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Indyref 2 (2)


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34 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

That’s probably his biggest mistake in jumping the gun prior the  holyrood election with alba maybe you could argue he shouldn’t have stepped aside after the referendum in 2014.. i firmly believe we would have been independent by now.The creation of the alba party to me is a deterrent to the snp and should be welcomed IMHO

Is it not more akin to the creation of the Brexit Party to the Tories back in 2019?

They threatened the Tories enough into making them embrace a hard Brexit

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30 minutes ago, Dave78 said:

Is it not more akin to the creation of the Brexit Party to the Tories back in 2019?

They threatened the Tories enough into making them embrace a hard Brexit

to me the alba party is on the side lines saying look after the cause of independence and do right by it or we will be ready to take the votes from you if you mess up. Having a monopoly over things can corrupt the mind or edge in complacency, the snp have a monopoly over independence leaning voters. Alba is a good counter balance imo

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7 hours ago, Dave78 said:

As much as i admire Salmond, and liked his speeches at the meeting tonight (in the video i posted), i don't think he'll be willing to "call the dogs off and back the plan we are now forced to have".

For example, he referred to the Irish independence movement tonight, and how in the aftermath of 1916 the rebels were "spat on in the streets" by Dubliners. That's historical fact of course. His point was that sometimes you need to do the unpopular thing, which encourages an over-reaction from the establishment power (in the Irish case the execution of the rebels in Kilmainham jail), which then in turn causes an upsurge in support for your cause.

Considering Salmond had always adopted the gradualist approach, this attitude makes me wonder how sincere he is, and how motivated he is by party advantage. I suspect he sees Alba as Sinn Fein, and the SNP as the Irish Parliamentary Party.

I'm a bit uncomfortable with this. @hampden_loon2878, next time you see him, ask him about the IPP/SF comparison and his take on it 👍

When you look at how they came about and who is involved then it’s pretty clear that all the main players are people who for whatever reason feel they’ve been hard done by, by Nicola Sturgeon and/or the party in general.

Alex Salmond - the “witchhunt”
Kenny MacAskill - sacked by Sturgeon when she took over - interestingly, he seems to be pretty obsessed with Irish history these days.
Neale Hanvey - had the rug pulled from under him because of anti-Semitic comments
Chris McEleny - rejected twice by the membership for Depute Leade
Denise Findlay - thrown off the NEC for unacceptable historic tweets.

If you look at their policy platform, it’s Independence plus a ragbag of policies that are a weird mix of left wing economic and socially conservative stuff that are only consistent in that they appear to be trying to push a wedge into the SNP vote. This is not a platform that Alex Salmond would’ve put forward as leader of the SNP in a million years. I doubt he believes a word of it. 

It’s pretty clear that they’re nothing more than the “get rid of Nicola” party.

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15 minutes ago, aaid said:

When you look at how they came about and who is involved then it’s pretty clear that all the main players are people who for whatever reason feel they’ve been hard done by, by Nicola Sturgeon and/or the party in general.

Alex Salmond - the “witchhunt”
Kenny MacAskill - sacked by Sturgeon when she took over - interestingly, he seems to be pretty obsessed with Irish history these days.
Neale Hanvey - had the rug pulled from under him because of anti-Semitic comments
Chris McEleny - rejected twice by the membership for Depute Leade
Denise Findlay - thrown off the NEC for unacceptable historic tweets.

If you look at their policy platform, it’s Independence plus a ragbag of policies that are a weird mix of left wing economic and socially conservative stuff that are only consistent in that they appear to be trying to push a wedge into the SNP vote. This is not a platform that Alex Salmond would’ve put forward as leader of the SNP in a million years. I doubt he believes a word of it. 

It’s pretty clear that they’re nothing more than the “get rid of Nicola” party.

You do think yer the boy,, the tamb oracle 

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i quite like Joanna cherry, at least she has a sensible view on gender reassignment. I wouldn’t be disappointed if Nicola was punted and she got leadership.  In fact, if the radical policies influenced by the greens were dropped and she was leader I might even be tempted to vote snp again.

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8 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

to me the alba party is on the side lines saying look after the cause of independence and do right by it or we will be ready to take the votes from you if you mess up. Having a monopoly over things can corrupt the mind or edge in complacency, the snp have a monopoly over independence leaning voters. Alba is a good counter balance imo

And that's why the SNP hate them so much and Sturgeon throws a complete hissy at the very mention of them.  We've seen it before in Scottish politics and not so long ago either...  a dominant party with a sense of entitlement taking their voters for granted.  It only ends one way.

Sadly, what I hear from some in the SNP now is what I heard from Labour activists when I was one of the few SNP-voting shop stewards on our workplace committee back in the 90's.  The sneering contempt is exactly the same.

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2 hours ago, aaid said:

When you look at how they came about and who is involved then it’s pretty clear that all the main players are people who for whatever reason feel they’ve been hard done by, by Nicola Sturgeon and/or the party in general.

Alex Salmond - the “witchhunt”
Kenny MacAskill - sacked by Sturgeon when she took over - interestingly, he seems to be pretty obsessed with Irish history these days.
Neale Hanvey - had the rug pulled from under him because of anti-Semitic comments
Chris McEleny - rejected twice by the membership for Depute Leade
Denise Findlay - thrown off the NEC for unacceptable historic tweets.

If you look at their policy platform, it’s Independence plus a ragbag of policies that are a weird mix of left wing economic and socially conservative stuff that are only consistent in that they appear to be trying to push a wedge into the SNP vote. This is not a platform that Alex Salmond would’ve put forward as leader of the SNP in a million years. I doubt he believes a word of it. 

It’s pretty clear that they’re nothing more than the “get rid of Nicola” party.

I see where your coming from aaid. But I'd argue that what all of these people have in common is that they simply want Scotland to be a normal independent country. And they want to see faster progress in that direction. I don't think they they care who is the current FM.  I don't know, your bullet point list of some of their membership, and their bad deeds, followed by the assertion that it's all personal, that it's all a "get rid of Nicola" party, almost seems like the kind of thing a  mainstream journalist from the Guardian, The Herald or <insert any other 'respected' journal> might write?

I'm sure someone could write a similar bullet list of SNP members and their misdemeanours. But personally I'm not interested in this stuff. Others might be? I just want to see an Independent Scotland in my lifetime. (And I suspect that Alex, Nicola and many other faces associated with present day Scottish politics, will fade into history in a newly independent Scotland. Their jobs done. And I will applaud them all if they succeed).

Edited by mcguffin
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To take things forward, the independence movement needs airing of what the different options are for plebiscite elections or any other fronts, such as what recourse there may be to international law/the UN.

If Alba can play a role in that let's hear it, rather than sewing division.

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17 hours ago, Dave78 said:

Been watching the livestream of Salmond. Without doubt, Salmond is still the best speaker in the Scottish pro-democracy movement.

 

 

Thanks really enjoyed that. Only a political partisan would deny how good how Alex Salmond is. There are areas they slate the SG and are perfectly entitled to. 
There is a lot of good content  but the over riding factor is Salmond’s personality and delivery . In fairness Kenny McAskill was also good on his energy speech. 
Didn’t know Salmond’s mother was a Tory, until she felt she had to back him through family loyalty 😂 

 

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13 hours ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

to me the alba party is on the side lines saying look after the cause of independence and do right by it or we will be ready to take the votes from you if you mess up. Having a monopoly over things can corrupt the mind or edge in complacency, the snp have a monopoly over independence leaning voters. Alba is a good counter balance imo

Agree

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2 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:


Didn’t know Salmond’s mother was a Tory, until she felt she had to back him through family loyalty 😂 

 

Aye, i liked that bit.

And his point about his unionist mother is correct. I'd estimate that the majority of unionists aren't of the Britnat ilk. They recognise that Scotland is a country in itself, but one that's in a voluntary union, and not extinguished/subsumed into Greater England.

The court ruling will be uncomfortable news for them.

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1 minute ago, Dave78 said:

Aye, i liked that bit.

And his point about his unionist mother is correct. I'd estimate that the majority of unionists aren't of the Britnat ilk. They recognise that Scotland is a country in itself, but one that's in a voluntary union, and not extinguished/subsumed into Greater England.

The court ruling will be uncomfortable news for them.

Yes, I was struggling a bit with sound when it went  to the audience but someone was saying they felt that by chance the Supreme court’s decision will actually have played into the hands of independence  . Whether it was by chance or not I think we need to grab advantage of it to highlight how undemocratic the union is. As you say moderate unionists will struggle with that, there is very little to counter the argument as AS eloquently demonstrates.
It will need ‘pro democracy’ campaigners to drill this home as this whole political imbalance just goes over the heads of a lot of people until something happens to directly affect their own lives . 

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So, backtracking it is then... from the SNP's own policy convener: https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/snp-policy-chief-de-facto-referendum-win-could-be-used-to-secure-rerun-of-2014/ar-AA14yyS1

Never mind the "no ifs, no buts" referendum on October 19th next year, never mind treating the next GE as a de facto indyref, we're going to... er... use it to ask for a Section 30.  Fkin hell they must think folks heids button up the back!

"Just vote for us and we'll ask for a Section 30 and when we're told now is not the time - well, we've got another 5 years' worth of salaries and expenses to pick up."

I don't know what the answer is, but it's clearly not the SNP in its present form.

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7 hours ago, Malcolm said:


i quite like Joanna cherry, at least she has a sensible view on gender reassignment. I wouldn’t be disappointed if Nicola was punted and she got leadership.  In fact, if the radical policies influenced by the greens were dropped and she was leader I might even be tempted to vote snp again.

 

5 hours ago, Malcolm said:


if I was to vote Alba, what would I be voting for, aside from independence?

If I am being honest, probably many of  policies Joanna Cherry would advocate . 

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7 minutes ago, exile said:

Wouldn't Salmond's message be better received among independence supporters  if he was above party politics?

Probably. But I think it would have been difficult if he hadn’t created Alba as many anti SNP supporters would probably just see him as a nodding dog for the SNP , which in turn could stop those people voting for independence. 

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56 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

pretty much what the SNP offered 10 years ago, especially their energy policy, its pretty much identical,, middle politics 

that's a good take. 


Personally I think Alba can definitely appeal to the middle-ground. If they can get a positive message out to the electorate (despite a for-the-most-part hostile media).  I actually think it could be a good thing to get a little more vigorous debate going between the various pro-Independence parties. About how to move, forward after the Supreme Court slap in the face, to achieve the goal (shared by Greens, SNP and Alba alike) of Scotland becoming a normal, independent, European country.

 

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Right, just back from the Scottish cup Fraserburgh v Arbroath ( Arbroath win 0-2) and realised D Ross running the line, could not get near him, however, at half time and full time the ground and especially the home fans absolutely ripped him, I’m talking about boos from the far side to the stand, he got it big time, good, so there’s a poster that posts on here that says the north east are waivered, by fuck D Ross got melted, full fishing boats in the harbour, not a Tory voice to be seen, well done Fraserburgh.

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14 hours ago, aaid said:


Kenny MacAskill - sacked by Sturgeon when she took over - interestingly, he seems to be pretty obsessed with Irish history these days.

To be fair, it's the most relevant (or only) example of a UK nation leaving the union.

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51 minutes ago, Broath Boy said:

Right, just back from the Scottish cup Fraserburgh v Arbroath ( Arbroath win 0-2) and realised D Ross running the line, could not get near him, however, at half time and full time the ground and especially the home fans absolutely ripped him, I’m talking about boos from the far side to the stand, he got it big time, good, so there’s a poster that posts on here that says the north east are waivered, by fuck D Ross got melted, full fishing boats in the harbour, not a Tory voice to be seen, well done Fraserburgh.

brochs always been a nationalist town, some die hard torys,, brexit did change the dynamics a bit though,, i heard he got slaughtered today haha

Edited by hampden_loon2878
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