Indyref 2 (2)

[Ally Bongo]

As Phantom Power says

The SNP could dissolve the Scottish Parliament tomorrow

A UK General election locks out 16/17 year olds and EU Nationals

 

[stocky]

48 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

As Phantom Power says

The SNP could dissolve the Scottish Parliament tomorrow

A UK General election locks out 16/17 year olds and EU Nationals

 

Can they,?

 

 I read somewhere it had to be 75%

If not, like I said earlier, desolve and have Scottish election on same day as Westminster election 

 

[aaid]

54 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

As Phantom Power says

The SNP could dissolve the Scottish Parliament tomorrow

A UK General election locks out 16/17 year olds and EU Nationals

 

Technically they couldn’t, at least they couldn’t do it tomorrow, it would take several months.

Do you think that they and the country are ready to take that step and win in that timescale.  I certainly don’t. 

More haste, less speed. 

[Ally Bongo]

8 minutes ago, stocky said:

Can they,?

 

 I read somewhere it had to be 75%

 

 

You are right

There must be another way they could do it like resign all their seats maybe

[Alibi]

3 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

This is where  complications arise. You really cannot expect someone to ditch their political beliefs, even for independence. If I were a strong labour/anti SNP  independence supporter i would not be happy with that. There has to be another solution , something  the SNP will need to address. 

What this needs is a new party, a composite grouping including all the current pro-indy parties, to stand at the election, with a single manifesto of indy plus a commitment to hold another Scottish election after a pro-indy plebiscite victory has been achieved.  That way everyone can get behind it knowing that it's just a transition party and that "normal" political parties will resume after indy.  However there's probably little chance of a composite indy party happening as I would think NS wouldn't want to co-operate - she won't want to give up any of her control.  she has shown that with her extreme hostility to Alba (I think it's more of a personal feud with Alex Salmond that's behind that.  At least I think i read today that in a pleboscite election, votes for Alba and Greens would be counted, not just SNP votes, so that's something (although using a UK general election looks like a really stupid move given the inferior demographics due to the removal of young voters, EU citizens etc. from the electorate.  Not sure why that is being proposed but it's clearly daft.

[aaid]

6 minutes ago, Alibi said:

What this needs is a new party, a composite grouping including all the current pro-indy parties, to stand at the election, with a single manifesto of indy plus a commitment to hold another Scottish election after a pro-indy plebiscite victory has been achieved.  That way everyone can get behind it knowing that it's just a transition party and that "normal" political parties will resume after indy.  However there's probably little chance of a composite indy party happening as I would think NS wouldn't want to co-operate - she won't want to give up any of her control.  she has shown that with her extreme hostility to Alba (I think it's more of a personal feud with Alex Salmond that's behind that.  At least I think i read today that in a pleboscite election, votes for Alba and Greens would be counted, not just SNP votes, so that's something (although using a UK general election looks like a really stupid move given the inferior demographics due to the removal of young voters, EU citizens etc. from the electorate.  Not sure why that is being proposed but it's clearly daft.

If the 45 SNP MPs resigned tomorrow to force by-elections - which they could easily do - do you think Hanvey and MacAskill would do likewise?

[Malcolm]

4 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

If the next election is defacto referendum and you support independence you do not vote Labour, Tory or Lib Dems. Simple. It is not rocket science - a vote for the terrible threesome is a vote for the union.

who says it’s a defacto referendum on independence?  Just because Nicola proclaims this doesn’t make it so.

That would make me even less likely to vote snp.

 

 

[Caledonian Craig]

2 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

who says it’s a defacto referendum on independence?  Just because Nicola proclaims this doesn’t make it so.

That would make me even less likely to vote snp.

 

 

Please read before commenting eh? I said IF it is a defacto referendum. And to be honest I'd be mightily surprised if you have ever voted SNP or for independence or ever would.

[Bzzzz]

5 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

who says it’s a defacto referendum on independence?  Just because Nicola proclaims this doesn’t make it so.

That would make me even less likely to vote snp.

 

 

Obviously there has to be a caveat with it, a level to reach and promise of reaction. We need to know how a victory would be measured and what would be done with that victory. Personally I'm utterly fed up with what seems like endless pishing about, we've been told we're nothing but a colony of England, if we disagree then we need to do something about it rather than waving fucking flags and moaning. 

[daviebee]

36 minutes ago, aaid said:

If the 45 SNP MPs resigned tomorrow to force by-elections - which they could easily do - do you think Hanvey and MacAskill would do likewise?

Of course they would. If Hanvey and MacAskill proposed it do you think trough-slurpers like Wishart and Blackford would be for it?

[Bzzzz]

Colony: "a country or area under the full or partial political control of another country..."

[aaid]

5 minutes ago, daviebee said:

Of course they would. If Hanvey and MacAskill proposed it do you think trough-slurpers like Wishart and Blackford would be for it?

If they had any integrity whatsoever they’d have stood down and let their constituents decide when they joined Alba. 

[daviebee]

Just now, aaid said:

If they had any integrity whatsoever they’d have stood down and let their constituents decide when they joined Alba. 

True.  After all Dick Douglas did the exact same thing when he left Labour and joined the SNP bench.  Didn't he?

Still... not really what I asked but never mind.

[aaid]

1 minute ago, daviebee said:

True.  After all Dick Douglas did the exact same thing when he left Labour and joined the SNP bench.  Didn't he?

Still... not really what I asked but never mind.

I’d say the same about any serving politician that changes parties.  

[Malcolm]

25 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Please read before commenting eh? I said IF it is a defacto referendum. And to be honest I'd be mightily surprised if you have ever voted SNP or for independence or ever would.

The next Scottish election is about voting for members of the Scottish parliament and not for anyone to decide it’s a defacto referendum for anything else.  
 

voted snp in last general election and Scottish election. Voted yes in 2014.

[daviebee]

3 minutes ago, aaid said:

I’d say the same about any serving politician that changes parties.  

Good for you, we can agree on that.  Now, if Hanvey or MacAskill proposed that all pro-independence MPs should resign and force by-elections, do you think the likes of Wishart and Blackford would be for it or would they maybe get up and walk out in a coordinated move when either of them started speaking?

[Malcolm]

25 minutes ago, Bzzzz said:

Obviously there has to be a caveat with it, a level to reach and promise of reaction. We need to know how a victory would be measured and what would be done with that victory. Personally I'm utterly fed up with what seems like endless pishing about, we've been told we're nothing but a colony of England, if we disagree then we need to do something about it rather than waving fucking flags and moaning. 

the snp are too late and should have been pushing as soon as brexit happened.  I am on the fence now about independence, but if I was pushing for it, I would play the medium term game of 5-10 years,concentrate on the younger demographic… naturally old folk will die off and youngsters will become the new voters.

[aaid]

5 minutes ago, daviebee said:

Good for you, we can agree on that.  Now, if Hanvey or MacAskill proposed that all pro-independence MPs should resign and force by-elections, do you think the likes of Wishart and Blackford would be for it or would they maybe get up and walk out in a coordinated move when either of them started speaking?

Why should the tail wag the dog.  The best thing Alba can do is to get out of the way. 

[daviebee]

2 minutes ago, aaid said:

Why should the tail wag the dog.  The best thing Alba can do is to get out of the way. 

Maybe cos the dog is more interested in its place at the feeding tray.  Don't hold your breath waiting on the SNP MPs willingly giving up their salaries and expense accounts or waiting on the party turning its back on all that short money coming into the coffers.  I'd love to be wrong, but there is next to fck all chance of them resigning to force by-elections.

[Dave78]

43 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

the snp are too late and should have been pushing as soon as brexit happened.

 

Totally agree with that. I said on here years ago that i didn't understand the delay in getting legal clarity.

The time to move was when the British government was in complete disarray during that first month after the Brexit result.

43 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

 

I am on the fence now about independence, but if I was pushing for it, I would play the medium term game of 5-10 years,concentrate on the younger demographic… naturally old folk will die off and youngsters will become the new voters.

You know fine well that as people get older, they get more (small C) conservative, and less willing to take what they perceive are risks to their wealth.

 

[exile]

49 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

the snp are too late and should have been pushing as soon as brexit happened.  I am on the fence now about independence, but if I was pushing for it, I would play the medium term game of 5-10 years,concentrate on the younger demographic… naturally old folk will die off and youngsters will become the new voters.

But, but... aren't the younger demographic more likely to be more green and lefty and anti growth and woke and all the things that would push you away? 😉

[Dave78]

2 minutes ago, exile said:

But, but... aren't the younger demographic more likely to be more green and lefty and anti growth and woke and all the things that would push you away? 😉

Isn't it interesting that (in convenient hindsight) Malcolm says the SNP should have pushed for indy sooner, yet now advocates waiting 10 years (one might say 'a generation')?

[exile]

Saw newsnight there, including some guy Kierney who seemed to say Scotland was now completely boxed in forever (almost like Catalonia)...

 

Also Kirsty Wark being devil's advocate when interviewing 2 unionists, almost putting the case for self-determination as expressed by previous tory and labour politicians, which the current pair of party drones naturally disagreed with while agreeing with each other in a better togetherish way. But it was almost as if oor Kirsty herself was channelling the old romantic notion of the union of proud Scots as equals, as opposed to the modern muscular Britnat position adopted by the party machines. 

[Dave78]

5 minutes ago, exile said:

Saw newsnight there, including some guy Kierney who seemed to say Scotland was now completely boxed in forever (almost like Catalonia)...

Saw that. (I think his name was Tierney btw).

I couldn't disagree with anything he said. As difficult and inconvenient as it was to hear, he gave the cold hard legal reality.

 

5 minutes ago, exile said:

Also Kirsty Wark being devil's advocate when interviewing 2 unionists, almost putting the case for self-determination as expressed by previous tory and labour politicians, which the current pair of party drones naturally disagreed with while agreeing with each other in a better togetherish way. But it was almost as if oor Kirsty herself was channelling the old romantic notion of the union of proud Scots as equals, as opposed to the modern muscular Britnat position adopted by the party machines. 

At least Newsnight covered it. Switched over to Peston who devoted about 5 minutes, and he was just a nodding dog to Ruth Davidson before i switched off.

Edited November 24, 2022 by Dave78

[mccaughey85]

Supreme court have probably helped the indy movement with that decision. Westminster will be under immense pressure to grant indyref2 especially if the polls start showing clear majoritys for it. The indy movement gets to ramp up the pressure with the argument that we are being held against our will. 

Ppl just have to make sure they vote mostly snp in the next couple elections although i doubt that happens. The country seems to be falling apart with all these strikes and the cost of living etc. Ppl will need someone tangible to blame and sturgeon and the snp could be it. Also ppl dont like the same government being in power for too long and may want change.