We Need To Go To A Back 4

[romanticscot]

I think 3-5-2 has suited us because of it has allowed us to get more out of Robbo and Tierney.  Without one of them, it weakens the case to play that way, but does weaken our defense but I would argue it strengthens our attack. 

[Texas Pete]

I think Clarke really needs to prepare his squad to play with either 3 at the back or 4 at the back depending on the opposition and/or who is fit to play. 

Clarke has changed to 4 at the back at half time or midway through the second half a couple of times if I remember correctly and we improved in those games so should probably have started with that formation. 

I appreciate that this won’t be easy for Clarke to do as he has limited time with the players compared to a club manager but there will be games (and times where Robertson or Tierney are injured) when one formation will be more suitable than the other. 

[ceudmilefailte]

1 hour ago, Texas Pete said:

I think Clarke really needs to prepare his squad to play with either 3 at the back or 4 at the back depending on the opposition and/or who is fit to play. 

Clarke has changed to 4 at the back at half time or midway through the second half a couple of times if I remember correctly and we improved in those games so should probably have started with that formation. 

I appreciate that this won’t be easy for Clarke to do as he has limited time with the players compared to a club manager but there will be games (and times where Robertson or Tierney are injured) when one formation will be more suitable than the other. 

Well we don't have three center backs of much use so surely only playing two is the answer. 

[ErsatzThistle]

5 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Well we don't have three center backs of much use so surely only playing two is the answer. 

There are several available that haven't been tried out yet. It's not as if there are only two or three available.

[Texas Pete]

20 minutes ago, ceudmilefailte said:

Well we don't have three center backs of much use so surely only playing two is the answer. 

Yeah that’s why Clarke generally plays full backs or midfielders in his back 3. 

3 at the back has worked quite well in some games although there have been several games during Clarke’s tenure where he has played 3 at the back when he should have played 4. 

I think he needs to be a wee bit more flexible depending on the opposition and the players he has available in any given international break is all I’m saying. 

[Guest Scot1]

The thing with a back 3/5 , especially in a 3/4/2/1 is it seems very difficult to stay compact, it’s very difficult for the team to move up and down the park as a cohesive unit.  What tends to happen is the team doesn’t really move up and down the park but becomes stretched along it, leaving spaces,  which the opposition takes advantage of. It’s also harder to coordinate the offside with 3/5 at the back. Well with our backline it seems to be. I’m not sure but it wouldn’t surprise me if it’s Tierney who organises the back 3 when he plays, because  when he doesn’t there’s no discipline within it. 

[er yir macaroon]

9 hours ago, Scot1 said:

The thing with a back 3/5 , especially in a 3/4/2/1 is it seems very difficult to stay compact, it’s very difficult for the team to move up and down the park as a cohesive unit.  What tends to happen is the team doesn’t really move up and down the park but becomes stretched along it, leaving spaces,  which the opposition takes advantage of. It’s also harder to coordinate the offside with 3/5 at the back. Well with our backline it seems to be. I’m not sure but it wouldn’t surprise me if it’s Tierney who organises the back 3 when he plays, because  when he doesn’t there’s no discipline within it. 

I agree with pretty much all of this.

Will be interesting to see if Clarke will act on what he may have learned from previous games, including the Ukraine one. 

[Guest Scot1]

Thinking about it, I’d have no problem if Clarke played Tierney as a left sided centre half in a back 4. I’m sure he played there for a half against Israel. Something like this

Hickey/Taylor Tierney Hendry Patterson

we maybe give away a bit of height but I think Tierneys other qualities more than make up for it.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Scot1

[Orraloon]

42 minutes ago, Scot1 said:

Thinking about it, I’d have no problem if Clarke played Tierney as a left sided centre half in a back 4. I’m sure he played there for a half against Israel. Something like this

Hickey/Taylor Tierney Hendry Patterson

we maybe give away a bit of height but I think Tierneys other qualities more than make up for it.

With that defence Ukraine will be looking like scoring at every corner and free kick inside our half.

[Guest Scot1]

10 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

With that defence Ukraine will be looking like scoring at every corner and free kick inside our half.

Would need to be Hickey at left back over Taylor for his height and physicality. I’d have McTominay in midfield, that would add more height and if that wasn’t enough you could put Dykes up front instead of Adams. But yeah the lack of height would be a disadvantage. But his reading of the game, his leadership, passing etc would more than make up for it. 
I don’t remember Ukraine being a particular big team. If I remember correctly Ireland were a big team, think every Irish player looked about 6,2’ minimum. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Scot1

[DAVIDB46]

3 minutes ago, Scot1 said:

Would need to be Hickey at left back over Taylor for his height and physicality. I’d have McTominay in midfield, that would add more height and if that wasn’t enough you could put Dykes up front instead of Adams. But yeah the lack of height would be a disadvantage. But his reading of the game, his leadership, passing etc would more than make up for it. 

Dykes is absolute mince though and if we were relying him to any degree we are in real trouble. 

[Guest Scot1]

4 minutes ago, DAVIDB46 said:

Dykes is absolute mince though and if we were relying him to any degree we are in real trouble. 

He’s not in good form, he does offer height, physicality, athleticism though. I wouldn’t be relying on Dykes for goals, just for him to throw his weight around. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Scot1

[Orraloon]

14 minutes ago, Scot1 said:

Would need to be Hickey at left back over Taylor for his height and physicality. I’d have McTominay in midfield, that would add more height and if that wasn’t enough you could put Dykes up front instead of Adams. But yeah the lack of height would be a disadvantage. But his reading of the game, his leadership, passing etc would more than make up for it. 
I don’t remember Ukraine being a particular big team. If I remember correctly Ireland were a big team, think every Irish player looked about 6,2’ minimum. 

Ukraine have about 10 outfield 6 foot players in their squad. They won't all play, but they only a couple to out jump and out muscle that defence. Ukraine may not be the most technically gifted team, but the are a team of athletes. It's not just about height, it's also about technique. Hendry and Tierney are good players but not that great in the air. Either Hanley or McKenna will start, IMO, unless both are injured.

[Orraloon]

I see Hanley is out. McKenna has to start, IMO.

[Guest Scot1]

34 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

Ukraine have about 10 outfield 6 foot players in their squad. They won't all play, but they only a couple to out jump and out muscle that defence. Ukraine may not be the most technically gifted team, but the are a team of athletes. It's not just about height, it's also about technique. Hendry and Tierney are good players but not that great in the air. Either Hanley or McKenna will start, IMO, unless both are injured.

Regardless of who plays where, we’re not going to have the biggest of teams, there just aren’t that many tall, athletic players in the squad. 
So if you play Tierney, McKenna, McTominay as the back 3, there’s no height or physicality in midfield, if Adams  plays ahead of Dykes, again,  little height upfront. With the players we have available in the squad some kind of comprise is going to have to be found. And personally I’d have no problems if Clarke decided to play Tierney as left centre half in a back 4 because his other qualities make up for his lack of height. And I’d say that Ukraine are a pretty technical side, they play possession football, build from the back, play through the 1/3’s. Ireland were the more athletic, less technical team, if my memory is correct.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Scot1

[Orraloon]

My team would be.

Any Keeper

Patterson, Hendry, McKenna, Tierney, Hickey

Gilmour, MacGregor, Armstrong, McGinn

Adams

I think Clarke will try shoehorn McTominay in somewhere though, which IMO, would upset the balance of the team. McT should be our super sub if everybody else is fully fit.

 

[Guest Scot1]

12 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

My team would be.

Any Keeper

Patterson, Hendry, McKenna, Tierney, Hickey

Gilmour, MacGregor, Armstrong, McGinn

Adams

I think Clarke will try shoehorn McTominay in somewhere though, which IMO, would upset the balance of the team. McT should be our super sub if everybody else is fully fit.

 

You’d imagine it would be McTominay for Hendry if Clarke opts for a back 3/5. 
 

If I was to play Tierney as left centre half, in a back 4, I’d go with

                Gordon

Patterson Hendry Tierney Hickey

                McLean

McTominay  Gilmour  MacGregor     
              McGinn    
                            Dykes

 

Though if Dykes wasn’t being effective I’d be quick to replace him with Adams

 

        

Edited September 21, 2022 by Scot1

[runningtings]

I really doubt he'll change to a back 4 now. I think it will be:

 

-------------- Gordon

------ Hendry McKenna Tierney

Patterson ------------------- Hickey

------- McTominay --- McGregor

-- McGinn ------------ Armstrong

------------- Adams 

 

[er yir macaroon]

My team:

                  Gordon

Patt. Hendry McKenna Tierney

McTominay Gilmour McGregor

                McGinn

          Adams   Fraser 

 

It doesn’t thrill me, but it’s okay. 

[Bobby Russell's Lovechild]

On 9/3/2022 at 2:33 PM, Scot1 said:

Just watched Patterson play very well for Everton against Liverpool at right Full Back, he played well there against Leeds previous game. Robertson prefers to play Full Back rather than Wing Back. Hickey is playing at Full Back. Tierney at Full Back. We need to switch to a back 4 to progress with this squad. It will allow us to play another Central Midfielder which could give us the numbers and balance we lack in the middle of the park. 
There maybe occasions where a back 3/5 is appropriate, but if we are to move forward, a back 4 needs to be our default. 

You called it right👍

[mccaughey85]

9 minutes ago, Bobby Russell's Lovechild said:

You called it right👍

Lets just wait and see how things pan out with a back 4 before we start claiming its definitely the best option. Everyone seems to forget that until the last round of results we were doing reasonably well with 5 at the back. The back 4 looked good last night but personally i think our players decided to actually turn up this time unlike the play off and ireland game and our formation is not the only reason our form fluctuates. Whatever formation we play we need our good players to turn up and put in a good performance and last night that happened.

 

[er yir macaroon]

2 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Lets just wait and see how things pan out with a back 4 before we start claiming its definitely the best option. Everyone seems to forget that until the last round of results we were doing reasonably well with 5 at the back. The back 4 looked good last night but personally i think our players decided to actually turn up this time unlike the play off and ireland game and our formation is not the only reason our form fluctuates. Whatever formation we play we need our good players to turn up and put in a good performance and last night that happened.

 

I agree individual performances are the most important factor, but I do think when these dip a back 3 quickly becomes a back 5 and we lose the midfield and the game. Last night was a breath of fresh air. Having two fast centre halves helped a lot. 

Edited September 22, 2022 by er yir macaroon

[Hertsscot]

19 hours ago, DAVIDB46 said:

Dykes is absolute mince though and if we were relying him to any degree we are in real trouble. 

Ok he's not Messi but he's maybe not that bad. Pleased for the big guy, he has, I believe, been a bit out of sorts at QPR but I think we'd all agree that he was pretty good last night.

[vanderark14]

8 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

Ok he's not Messi but he's maybe not that bad. Pleased for the big guy, he has, I believe, been a bit out of sorts at QPR but I think we'd all agree that he was pretty good last night.

He's scoring at a rate of 1 in 3 for Scotland. He's not ghe best but he adds to the cause

[Haggis_trap]

Fantastic performance last night...

The shift to back 4 line of defenders (4-2-3-1 formation) made a big difference. Against Ukraine in the play off we went 5-3-2 and got swamped in the midfield.  Last night the extra midfielder made a huge difference (McGregor and McTominay were superb anchors). 

Interestingly the back 5 only seems to work with Tierney available. 
My theory is that he is smart enough to know when to step up into midfield as an extra man. 
Some big decisions for Steve Clarke - especially when Robertson returns!