Indyref 2 (2)

[Caledonian Craig]

All those who claim to support independence but vote Labour, Scottish Lib Dems or even Tory need to man up and take their vote to a pro-independence party.

[scotlad]

3 hours ago, aaid said:

I saw Councillor Graham Campbell sitting in the Supreme Court for the judgement.  That chancer would turn up for the opening of an envelope if the cameras were there. 

I take it you've seen this too:

 

 

 

[aaid]

3 minutes ago, scotlad said:

I take it you've seen this too:

 

 

 

Yes, total chancer but apparently he’s untouchable. 

[Bzzzz]

31 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

I actually think that it's better to have had a clear cut judgement rather than the SC kicking the proverbial can down the road. People in Scotland need to be clear that any pretence that the UK is a voluntary union has died today. It also means that democracy is dead in Scotland as no matter how we vote it can be ignored. 

We knew that anyway, now we have proof. 

[stocky]

1 hour ago, exile said:

In the narrow terms of its remit, the devolution settlement, and constitutional affairs reserved, and the Supremet Court being what it is, 

One suggestion that caught my eye is: what if all SNP MPs resigned and had a sort of national by election?

That would be a de facto referendum living 

This, but also all resign in Holy Rude as well.

Have elections on same day.

16-17 year olds could vote as could European citz.

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by stocky

[sjd1972]

Is Adam Busby still around? 💣😜

[TDYER63]

2 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

I actually think that it's better to have had a clear cut judgement rather than the SC kicking the proverbial can down the road. People in Scotland need to be clear that any pretence that the UK is a voluntary union has died today. It also means that democracy is dead in Scotland as no matter how we vote it can be ignored. 

This.

I know that James O’Brien, by his own admission,  is possibly swayed due to his dislike of this UK government, but his video shows that  it’s just not greetin faced nationalists that think it’s unequal.

Nor do I  think he would feel any different if it were Labour in power  as many Labour supporters voted for Brexit and Starmer is adamant there will be no referendum,  so in this regard this is nothing between the Tories and Labour.

It just needs some of our own country to see this for what it really is. 

[aaid]

8 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

This.

I know that James O’Brien, by his own admission,  is possibly swayed due to his dislike of this UK government, but his video shows that  it’s just not greetin faced nationalists that think it’s unequal.

Nor do I  think he would feel any different if it were Labour in power  as many Labour supporters voted for Brexit and Starmer is adamant there will be no referendum,  so in this regard this is nothing between the Tories and Labour.

It just needs some of our own country to see this for what it really is. 

That last sentence nails it and in reality it’s only around 10% to shift the dial completely.

[Malcolm]

3 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

All those who claim to support independence but vote Labour, Scottish Lib Dems or even Tory need to man up and take their vote to a pro-independence party.

Why? Parties are not not single issue. You might support independence but not the snp.

[Caledonian Craig]

5 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

Why? Parties are not not single issue. You might support independence but not the snp.

If the next election is defacto referendum and you support independence you do not vote Labour, Tory or Lib Dems. Simple. It is not rocket science - a vote for the terrible threesome is a vote for the union.

[Hertsscot]

Any comment from the Welsh? As far as I can tell, only England can leave the UK as they have majority of MPs and N.Ireland due to GFA. Welsh and ourselves are stuck according to SC judgment. I'd be interested in Drakeford's opinion.

[exile]

1 hour ago, TDYER63 said:

This.

I know that James O’Brien, by his own admission,  is possibly swayed due to his dislike of this UK government, but his video shows that  it’s just not greetin faced nationalists that think it’s unequal.

Nor do I  think he would feel any different if it were Labour in power  as many Labour supporters voted for Brexit and Starmer is adamant there will be no referendum,  so in this regard this is nothing between the Tories and Labour.

It just needs some of our own country to see this for what it really is. 

This is important. It shows that the "nothing to see here/back to day job" stance of the unionist parties is just political spin.

 

I wonder if /when the penny will drop, that this is not a simple quick win for unionists, far less a decisive win, but actually it fundamentally undermines the very basis of Unionism. The whole schtick of unionism is that Scotland is a proud nation, engaged in a union of equals, as a founder member, and so punches above itss weight, the best of both worlds, etc.

But this ruling says that Scotland is voluntarily submissive to a unitary UK as a devolved region. This is not the rosy Union that was flogged in the dying days of indyref 2014. That rosy union no longer exists, and it cannot be sold again. 

[TDYER63]

19 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

If the next election is defacto referendum and you support independence you do not vote Labour, Tory or Lib Dems. Simple. It is not rocket science - a vote for the terrible threesome is a vote for the union.

This is where  complications arise. You really cannot expect someone to ditch their political beliefs, even for independence. If I were a strong labour/anti SNP  independence supporter i would not be happy with that. There has to be another solution , something  the SNP will need to address. 

[hampden_loon2878]

7 hours ago, aaid said:

Explain to me how the Claim of Right works then?

Don’t worry, this is a rhetorical question.

its not for me to say how its works, its a legislation that "should" be every bit as relevant as the English parliament being sovereign. 

[aaid]

3 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

its not for me to say how its works, its a legislation that "should" be every bit as relevant as the English parliament being sovereign. 

So the only thing you think we have left is something which you admit you don’t understand. 

[TDYER63]

6 minutes ago, exile said:

This is important. It shows that the "nothing to see here/back to day job" stance of the unionist parties is just political spin.

 

I wonder if /when the penny will drop, that this is not a simple quick win for unionists, far less a decisive win, but actually it fundamentally undermines the very basis of Unionism. The whole schtick of unionism is that Scotland is a proud nation, engaged in a union of equals, as a founder member, and so punches above itss weight, the best of both worlds, etc.

But this ruling says that Scotland is voluntarily submissive to a unitary UK as a devolved region. This is not the rosy Union that was flogged in the dying days of indyref 2014. That rosy union no longer exists, and it cannot be sold again. 

Nothing can ever be equal when one country has 84% of the people in the ‘union’. That in itself should be obvious to most folk, though it clearly isn’t. This ruling does drum it home though and it is getting a fair bit of attention . 
Like her or loathe her NS seems to be making the most of it : 

‘’Former Supreme Court judge Lord Sumption says the response of Scotland's first minister to today's court ruling "is a political manoeuvre" and describes her as "a very shrewd politician".

Nicola Sturgeon earlier said she was disappointed in the Supreme Court's decision that the Scottish government cannot hold an independence referendum without the UK government's consent.

"It enables her to blame everyone other than herself for not having a referendum," Lord Sumption tells BBC Radio 4's World At One’ 

 

 

[aaid]

Something that I’ve been thinking for the last year or so is that too many people on the pro-Indy side - and I include myself in this - have spent their time arguing and debating about the process of having a democratic event and what that should look like and far too little time doing what is important, which is about doing the work to shift that dial up to 60% and above and to get it to stick there.   That’s what will ultimately deliver independence.  

I view this as being a case of the irresistible force - the Indy movement - meeting the immovable object - the UKG.   I don’t think the force is irresistible yet but I don’t believe the object is as immovable as it thinks it is. 

[hampden_loon2878]

34 minutes ago, aaid said:

So the only thing you think we have left is something which you admit you don’t understand. 

you do realise how much of a condescending arsehole you come across? 

[King Of Paisley]

Hopefully this will be big news in Europe where hopefully the UK will be seen to be even morenof a pariah, isolated tyrannical state

[hampden_loon2878]

maybe because i am stuck in the middle of the north sea but i am just not feeling the drive for independence, it may build on the back of the blocking democracy. I hope it does but i am just getting the vibe that everyone is a bit sick of it all

Edited November 23, 2022 by hampden_loon2878

[hampden_loon2878]

2 minutes ago, King Of Paisley said:

Hopefully this will be big news in Europe where hopefully the UK will be seen to be even morenof a pariah, isolated tyrannical state

how does that help independence? 

[King Of Paisley]

8 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

how does that help independence? 

Because given what has happened with Brexit the UKG can't obtain support from EU members in trying to veto an independent Scotland in applying for membership (remember the so-called Spanish veto that was being parroted by Better Together?). And I'll bet there will be a growing number of EU politicians who will voice support given their hostility towards Westmonster

[Hertsscot]

11 minutes ago, hampden_loon2878 said:

maybe because i am stuck in the middle of the north sea but i am just not feeling the drive for independence, it may build on the back of the blocking democracy. I hope it does but i am just getting the vibe that everyone is a bit sick of it all

I get that, Covid, recession, cost of living crisis, Indy in fighting, people just struggling to keep their heads above water but the alternative is yet more of the shit show that is the UK. How anyone in their right mind could be happy with that is beyond me. Maybe the crass SC decision will provide a catalyst but I agree the Indy movement needs to a bit more energy from somewhere. 

[Caledonian Craig]

2 hours ago, TDYER63 said:

This is where  complications arise. You really cannot expect someone to ditch their political beliefs, even for independence. If I were a strong labour/anti SNP  independence supporter i would not be happy with that. There has to be another solution , something  the SNP will need to address. 

It will be clear when canvassing starts though. If you want independence then you vote for an independence-backing party in the form of SNP, Greens, Alba or such-like. If you support the union tou vote Tory, Labour, Lib Dem or such-like. Drill it home that its a defacto referendum. If some prefer to vote for a party that best suits their needs then sobeit as evidently they cannot be so fussed about the constitutional question.

[aaid]

Sturgeon’s speech to the rally this evening.