempt from these bstrds towards anyone not slavishly voting for their beloved Labour Party and who thought that Scotland could go it alone?  And yet here they were calling on NS to get on with a referendum, one that would likely see the demise of the UK.

Fkin hell, if Sturgeon was in charge in the 13th Century she would've let the whole English army across the bridge at Stirling while she arsed about wondering if her own was properly gender balanced.

[mccaughey85]

13 minutes ago, daviebee said:

Well the SNP Deputy Leader has just put the blockers on your personal preference with his car crash interview the other day.  He might as well have said, "What??? ME resign? Aye, fck that!"

One by one the SNP close the avenues off.  Still, we could use the next WM GE to ask for another Section 30 as outlined by your policy convener.  And when WM tells you now is not the time and the newly-elected SNP MPs get 5 years' worth of salaries and pensions, I'm sure that's a cross they'll bear on our behalf, albeit reluctantly of course.

Even the Daily Record - the Daily fkin Record FFS - were telling Sturgeon to get on with calling a referendum after the EU ref and she still dithered around doing SFA.  Do you know what the Record's been like down the decades?  I'm talking LONG before the Vow.  Are you old enough to remember the sneering contempt from these bstrds towards anyone not slavishly voting for their beloved Labour Party and who thought that Scotland could go it alone?  And yet here they were calling on NS to get on with a referendum, one that would likely see the demise of the UK.

Fkin hell, if Sturgeon was in charge in the 13th Century she would've let the whole English army across the bridge at Stirling while she arsed about wondering if her own was properly gender balanced.

So do you want to hold a referendum without westminsters consent?

Whats your solution here?

What do you want the snp/sturgeon to do? They are a political party not a paramilitary. Its not up to sturgeon and the snp to physically revolt against the british establishment. 

The situation on here seems to be a bunch of ppl who are unwilling to physically revolt/rebel themselves looking to pin the blame on sturgeon/snp for not getting them a referendum. If westminster says no to indyref2 then you need ask yourself am i willing to physically kick off and revolt against westminster. If the answers no then why are you looking to sturgeon or the snp to do it for you?

Your looking to the wrong ppl to fight your battles.

Edited November 28, 2022 by mccaughey85

[daviebee]

49 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

So do you want to hold a referendum without westminsters consent?

Whats your solution here?

What do you want the snp/sturgeon to do? They are a political party not a paramilitary. Its not up to sturgeon and the snp to physically revolt against the british establishment. 

The situation on here seems to be a bunch of ppl who are unwilling to physically revolt/rebel themselves looking to pin the blame on sturgeon/snp for not getting them a referendum. If westminster says no to indyref2 then you need ask yourself am i willing to physically kick off and revolt against westminster. If the answers no then why are you looking to sturgeon or the snp to do it for you?

Your looking to the wrong ppl to fight your battles.

You're not making any sense here.  If the SNP can't do anything then what's the point of them?  Why send 50 of them to WM and give them a majority at Holyrood?  Why aren't they kicking up fck in the HoC and disrupting things in that anachronistic institution every day of the week?  Too busy being good wee parliamentarians and worrying whether they'll get to the subsidised restaurant before the filet mignon runs out?

Every election they say they're getting an indyref and then it just gets kicked further down the road.  "Independence" is now the SNP's equivalent of "the oil is running out".

[aaid]

It seems that there's a lot of people who seem to think that all we've had to do over the last 8 years is to have a vote tomorrow, we'd automatically win it and Scotland would be independent.  That is of course nonsense.

In terms of support, we're getting close to the biggest  consistent support for independence there has ever been but for six months or so in 2020 at the start of the pandemic - when some were squealing about why can we have a referendum now.

In order to win any sort of vote - a referendum actual or de facto - then realistically, Yes (or SNP) needs to be consistently polling above 55% in the days and weeks leading up to the poll, to avoid any margin of error issues or last minute changes of mind.   

With the country essentially at 50/50 on one level that is a great starting point however there aren't a massive number of don't knows and the No side have a huge number of people attitudes have hardened over the last 8 years.   Not all those on the Yes side are true believers though.   I'm not saying it's impossible to get a majority but it will be very difficult to do that and anyone suggesting that is suggesting another 20 point move as happened in 2014 is deluded.  That increase in support comes from persuading those who can be persuaded that independence represents the best future for Scotland.  It doesn't come from complaining about why can't everyone see how corrupt Westminster is or from fixating and arguing about process.

In order to win, the Yes side needs to maximimise all the advantages that it has and to try and avoid as much as possible any of the down sides.

For a defacto referendum, that's something which has been done before and so it will take time to shape the approach of parties.   As before anyone who suggests that the manifesto will contain the line "Scotland should be an independent country" and that politicians will answer every question with the word "Independence" is deluded.

The parties will have to put together their manifestos, but for the avoidance of giving the opposition an opportunity to cry foul, it will have to form a sort of pyramid which builds on issues from the bottom up but which all lead to the apex which is independence.   So for example, on cost of living, you put together an argument which states something about how the current situation has been caused by Westminster, what a Scottish government would do if it was in charge to resolve it, all the things which are barriers to doing that under the current constitutional arrangements and so why the Scottish government can only deal with the Cost of Living crisis and stop it from happening again with independence.  So you am an agument about that which leads to and answer which says "independence will enable us to do xyx".  That means any sort of "Single party" or even a close alliance is impossible because while the SNP, Greens and probably Alba might be able to agree on the root cause, they will disagree on the detail of the approach.

That's actually different from the way the SNP put together an election manifesto as while they tend to have a transactional format and focus on issue by issue.  It is actually the sort of approach you take in a referendum.

A criticism has been thrown at the SNP, that no one party can define what an election is about, it the electorate that does that. In principle that is correct, however that the opposition are taking this approach right now shows that they are shitting it as they don't know how to handle an election fought under those terms.   What the SNP need to do is to make sure that no matter how the campaign progresses - and there are always unforeseen things that happen during elections and can derail campaigns - you could argue that had Sean Clerkin not chased Iain Gray into a subway in 2011, the SNP might not have won a majority or even the election - that they plant their flag on the field and keep the campaign on track.

[mcguffin]

14 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

so little to gain and so much to lose in the policy 

In terms of striving for Independence, I'm not sure how much an alliance with the Greens is providing the SNP? Check out Lesley Riddoch's podcast from 05:30.
https://share.transistor.fm/s/dc4e09e4

She had just listed some of the speakers who had accepted invitations to speak at last week's 'Supreme Court Decision' rallies.
Then her co-host, Pat Joyce, asks Lesley why no Green speakers appeared to be listed (despite there being speakers from the SNP, Alba and various other non-party-affiliated organisations).  Speaking only from her knowledge of the Edinburgh rally,  she said she had contacted 5 Green MSPs asking them to speak, and they all declined, giving as their reason that "they are not taking part" 😐.

Make of that what you will. (But as a positive, good to see SNP and Alba--despite their differences over tactics--being able to share a stage when it comes to discussing the Supreme Court's slap-in-the-face).