Indyref 2 (2)

[aaid]

15 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

You really are a nob.  Nothing constructive to say.

And you’re a troll. 

[aaid]

41 minutes ago, daviebee said:

Backtracking already.  Mhairi Hunter, one of Sturgeon's go-to sh*t deflectors doing a bit of kite-flying.  So we've gone from a "no ifs, no buts" referendum on 19th October next year to "the next general election will be a plebiscite and if you just all vote for us again it won't be a vote for independence as such, but we'll ask nicely if we can have a referendum."

Good to see Nikla will be having a chat about things with her colleagues sometime next year.  I thought given the urgency of the situation that these discussions would be happening this weekend at the very latest.  Seemingly not though.  Let's hope not too many folk die of the cold in the most energy-rich country in Europe in the meantime.

So what would you do instead?

[Ally Bongo]

22 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

You really are a nob.  Nothing constructive to say.

A Nob is a person of wealth or high social position - and i have made plenty of constructive posts on this thread unlike yourself

If you post shite then dont greet about the responses

[Malcolm]

8 minutes ago, aaid said:

And you’re a troll. 

no, what you are really saying is that unless you are sympathetic to the nationalist view and in some cases the snp view your view is not welcome here.

[aaid]

4 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

I think she should have accepted the result of the brexit vote and reignited the campaign for independence on the back of that vote, NOT campaigned to overturn the result.

The lack of self awareness on her part was shocking

 

The lack of self awareness was to push the button too early as Scotland wasn’t ready for it at that point as was proved in 2017.

Remember the SNP has two primary objectives. One is to seek independence, the other is to protect the interests of the people of Scotland (or words to that effect).

If the country isn’t ready for independence and there’s a major harm being inflicted which it doesn’t want, what do you do?

Your route would seem to me be one which would put the clock back to the 1990s. 

[Malcolm]

1 minute ago, Ally Bongo said:

A Nob is a person of wealth or high social position - and i have made plenty of constructive posts on this thread unlike yourself

If you post shite then dont greet about the responses

im not greeting about it in the slightest. That’s my view.  Different from the vast majority on here but thankfully not the general public.

[aaid]

10 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

no, what you are really saying is that unless you are sympathetic to the nationalist view and in some cases the snp view your view is not welcome here.

There used to be a poster on here called Alan.  He was an unrepentant Tory, he lived in East Renfrewshire but worked in Edinburgh.  He made his points articulately - most people didn’t agree with him - but he didn’t pretend to be something other than he was.  I had respect for him.

No-one on here believes your “I voted Yes in 2014” mate.

[exile]

15 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

im not greeting about it in the slightest. That’s my view.  Different from the vast majority on here but thankfully not the general public.

Surely a Tory view is not the vast majority of the general public (in Scotland), and a pro-indy Tory view even more niche. 😉

But it's a welcome distinctive point of view that normally provides good counterpoint for people to get their teeth into. For me, anyway, more interesting than the standard boilerplate 'unrepentant Tory'

Edited November 25, 2022 by exile

[Malcolm]

1 minute ago, aaid said:

There used to be a poster on here called Alan.  He was an unrepentant Tory, he lived in East Renfrewshire but worked in Edinburgh.  He made his points articulately - most people didn’t agree with him - but he didn’t pretend to be something other than he was.  I had respect for him.

No-one on here believes your “I voted Yes in 2014” mate.

I don’t care what you believe…. But I voted yes in 2014.  Here’s the thing, people change their minds… times change, views change.  I’m sure you hope that a few people change from No to yes.  I’m seeing a lot of people changing from yes to no or don’t know (as in my case).

[aaid]

2 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

I don’t care what you believe…. But I voted yes in 2014.  Here’s the thing, people change their minds… times change, views change.  I’m sure you hope that a few people change from No to yes.  I’m seeing a lot of people changing from yes to no or don’t know (as in my case).

You’ve been on one hell of a journey then.

[Malcolm]

2 minutes ago, exile said:

Surely a Tory view is not the vast majority of the general public (in Scotland), and a pro-indy Tory view even more niche. 😉

But it's a welcome distinctive point of view that normally provides good counterpoint for people to get their teeth into. For me, anyway, more interesting than the standard boilerplate 'unrepentant Tory'

i am right wing (you might say Tory, but there are several right wing parties), now undecided on independence, but ideologically aligned to independence.  My problem with the tories is the terrible leadership in recent times.

[Malcolm]

Just now, aaid said:

You’ve been on one hell of a journey then.

I was a no voter up until three weeks before the referendum.  I let my heart rule my head in the vote. 

[Freeedom]

23 minutes ago, aaid said:

The lack of self awareness was to push the button too early as Scotland wasn’t ready for it at that point as was proved in 2017.

Remember the SNP has two primary objectives. One is to seek independence, the other is to protect the interests of the people of Scotland (or words to that effect).

If the country isn’t ready for independence and there’s a major harm being inflicted which it doesn’t want, what do you do?

Your route would seem to me be one which would put the clock back to the 1990s. 

I don't know what your connection is to the SNP, but I find your uncritical, partisan defence of them at every turn to be troubling.

I would not have expected the SNP to immediately push for another referendum in the aftermath of the brexit vote, but I would have expected the party to make more of the argument that a democratic deficit exists for the people of Scotland as a member of the United Kingdom. To have another vote we needed to push support for independence up and highlighting that democratic deficit would have helped people to understand that being independent means that Scotland gets to make its own decisions.

The fact of the matter is though that we voted to remain a part of the UK and as a consequence we voted to put our future in the hands of voters largely living in England. If you believe in democracy as a fundamental principle then you do not campaign to overturn the largest democratic referendum held in the history of the UK, which is exactly what Nicola Sturgeon did.

If my route of making the argument in favour of independence, to talk about how we can do things better in Scotland and push public opinion above 60% instead of hovering around the 50% mark where we seem to have been stuck in for the last 8 years is a 90's strategy then I'll go ahead and put my Nevermind CD back on
 

[daviebee]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

So what would you do instead?

Hang on.  Do you thing the next GE should be an "open indy negotiations" immediately in the event of 50% + 1 or not?  I reckon that's the best we'll get with that dithering wee nyaff, but obviously she's trying to dampen expectations already.

While I'm here, do you think Sturgeon should resign if her "no ifs, no buts" referendum fails to materialise next October?

[hampden_loon2878]

1 hour ago, aaid said:

So you think the Scottish Government should accept outcomes which Scotland hasn’t voted for but England has?

the stop brexit campaign was a total disaster, yes she was right to come out against it but it was how deeply involved she got in it that was the problem

[hampden_loon2878]

47 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

I don’t care what you believe…. But I voted yes in 2014.  Here’s the thing, people change their minds… times change, views change.  I’m sure you hope that a few people change from No to yes.  I’m seeing a lot of people changing from yes to no or don’t know (as in my case).

from a personal view, i am shocked the polls show so favorable for yes 

[hampden_loon2878]

43 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

I was a no voter up until three weeks before the referendum.  I let my heart rule my head in the vote. 

am sure when/if the vote comes again you will choose the correct answer again

Edited November 25, 2022 by hampden_loon2878

[Malcolm]

1 minute ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

am sure when/if the vote comes again you will choose the correct answer again

ha ha maybe!  It’s funny how th8ngs can change when push comes to shove and you are in the polling booth.

[hampden_loon2878]

20 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

I don't know what your connection is to the SNP, but I find your uncritical, partisan defence of them at every turn to be troubling.

I would not have expected the SNP to immediately push for another referendum in the aftermath of the brexit vote, but I would have expected the party to make more of the argument that a democratic deficit exists for the people of Scotland as a member of the United Kingdom. To have another vote we needed to push support for independence up and highlighting that democratic deficit would have helped people to understand that being independent means that Scotland gets to make its own decisions.

The fact of the matter is though that we voted to remain a part of the UK and as a consequence we voted to put our future in the hands of voters largely living in England. If you believe in democracy as a fundamental principle then you do not campaign to overturn the largest democratic referendum held in the history of the UK, which is exactly what Nicola Sturgeon did.

If my route of making the argument in favour of independence, to talk about how we can do things better in Scotland and push public opinion above 60% instead of hovering around the 50% mark where we seem to have been stuck in for the last 8 years is a 90's strategy then I'll go ahead and put my Nevermind CD back on
 

i actually thought AAID was Ann Yeoman fir a while

[hampden_loon2878]

2 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

ha ha maybe!  It’s funny how th8ngs can change when push comes to shove and you are in the polling booth.

i hope come the referendum (that may never happen) the general mood will change, the very narrow vison of the current snp opens up and some of the 2014 spark is injected. the mood in 2013 compared to 2014 was night and day. we can only hope that is the case when the starting gun is fired

[aaid]

16 minutes ago, daviebee said:

Hang on.  Do you thing the next GE should be an "open indy negotiations" immediately in the event of 50% + 1 or not?  I reckon that's the best we'll get with that dithering wee nyaff, but obviously she's trying to dampen expectations already.

While I'm here, do you think Sturgeon should resign if her "no ifs, no buts" referendum fails to materialise next October?

So you’ve no answers then, all you can do is criticise from the sidelines.  

[aaid]

29 minutes ago, Freeedom said:

I don't know what your connection is to the SNP, but I find your uncritical, partisan defence of them at every turn to be troubling.

I would not have expected the SNP to immediately push for another referendum in the aftermath of the brexit vote, but I would have expected the party to make more of the argument that a democratic deficit exists for the people of Scotland as a member of the United Kingdom. To have another vote we needed to push support for independence up and highlighting that democratic deficit would have helped people to understand that being independent means that Scotland gets to make its own decisions.

The fact of the matter is though that we voted to remain a part of the UK and as a consequence we voted to put our future in the hands of voters largely living in England. If you believe in democracy as a fundamental principle then you do not campaign to overturn the largest democratic referendum held in the history of the UK, which is exactly what Nicola Sturgeon did.

If my route of making the argument in favour of independence, to talk about how we can do things better in Scotland and push public opinion above 60% instead of hovering around the 50% mark where we seem to have been stuck in for the last 8 years is a 90's strategy then I'll go ahead and put my Nevermind CD back on
 

I’m just an ordinary member, London Branch but as I’m hardly ever in London these days it makes it difficult.

I think there are very serious problems over the Brexit referendum, I’m not talking about electoral fraud or anything but it was pretty clear that people who voted to leave, voted for a variety of different reasons a lot of which are pretty obviously mutually exclusive and what the Tory party tried to do was to impose a very hard version of Brexit, which certainly was never articulated before the vote.   Even post 2019, Boris Johnson pushed through a deal which he knew couldn’t last but thought he could just tear up when he saw fit.

We’re seen the impacts of that play out, politically and economically, since 2016, it’s still nowhere near reconciled and there’s one hell of a buyer’s remorse going on in England right now.

My memory isn’t that there was any form of serious attempt to overturn the result, ie, not actually leave the EU.  There was a lot of concerted efforts to frustrate the Tory deal and to impose a softer version of Brexit, which wouldn’t have led to a lot of the mess we’re currently in.

I don’t see that process as being anti-democratic in the slightest as that deal was never put to people, no-one voted on that.

I think you’re putting forwards a very revisionist view of the aftermath of the Brexit referendum.

For all its flaws, at least the white paper in 2014 was something with gave detail on what the SNP were proposing to do after a win.

[Malcolm]

3 minutes ago, aaid said:

I’m just an ordinary member, London Branch but as I’m hardly ever in London these days it makes it difficult.

I think there are very serious problems over the Brexit referendum, I’m not talking about electoral fraud or anything but it was pretty clear that people who voted to leave, voted for a variety of different reasons a lot of which are pretty obviously mutually exclusive and what the Tory party tried to do was to impose a very hard version of Brexit, which certainly was never articulated before the vote.   Even post 2019, Boris Johnson pushed through a deal which he knew couldn’t last but thought he could just tear up when he saw fit.

We’re seen the impacts of that play out, politically and economically, since 2016, it’s still nowhere near reconciled and there’s one hell of a buyer’s remorse going on in England right now.

My memory isn’t that there was any form of serious attempt to overturn the result, ie, not actually leave the EU.  There was a lot of concerted efforts to frustrate the Tory deal and to impose a softer version of Brexit, which wouldn’t have led to a lot of the mess we’re currently in.

I don’t see that process as being anti-democratic in the slightest as that deal was never put to people, no-one voted on that.

I think you’re putting forwards a very revisionist view of the aftermath of the Brexit referendum.

For all its flaws, at least the white paper in 2014 was something with gave detail on what the SNP were proposing to do after a win.

 

I’m really not sure there is buyers remorse over brexit.  It was an ideological vote and the consequences have been obfuscated by both covid and putins illegal war in Ukraine.  Undoubtedly the GDP of the country has been damaged by brexit and will continue to be so.

at the time, brexiteers used data science and social media to influence the vote.

[aaid]

2 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

 

I’m really not sure there is buyers remorse over brexit.  It was an ideological vote and the consequences have been obfuscated by both covid and putins illegal war in Ukraine.  Undoubtedly the GDP of the country has been damaged by brexit and will continue to be so.

at the time, brexiteers used data science and social media to influence the vote.

There’s lots of people who haven’t got the sort of Brexit they thought they were going to get.

COVID and Ukraine are just excuses and help people to pretend that what they wanted was never going to happen. 

[exile]

Have been seeing a lot of Union-deniers out there - people insisting the UK is a unitary sovereign state, just one country. This is the staunch British nationalist view. As opposed to the traditional "Unionist" view that sees the UK as a multi-national family of nations (and that's what makes it special, best-of-both-worlds, etc.... the view that won 2014)

So what it looks like is that the emboldened Brit nat view is that there is no such thing as the Union - they are "Union deniers" - while the traditional Unionists are in denial that it's the Brit nat view that the Supreme Court just endorsed.

Strange days... though it has been on the cards for a while. What will Unionists do about it? Media not asking this question.