Under 21s

[ceudmilefailte]

1 hour ago, mccaughey85 said:

What has doak done so far in his career to suggest hes too good to be put out on loan. What level do you think is fair considering hes pretty much never played professional football? The lad could end up being another karamoko dembele or feruz.

He’s 16,thats too young to go on loan. He's better of getting another year's top class coaching at an elite club before a loan move is even considered. 

Just my opinion. 

[King Of Paisley]

4 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Whys it laughable. Johnston has actually played in the europa league and scored as well as playing on and off for celtic for several years. Often playing well. Hes struggled with injuries and performances have been poor which has set him back but now hes playing top flight in portugal.

Doaks played youth football and you suddenly expect him to be a superstar. You have heard of robbie foy, islam feruz, gary mackay-steven etc. These guys all excelled at epl youth level and now some of them dont even play pro football. Being a youth star means nothing. Just ask freddy adu and the hundreds of hyped up youth players over the years who never made it at the top level.

Mikey johnston has at least made it as a pro footballer doak has yet to even do that.

Just to be clear i do think doak will make it at a decent level but the level of expectation from some ppl in here is strange when regarding our epl youth prospects. Lets wait and see how they do in proper mens football before we get excited.

No.problem, Andy Roxburgh.....

[mccaughey85]

2 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

He’s 16,thats too young to go on loan. He's better of getting another year's top class coaching at an elite club before a loan move is even considered. 

Just my opinion. 

Hes 17 in less than 2 months. He would be going on loan at 17. If hes the real deal then he should be able to cope with league1 at 17. Fraser and mcginn played spl at 17. Che adams played played league 1 at 17. I dont see the problem with doak doing the same rather than wasting away playing epl youth football which has been proven not to develop our players anyway.

 

 

[ThistleWhistle]

Game on iplayer just now.  1-1 after 25 minutes 

[ProudScot]

14 minutes ago, ThistleWhistle said:

Game on iplayer just now.  1-1 after 25 minutes 

Tommy Conway looks rapid

[Eassy]

On 9/23/2022 at 9:55 PM, mccaughey85 said:

Whys it laughable. Johnston has actually played in the europa league and scored as well as playing on and off for celtic for several years. Often playing well. Hes struggled with injuries and performances have been poor which has set him back but now hes playing top flight in portugal.

Doaks played youth football and you suddenly expect him to be a superstar. You have heard of robbie foy, islam feruz, gary mackay-steven etc. These guys all excelled at epl youth level and now some of them dont even play pro football. Being a youth star means nothing. Just ask freddy adu and the hundreds of hyped up youth players over the years who never made it at the top level.

Mikey johnston has at least made it as a pro footballer doak has yet to even do that.

Just to be clear i do think doak will make it at a decent level but the level of expectation from some ppl in here is strange when regarding our epl youth prospects. Lets wait and see how they do in proper mens football before we get excited.

It’s not so much expectation it’s just quite rare you see a 16 year old being snapped up by a club like Liverpool and then bypass 3 age groups to play with the 21’s and also be a standout at that level. 
 

a loan to a league 1 or 2 club may be risky this early but I’d also say there’s a chance he’s above that level already, Harvey Elliot at Liverpool is probably a good path for him to follow.

[ThistleWhistle]

3 minutes ago, ProudScot said:

Tommy Conway looks rapid

If can get him some service hopefully get a goal.  I'm struggling a bit with the strips.

[Ak91]

My biggest frustration with Scotland/SFA is the u21s. We are coached terribly. 

[Blantyre_Braveheart]

5 minutes ago, Ak91 said:

My biggest frustration with Scotland/SFA is the u21s. We are coached terribly. 

We are just constantly playing long balls from GK and our CBs.

 

We've got good technical players, we don't need to be playing this way. It's the managers choice and it results in poor displays from good young players.

 

Gemmell really needs to go and has needed to go for 4/5 years. The problem is the SFA would just hire another archaic dinosaur. 

[ErsatzThistle]

Scot Gemmill's match tactics are clearly based on what he learned from Craig Brown. Football has moved on from those tactics.

He has got to go.

[Ak91]

We have better player than NI and yet they play the better football. 

[mccaughey85]

10 hours ago, Eassy said:

It’s not so much expectation it’s just quite rare you see a 16 year old being snapped up by a club like Liverpool and then bypass 3 age groups to play with the 21’s and also be a standout at that level. 
 

a loan to a league 1 or 2 club may be risky this early but I’d also say there’s a chance he’s above that level already, Harvey Elliot at Liverpool is probably a good path for him to follow.

Epl clubs snap up youngsters like doak all the time. They buy lads like doak with the 1/20 chance he becomes good enough for the first team. Fair enough doak does look special and playing scotland u21s football at 16 is impressive but hes still pretty much  unproven at any kind of level.

League1 is poor but if this kid is the real deal then he should be able to go there and shine. I just want him to succeed and if that means playing lower league football then so be it. Hes not going to get in the liverpool first team for at least a couple of years and playing epl youth football has never been a succesful route for our players.

Let him play half a season league 1 rather than the likes of chelsea u18s. League 1 has seasoned pros who are under pressure to get results and he will learn more from that imo. Then next season put him to an english championship side and see if he copes at that level. Very few 17/18 years olds get into epl sides nowadays. Theres just too much money and they can fill their benches with top talent from around the world.

[Scots_Wha_Hae]

On 9/23/2022 at 9:55 PM, mccaughey85 said:

Whys it laughable. Johnston has actually played in the europa league and scored as well as playing on and off for celtic for several years. Often playing well. Hes struggled with injuries and performances have been poor which has set him back but now hes playing top flight in portugal.

Doaks played youth football and you suddenly expect him to be a superstar. You have heard of robbie foy, islam feruz, gary mackay-steven etc. These guys all excelled at epl youth level and now some of them dont even play pro football. Being a youth star means nothing. Just ask freddy adu and the hundreds of hyped up youth players over the years who never made it at the top level.

Mikey johnston has at least made it as a pro footballer doak has yet to even do that.

Just to be clear i do think doak will make it at a decent level but the level of expectation from some ppl in here is strange when regarding our epl youth prospects. Lets wait and see how they do in proper mens football before we get excited.

His development pathway entirely depends on how good he is and at this point it is hard to say. He has clearly done very well at the levels he has played so far however, as has been pointed out by others (including yourself), the standard at those levels is debatable. Yes he has excelled at EPL U18 level and now at international U21 level but tbh neither has been of a great standard (some U21 teams are excellent, but NI are not one of them). The U19 Champs League is a good standard and he was good there so that’s a promising sign. If he is a genuine generational talent then skipping a loan to the lower leagues is very possible, like Phil Fodden or Jude Bellingham for instance. If he is a very good player then a loan may be necessary. His next step logically IMO is reserve EPL football. His performance there will dictate the next step.

As an aside, Calvin Ramsay has been injured since he joined Liverpool. He is back in training now and all of his training has been with the first team group. I expect him to make his debut this year and nothing that has happened so far makes me doubt this will happen.

[King Of Paisley]

The last good U21 coach we had was Rainer Bonhof.

Imagine what this current crop would be capable of under his guidance

[aaid]

10 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Epl clubs snap up youngsters like doak all the time. They buy lads like doak with the 1/20 chance he becomes good enough for the first team. Fair enough doak does look special and playing scotland u21s football at 16 is impressive but hes still pretty much  unproven at any kind of level.

League1 is poor but if this kid is the real deal then he should be able to go there and shine. I just want him to succeed and if that means playing lower league football then so be it. Hes not going to get in the liverpool first team for at least a couple of years and playing epl youth football has never been a succesful route for our players.

Let him play half a season league 1 rather than the likes of chelsea u18s. League 1 has seasoned pros who are under pressure to get results and he will learn more from that imo. Then next season put him to an english championship side and see if he copes at that level. Very few 17/18 years olds get into epl sides nowadays. Theres just too much money and they can fill their benches with top talent from around the world.

Talented 16 year old kids get bullied in League 1 unless they are physically strong enough, like Rooney was, in which case they’re good enough to play in the EPL.   They’re very much the exception.  

The truth is that young players go one of three ways at big clubs.  They drop out of the game completely - injury, attitude, etc., they get released and have a career at the lower levels at a standard more applicable to their abilities.  The very few go on to make the top level.   

Walter Smith said - when he was manager of Scotland - that, in every team in every academy, there are 2 possibly 3 players that *might* have a chance of making it and everyone who knows anything knows who they are. The problem is that you can’t play with 2 or 3 players, you need a squad of 20 or so.  Clubs don’t necessarily lie to them about their prospects but they have to keep them on side.   The attitude of friends and family might be less realistic though.

The idea that players that would be good enough to play at the highest level - ie international - get ruined by going to one of the bigger club’s academies is pretty much a myth.  If they’re good enough - career limiting injuries aside, which can happen anywhere but they’ve the best chance of being treated properly - they’ll make it through, either through the club they join or by dropping down and building back up.  If they don’t have the combination of talent and mental strength to come out of an academy with a pro contract at a decent level, they’ll never be good enough to play at international level for Scotland. 

[Eassy]

On 9/26/2022 at 1:04 AM, mccaughey85 said:

Epl clubs snap up youngsters like doak all the time. They buy lads like doak with the 1/20 chance he becomes good enough for the first team. Fair enough doak does look special and playing scotland u21s football at 16 is impressive but hes still pretty much  unproven at any kind of level.

League1 is poor but if this kid is the real deal then he should be able to go there and shine. I just want him to succeed and if that means playing lower league football then so be it. Hes not going to get in the liverpool first team for at least a couple of years and playing epl youth football has never been a succesful route for our players.

Let him play half a season league 1 rather than the likes of chelsea u18s. League 1 has seasoned pros who are under pressure to get results and he will learn more from that imo. Then next season put him to an english championship side and see if he copes at that level. Very few 17/18 years olds get into epl sides nowadays. Theres just too much money and they can fill their benches with top talent from around the world.

There’s definitely a case for it mate but you could argue playing in the UEFA youth league for Liverpool at 16 is going to do him more good than the likes of Accrington.

Playing against 19/20 year olds at 16 is still a huge physical difference.

Aye a get that the big English clubs buy youngsters every year but they paid a hefty fee for him and he’s not just holding his own, he’s standing out at the highest possible U19 level.

[Caledonian Craig]

On 9/26/2022 at 1:04 AM, mccaughey85 said:

Epl clubs snap up youngsters like doak all the time. They buy lads like doak with the 1/20 chance he becomes good enough for the first team. Fair enough doak does look special and playing scotland u21s football at 16 is impressive but hes still pretty much  unproven at any kind of level.

League1 is poor but if this kid is the real deal then he should be able to go there and shine. I just want him to succeed and if that means playing lower league football then so be it. Hes not going to get in the liverpool first team for at least a couple of years and playing epl youth football has never been a succesful route for our players.

Let him play half a season league 1 rather than the likes of chelsea u18s. League 1 has seasoned pros who are under pressure to get results and he will learn more from that imo. Then next season put him to an english championship side and see if he copes at that level. Very few 17/18 years olds get into epl sides nowadays. Theres just too much money and they can fill their benches with top talent from around the world.

In an earlier post you said he could be another Islam Feruz or Dembele. That is a big insult to the lad. He has already played twice for Celtic and everyone that has worked with him commend his attitude, his willing to graft, train hard, learn from the best and implement it into his game. He has already achieved so much more than Feruz who sunk without trace and has already given up the sport and is selling designer caps at the age of 27.

Still not convinced? Dig around on Liverpool FC websites to hear how highly thought of he is. Rumours suggest he will soon be asked to train with the first team - that alone says what they think of him. Terence Trent-Alexander found his way to the top going through the same route as Doak. He is learning all of the time and is scoring regularly at the highest levels of youth/U-21 football. I would not rule out Doak playing in a League Cup game or two at the start of next season.

[Scots_Wha_Hae]

35 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

In an earlier post you said he could be another Islam Feruz or Dembele. That is a big insult to the lad. He has already played twice for Celtic and everyone that has worked with him commend his attitude, his willing to graft, train hard, learn from the best and implement it into his game. He has already achieved so much more than Feruz who sunk without trace and has already given up the sport and is selling designer caps at the age of 27.

Still not convinced? Dig around on Liverpool FC websites to hear how highly thought of he is. Rumours suggest he will soon be asked to train with the first team - that alone says what they think of him. Terence Trent-Alexander found his way to the top going through the same route as Doak. He is learning all of the time and is scoring regularly at the highest levels of youth/U-21 football. I would not rule out Doak playing in a League Cup game or two at the start of next season.

If he can be mentioned in the same breath as guys like Trent and Foden then we won't have long to wait. That standard of player breaks through at around 18. I have my doubts, but that's only because I remember the hype around the likes of Robbie Foy all those years ago, not to mention the likes of Feruz or Dembele more recently. I wouldn't compare the players, its more an inability to dare and hope for a genuine generational attacking player to break through for Scotland.

[Caledonian Craig]

3 minutes ago, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

If he can be mentioned in the same breath as guys like Trent and Foden then we won't have long to wait. That standard of player breaks through at around 18. I have my doubts, but that's only because I remember the hype around the likes of Robbie Foy all those years ago, not to mention the likes of Feruz or Dembele more recently. I wouldn't compare the players, its more an inability to dare and hope for a genuine generational attacking player to break through for Scotland.

Big differences - Feruz never even played for Celtic before moving on after years of no progress. He went to Chelsea, made no impression and a few years later he is selling caps at the age of 27. Dembele is of no interest to us now as he has chosen to represent England. As for Robbie Foy well the only similarity with Doak is that he was at Liverpool. He did not make the impact with those at the club that Doak has. He had no experience at any level at Liverpool unlike Doak. Never made any great impression at U-17,18 or 21 level unlike Doak who already has goals for us at those levels.

[Scots_Wha_Hae]

5 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Big differences - Feruz never even played for Celtic before moving on after years of no progress. He went to Chelsea, made no impression and a few years later he is selling caps at the age of 27. Dembele is of no interest to us now as he has chosen to represent England. As for Robbie Foy well the only similarity with Doak is that he was at Liverpool. He did not make the impact with those at the club that Doak has. He had no experience at any level at Liverpool unlike Doak. Never made any great impression at U-17,18 or 21 level unlike Doak who already has goals for us at those levels.

Like I say, I wasn't comparing the standard of the players but simply commenting on my own inability to hope for a player of absolute top standard to emerge.

We are of course in quite a different place to when some of those names came to the fore with, I would argue, at least one world class player and several on the cusp of that standard so perhaps we are all more rational in our expectations than we might have been previously.

Incidentally, the Dembele situation is not yet decided - he could yet recommit to Scotland (or Ivory Coast). He's played a few times (around 30 minutes) this year for Brest but as far as I know has made little impact yet.

[Tartan blood]

2 hours ago, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

Like I say, I wasn't comparing the standard of the players but simply commenting on my own inability to hope for a player of absolute top standard to emerge.

We are of course in quite a different place to when some of those names came to the fore with, I would argue, at least one world class player and several on the cusp of that standard so perhaps we are all more rational in our expectations than we might have been previously.

Incidentally, the Dembele situation is not yet decided - he could yet recommit to Scotland (or Ivory Coast). He's played a few times (around 30 minutes) this year for Brest but as far as I know has made little impact yet.

I think we are also now in a position where we are not just waiting on a Gareth Bale to fall to earth on a meteor and save us. Which is essentially what we hoped for for 30 odd years. Now that we are being proactive, with things like the performance schools, stars are being made, and not discovered.

I'd argue that we have 2 unquestionable world class players, at least another 4 or 5 players capable of world class performances, and a handful that have the potential to become superstars. 

We are in a very healthy position where we don't have to pin hopes on 16 year olds any more. We can patiently wait and see how they turn out.

[mccaughey85]

On 9/26/2022 at 11:14 AM, Scots_Wha_Hae said:

His development pathway entirely depends on how good he is and at this point it is hard to say. He has clearly done very well at the levels he has played so far however, as has been pointed out by others (including yourself), the standard at those levels is debatable. Yes he has excelled at EPL U18 level and now at international U21 level but tbh neither has been of a great standard (some U21 teams are excellent, but NI are not one of them). The U19 Champs League is a good standard and he was good there so that’s a promising sign. If he is a genuine generational talent then skipping a loan to the lower leagues is very possible, like Phil Fodden or Jude Bellingham for instance. If he is a very good player then a loan may be necessary. His next step logically IMO is reserve EPL football. His performance there will dictate the next step.

As an aside, Calvin Ramsay has been injured since he joined Liverpool. He is back in training now and all of his training has been with the first team group. I expect him to make his debut this year and nothing that has happened so far makes me doubt this will happen.

Yeh i suppose a crack at epl u23s football is probably the next step then maybe a loan move. I genuinely hope hes like sancho or foden in terms of playing first team at 18/19 but obviously thats a big ask.

[Orraloon]

20 hours ago, Tartan blood said:

I think we are also now in a position where we are not just waiting on a Gareth Bale to fall to earth on a meteor and save us. Which is essentially what we hoped for for 30 odd years. Now that we are being proactive, with things like the performance schools, stars are being made, and not discovered.

I'd argue that we have 2 unquestionable world class players, at least another 4 or 5 players capable of world class performances, and a handful that have the potential to become superstars. 

We are in a very healthy position where we don't have to pin hopes on 16 year olds any more. We can patiently wait and see how they turn out.

Bale started out as a left back. We currently have a young guy who started out at left back and is looking pretty shit hot at right back. I wonder if Hickey could learn how to take free kicks?

[GHfaeGTA]

On 9/27/2022 at 10:37 AM, Caledonian Craig said:

Big differences - Feruz never even played for Celtic before moving on after years of no progress. He went to Chelsea, made no impression and a few years later he is selling caps at the age of 27. Dembele is of no interest to us now as he has chosen to represent England. As for Robbie Foy well the only similarity with Doak is that he was at Liverpool. He did not make the impact with those at the club that Doak has. He had no experience at any level at Liverpool unlike Doak. Never made any great impression at U-17,18 or 21 level unlike Doak who already has goals for us at those levels.

Feruz  did do very well initially at Chelsea at youth level and I’m pretty sure he scored a hat trick for Scotland under 21s when he was probably about 18. He then fell like a Stone. Still a long way for Doak to go but the potential is certainly there but not guaranteed he’ll make it. Ryan Gauld was unbelievable at 17 in Scotland and most watchers would have predicted him playing for Scotland but that did not happen. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by GHfaeGTA

[ErsatzThistle]

Gemmill (U21s) and Stark (U19s) are the only things currently ruining the Scotland national team setup.

Get them to feck.