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On 9/9/2022 at 9:37 AM, Diamond Scot said:

If every new group of U21s can produce 2 first team starters then the system is working well.

If you look at the team recently that has been achieved with Gilmour and Patterson. And although Hickey bypassed the U21s, I would include him in that group.

The problem that we have had in years gone by is that it has taken players until they are about 25/26 to break into the team / squad which then leaves a relatively short period in international terms for them to gain experience and make an impact.

If you look at most successful Int teams, they have multiple players who have been regulars since they were 21 and younger.

I think we really need 4 or 5 from each U21 squad to have real potential for the senior squad. Players with real quality will totally bypass the U21s hopefully.

You look at Spain and they have guys like Gavi and Pedri who have been in the main squad since they were 17/18, I'm sure they have played for some of the Under groups too. You see the same for France, Holland, Brazil etc and they're not scared to put them in. I think we are moving that way with the likes of Gilmour, Patterson etc but we need more quality coming through young, getting in and around the squad with the potential to be there for 15 years.

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10 hours ago, Kirk said:

I think we really need 4 or 5 from each U21 squad to have real potential for the senior squad. Players with real quality will totally bypass the U21s hopefully.

You look at Spain and they have guys like Gavi and Pedri who have been in the main squad since they were 17/18, I'm sure they have played for some of the Under groups too. You see the same for France, Holland, Brazil etc and they're not scared to put them in. I think we are moving that way with the likes of Gilmour, Patterson etc but we need more quality coming through young, getting in and around the squad with the potential to be there for 15 years.

I think it's a little unfair to expect our best players to skip the u21s. Everyone develops at different rates. Physically and mentally, they might not be ready, even if they already have the ability.

Gemmill can clearly see Doak will be too good for the u21s very soon and is getting him in early. Hopefully the same with Rory Wilson. 

Saying all that, if we have a 21/22 year old with twenty+ u21 caps, and still hasn't given any impression he's good enough for the senior team, then it is probably worth dropping him for a younger guy with more potential. I'm thinking of the likes of Welsh and Middleton.

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Yeah, some players will bypass the U21s (and various other age-groups) and some will not regardless of how good they are. Looking at other national teams, Mbappe for instance did skip France u21s, only playing at U17 and U19 level but Haaland didn't skip Norway's u21s and played at every level from U15. They took different development routes but are probably the two pre-eminent young strikers in Europe right now. Mbappe has 28 goals and 58 caps at aged 23 and Haaland has 20 in just 21 starts at age 22 so it's fair to say their respective development paths have had little negative impact on their goalscoring once they reach the top level.

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13 minutes ago, Eassy said:

Doak looks frightening given his age, could be a shoe in for the senior side before long if he can get out and play some first team fitbaw, getting rave reviews at Liverpool.

Yeh he looks special. Hopefully goes out on loan to somewhere. Maybe a league1 or 2 team. See how he does there for half a season.

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Just now, mccaughey85 said:

Yeh he looks special. Hopefully goes out on loan to somewhere. Maybe a league1 or 2 team. See how he does there for half a season.

I'd rather not have a brilliant 16 year old talent out on loan in League One or League Two.

He would get the living fuck kicked out of him by the talentless hammer throwers that make up most of the teams in those leagues.

He should stay at Liverpool and develop.

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2 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

I'd rather not have a brilliant 16 year old talent out on loan in League One or League Two.

He would get the living fuck kicked out of him by the talentless hammer throwers that make up most of the teams in those leagues.

He should stay at Liverpool and develop.

Eh? The lads never played at any proper pro football barring 1/2 apps for celtic. He might not even be good enough for league1 level(england). Elliot anderson went out on loan to a league 2 side and showed he was easily too good for that level, why not do similar with doak. 

Callum mcgregor went out on loan to notts county when he was 20 and he got a good run of games there and played really well. 

All our best players we have started out playing lower level football when they were in their teens.

What makes you think doak at 16 year old is too good for that level. You do realise how poor epl youth football is. Try watching some highlights and you will see how bad it is. Even u21s international football isnt the best of standards. Especially cohntries like ourselves and northern ireland. 

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5 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

100% this. 

What has doak done so far in his career to suggest hes too good to be put out on loan. What level do you think is fair considering hes pretty much never played professional football? The lad could end up being another karamoko dembele or feruz.

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15 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Eh? The lads never played at any proper pro football barring 1/2 apps for celtic. He might not even be good enough for league1 level(england). Elliot anderson went out on loan to a league 2 side and showed he was easily too good for that level, why not do similar with doak. 

Callum mcgregor went out on loan to notts county when he was 20 and he got a good run of games there and played really well. 

All our best players we have started out playing lower level football when they were in their teens.

What makes you think doak at 16 year old is too good for that level. You do realise how poor epl youth football is. Try watching some highlights and you will see how bad it is. Even u21s international football isnt the best of standards. Especially cohntries like ourselves and northern ireland. 

Anderson and McGregor weren't sixteen though.

Anyway, Liverpool will not send him out on loan.

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2 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

Anderson and McGregor weren't sixteen though.

Anyway, Liverpool will not send him out on loan.

He turns 17 in a couple of months. You suggesting liverpool never send him out on loan?

Most liverpool youngsters get sent out on loan at some point. Not sure why doak would be different. He looks amazing but thats at u18s level. He might be rubbish when playing against adult men which is what hes going to have to do at some point if he wants to have the slightest chance of making it at liverpool.

 

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4 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

He turns 17 in a couple of months. You suggesting liverpool never send him out on loan?

Most liverpool youngsters get sent out on loan at some point. Not sure why doak would be different. He looks amazing but thats at u18s level. He might be rubbish when playing against adult men which is what hes going to have to do at some point if he wants to have the slightest chance of making it at liverpool.

I never suggested that.

They don't send sixteen or seventeen year olds out on loan. Most clubs don't do that.

He's better off learning finer points of the game from top coaches at Liverpool for the next eighteen months or so. Then he can go out on loan.

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41 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

I'd rather not have a brilliant 16 year old talent out on loan in League One or League Two.

He would get the living fuck kicked out of him by the talentless hammer throwers that make up most of the teams in those leagues.

He should stay at Liverpool and develop.

Only if they can catch him. 🏃💨

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45 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Eh? The lads never played at any proper pro football barring 1/2 apps for celtic. He might not even be good enough for league1 level(england). Elliot anderson went out on loan to a league 2 side and showed he was easily too good for that level, why not do similar with doak. 

Callum mcgregor went out on loan to notts county when he was 20 and he got a good run of games there and played really well. 

All our best players we have started out playing lower level football when they were in their teens.

What makes you think doak at 16 year old is too good for that level. You do realise how poor epl youth football is. Try watching some highlights and you will see how bad it is. Even u21s international football isnt the best of standards. Especially cohntries like ourselves and northern ireland. 

I'm sure Mr Klopp will have other ideas about what's best for his development. And if he is good as the reports are saying then he won't be goimg out on loan.

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24 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

I never suggested that.

They don't send sixteen or seventeen year olds out on loan. Most clubs don't do that.

He's better off learning finer points of the game from top coaches at Liverpool for the next eighteen months or so. Then he can go out on loan.

Plenty of epl clubs send 17 year olds out on loan. Harry kane and jack grealish being examples. 

If this lad doak is the real deal then i would prefer he gets proper first team football rather than u18s which is rubbish standard in comparison to even league1. Most of our best players played lower league football at 17 so i dont see the problem with doak doing it as well. Its a much better learning curve than pissing about in epl youth football which has shown proven statistically that it isnt good for scottish youngsters development.

 

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5 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Plenty of epl clubs send 17 year olds out on loan. Harry kane and jack grealish being examples. 

If this lad doak is the real deal then i would prefer he gets proper first team football rather than u18s which is rubbish standard in comparison to even league1. Most of our best players played lower league football at 17 so i dont see the problem with doak doing it as well. Its a much better learning curve than pissing about in epl youth football which has shown proven statistically that it isnt good for scottish youngsters development.

 

That's nice, dear.

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31 minutes ago, King Of Paisley said:

I'm sure Mr Klopp will have other ideas about what's best for his development. And if he is good as the reports are saying then he won't be goimg out on loan.

Why would klopp not send him out on loan? You think hes going to fast track him to the first team?

He might but its unlikely. Were you one of the ppl in here who thought calvin ramsay was going to instantly jump into the liverpool first team. Doak looks special but its unlikely he gets in the liverpool first team this season or next. Klopp probably understands that u18s football is a long way off the standard required and he will likely choose to see how doak copes in actual mens football before he sticks him in the first team at liverpool. He might chuck him in next season in efl cup games or the odd league appearance if the bench but most likely doak will head out on loan at some point in the next couple of years. 

Personally i think league 1 or spl would be decent level so that we can see how he copes playing every week in professional football where the pressure is on to get results.

Its been the same old story in here over the years regarding young players who get signed up by big epl clubs. Fans think they are the next messiah because of some good performances at youth level and then when they struggle to make it at a decent level ppl are surprised.

Mikey johnston was excellent at youth level. His goal against england u21s was amazing but now hes struggling and will probably not make it at celtic. 

Its a massive leap to go from youth football to even english championship level.

 

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7 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Why would klopp not send him out on loan? You think hes going to fast track him to the first team?

He might but its unlikely. Were you one of the ppl in here who thought calvin ramsay was going to instantly jump into the liverpool first team. Doak looks special but its unlikely he gets in the liverpool first team this season or next. Klopp probably understands that u18s football is a long way off the standard required and he will likely choose to see how doak copes in actual mens football before he sticks him in the first team at liverpool. He might chuck him in next season in efl cup games or the odd league appearance if the bench but most likely doak will head out on loan at some point in the next couple of years. 

Personally i think league 1 or spl would be decent level so that we can see how he copes playing every week in professional football where the pressure is on to get results.

Its been the same old story in here over the years regarding young players who get signed up by big epl clubs. Fans think they are the next messiah because of some good performances at youth level and then when they struggle to make it at a decent level ppl are surprised.

Mikey johnston was excellent at youth level. His goal against england u21s was amazing but now hes struggling and will probably not make it at celtic. 

Its a massive leap to go from youth football to even english championship level.

 

Like I said, I'll ignore your ramblings and leave Doak's development in the hands of a world class manager.

Your comparison with Doak to Mikey Johnston is laughable

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16 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

That's nice, dear.

So you want to wait until hes 19 before sending him out on loan or do you think hes going to be fast tracked into liverpools first team?

I think he might get fast tracked but theres a good chance he goes out on loan eventually.

He looks special and thats why i want him playing proper football as soon as possible even if it is only league1. Ideally english championship would be good as well but its quite a leap in standard for the lad and league1 would be a safer bet for him to flourish in.

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4 minutes ago, King Of Paisley said:

Like I said, I'll ignore your ramblings and leave Doak's development in the hands of a world class manager.

Your comparison with Doak to Mikey Johnston is laughable

Whys it laughable. Johnston has actually played in the europa league and scored as well as playing on and off for celtic for several years. Often playing well. Hes struggled with injuries and performances have been poor which has set him back but now hes playing top flight in portugal.

Doaks played youth football and you suddenly expect him to be a superstar. You have heard of robbie foy, islam feruz, gary mackay-steven etc. These guys all excelled at epl youth level and now some of them dont even play pro football. Being a youth star means nothing. Just ask freddy adu and the hundreds of hyped up youth players over the years who never made it at the top level.

Mikey johnston has at least made it as a pro footballer doak has yet to even do that.

Just to be clear i do think doak will make it at a decent level but the level of expectation from some ppl in here is strange when regarding our epl youth prospects. Lets wait and see how they do in proper mens football before we get excited.

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