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3 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

No I disagree strongly Mcgaughey. We go independent we go full hog for the whole geographic mass of Scotland - that is what we will all be voting on. Not offering up pieces of Scotland to appease unionists.

For many decades now Scots who crave independence have not been given any land to appease them so why should unionists get it any different.

There is an easy solution for unionists not willing to adapt or as tempt to make independence work - they can cross the border into England to live to remain within their union. I bet a bottom dollar not many would do it as they would see Scotland as their home. And this is key because it proves, if push comes to a shove, most unionists would choose to live in an independent Scotland - speaks volumes, deep down, how deep they really care about the union.

This, but with the slight amendment that they wouldn't be remaining within their union.  They'd be becoming English.  If that's what they want then fair enough.  Let them fck off all the way down to Berwick and beyond.  The rest of us can get on with rebuilding Scotland - the WHOLE of Scotland - into the nation we know she can and should be.

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The military is already here. The Scottish regiments of British Armies some of which were formed when Scotland was independent. Soldiers on those regiments are not going to have a mass walkout to join a British regiment. This week the Scottish Government put £65 million towards Ukraine's armed forces and similar would happen to start building Scottish armed forces. Passports and embassies? You think we cannot manage that? Jeez you'd think we are struggling with rudimentaries of the wheel..we are not backward. The UK will be cunts over currency but only after over a year as independence would take that time to come into force.  And as has been pointed out we have went through massive changes in the past in our lives and got through it and learned to adapt. Think back to decimalisation, joining the EEC, Brexit, COVID to name but a few. With independence it would be the same. You need to look at historical polls. Unionism is on decline. Back in the late 1970s about 79% of Scots were happy in the union. That has now been slashed by almost 30% to support at around 50,% and that number is heading south all the time.

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1 minute ago, daviebee said:

This, but with the slight amendment that they wouldn't be remaining within their union.  They'd be becoming English.  If that's what they want then fair enough.  Let them fck off all the way down to Berwick and beyond.  The rest of us can get on with rebuilding Scotland - the WHOLE of Scotland - into the nation we know she can and should be.

In theory thats great, sign me up.

In reality its unlikely we see a mass exodus from scotland to england. Infact theres a decent chance more english keep coming up to scotland(regardless of indy). It feels like more and more choose to come to scotland every year. We already have nearly 9 percent who are english born in scotland. Probably nearly 10 percent of the electorate are english born as well. 

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6 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

In theory thats great, sign me up.

In reality its unlikely we see a mass exodus from scotland to england. Infact theres a decent chance more english keep coming up to scotland(regardless of indy). It feels like more and more choose to come to scotland every year. We already have nearly 9 percent who are english born in scotland. Probably nearly 10 percent of the electorate are english born as well. 

And your point,? There are very many ex pat's who live in Australia and they do not canvas for Australia to return to being under British rule. There are English or Welsh or Northern Irish-born people living in Scotland and believe it or not but a fair few support independence. Unionists either learn to adapt and work to make an independent Scotland a success but if they cannot then they ship out and any bolshe acts and they get kicked out as what happens in other countries across the globe.

Edited by Caledonian Craig
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2 hours ago, vanderark14 said:

Exactly this, going by mccaugheys logic the indy supporters should've been given 45% of the country 

As I said earlier, if we go indy Scotland in many ways will be like South Africa where there are pockets of SA occupied by rabid, white suoremacists who are still vehemently against majority black rule but are having to simply suck it up and that the days of PW Botha are well and truly over. There will be areas of Glasgow and Lanarkshire post indy who will still have bitter, staunch Loyalists who will wave the UJ to the bitter end and refuse to accept reality. As CC says though, tough titty. Suxh behaviour would make these fannies even more of a laughing stock

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4 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

The military is already here. The Scottish regiments of British Armies some of which were formed when Scotland was independent. Soldiers on those regiments are not going to have a mass walkout to join a British regiment. This week the Scottish Government put £65 million towards Ukraine's armed forces and similar would happen to start building Scottish armed forces. Passports and embassies? You think we cannot manage that? Jeez you'd think we are struggling with rudimentaries of the wheel..we are not backward. The UK will be cunts over currency but only after over a year as independence would take that time to come into force.  And as has been pointed out we have went through massive changes in the past in our lives and got through it and learned to adapt. Think back to decimalisation, joining the EEC, Brexit, COVID to name but a few. With independence it would be the same. You need to look at historical polls. Unionism is on decline. Back in the late 1970s about 79% of Scots were happy in the union. That has now been slashed by almost 30% to support at around 50,% and that number is heading south all the time.

Military aspect is still huge regardless of what way you spin it. A new navy, army and raf is huge for us, creating new air bases and building navy ships. New airplanes etc. Many scots will still want to join the british military which may undermine the newly formed scottish militarys. Whatever way you look at it its huge and the scottish ppl have been shown to be pussies about the slightest changes things like pensions and currency etc.

We can manage passports and embassies but its still a big jump for many scots and many will choose to keep a british passport. Many scots will choose to remain british in general creating a big divide between both sides.

You think the currency situation will be that easy? 

You are saying that back in the 70s 79 percent were happy with being british and being in the union. That to me is worrying stat. It shows that scotland potentially can be a very pro union country if it suits us. Whats stopping it going back to that number. Recent polls over the couple of years or so have actually seen a dip in independence back down to 50 percent. 

How do you know that it wont dip further and further. Having a previous history 79 percent in favour of the union is not a plus point.

I think its worrying that you and other nationalists on here underestimate the changes we are undertaking with independence and its all very well the likes of me and you bashing on with it but a large percentage of scotland are far too scared of these changes and will opt back in as soon as the going gets tough.

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One option might be to buy another property over the border in Berwick. Register that as my home address pay Uk tax, spend almost all my time in Edinburgh and let out the property in Berwick.

the concept of where you live and where you work is now almost irrelevant.

 

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11 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

And your point,? There are very many ex pat's who live in Australia and they do not canvas for Australia to return to being under British rule. There are English or Welsh or Northern Irish-born people living in Scotland and believe it or not but a fair few support independence. Unionists either learn to adapt and work to make an independent Scotland a success but if they cannot then they ship out and any bolshe acts and they get kicked out as what happens in other countries across the globe.

Lets be honest most of the english ppl in scotland want scotland to remain in the uk. Its been shown that something like 75+ percent vote no.

Australias a different situation altogether. They aint attached to britain by land. The situation here runs deeper due to us being on the island of britain.

Bolshe acts lol. They will have the right to form a unionist party and vote for what they want. The idea that they get thrown out is daft and unrealistic. They are here to stay and wont be going anywhere. 

Freedom of speech is something indy scotland will likely have and unionism wont just disappear because us nationalist say so.

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15 minutes ago, King Of Paisley said:

As I said earlier, if we go indy Scotland in many ways will be like South Africa where there are pockets of SA occupied by rabid, white suoremacists who are still vehemently against majority black rule but are having to simply suck it up and that the days of PW Botha are well and truly over. There will be areas of Glasgow and Lanarkshire post indy who will still have bitter, staunch Loyalists who will wave the UJ to the bitter end and refuse to accept reality. As CC says though, tough titty. Suxh behaviour would make these fannies even more of a laughing stock

Your underestimating how many hardcore unionists and scottish ppl happy to be in the union we have. The idea that its few oddball nutters here and there is strange. Up until recent times scotland had only 30 percent wanting indy. The idea that we are a massive majority and have always been is simply not true. Its a divide thats not just going to fade away once we get indy, i find it odd that ppl in here think its as easy as that.

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1 minute ago, mccaughey85 said:

Your underestimating how many hardcore unionists and scottish ppl happy to be in the union we have. The idea that its few oddball nutters here and there is strange. Up until recent times scotland had only 30 percent wanting indy. The idea that we are a massive majority and have always been is simply not true. Its a divide thats not just going to fade away once we get indy, i find it odd that ppl in here think its as easy as that.

I was referring to the uber staunch mob who simply identify as being British and nothing else. Your OO, No Surrender types. Who, thankfully, are in a minority. To say that there is a huge swathe of these cretins is untrue. The majority of No voters were unconvinced about various arguments and shat the bed.

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2 minutes ago, King Of Paisley said:

I was referring to the uber staunch mob who simply identify as being British and nothing else. Your OO, No Surrender types. Who, thankfully, are in a minority. To say that there is a huge swathe of these cretins is untrue. The majority of No voters were unconvinced about various arguments and shat the bed.

Yeh your oo and no surrender types are a small minority but there are other hardcore unionists who have nothing to do with these organisation. The unionist population in scotland isnt just some small minority. Its possibly a third plus there is many who dont mind being in the union and will prefer to stay in unless an indy scotland is an instant success. Trying to kid ourselves that scotland has a small minority in favour of the union is simply not true and the polls and referendum showed this to be not true.

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3 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Yeh your oo and no surrender types are a small minority but there are other hardcore unionists who have nothing to do with these organisation. The unionist population in scotland isnt just some small minority. Its possibly a third plus there is many who dont mind being in the union and will prefer to stay in unless an indy scotland is an instant success. Trying to kid ourselves that scotland has a small minority in favour of the union is simply not true and the polls and referendum showed this to be not true.

I don't think anyone on here has ever said that the No camp is a small minority. Far from it. But I am willing to bet there will a fair chunk of soft Noes in there. These are the people that need convincing of the many benefits of self governance. The types I have mentioned above are beyond trying to have a coherent argument about. 

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This thread is doing a great job of conflating Unionism and Loyalism - which are essentially two different things.

Are we really suggesting that Aberdeenshire farmers are going to pack up and move to England or that they'll be blockading the streets in their Land Rovers and turning their fertiliser stocks into car bombs?

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40 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

Lets be honest most of the english ppl in scotland want scotland to remain in the uk. Its been shown that something like 75+ percent vote no.

On the flip side I'm pretty sure the polling after 2014 showed that over 30% of people born in England voted Yes.

To me that's an encouraging number that may increase in the post-Brexit environment. 

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Unionism will definitely not disappear.  It will be interesting to see how things pan out wwiith public opinion if independence happens.  

if there is enough support there may have be a referendum to rejoin the Uk after a few years.  I could be like the Hokey Cokey for decades!

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13 minutes ago, aaid said:

This thread is doing a great job of conflating Unionism and Loyalism - which are essentially two different things.

Are we really suggesting that Aberdeenshire farmers are going to pack up and move to England or that they'll be blockading the streets in their Land Rovers and turning their fertiliser stocks into car bombs?

Either way theres massive support for the union from both and the idea that it just goes away after independence is highly unlikely. 

Not sure what your point is regarding aberdeenshire farmers. Unionists from all walks of life just need to vote for the union and they will get the union if they get a majority.

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16 minutes ago, Toepoke said:

On the flip side I'm pretty sure the polling after 2014 showed that over 30% of people born in England voted Yes.

To me that's an encouraging number that may increase in the post-Brexit environment. 

Not sure where that stats come from but i have seen ones that say lower than 30%. Either way 70 percent voting unionist is not great reading and it puts us an instant disadvantage. 

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36 minutes ago, King Of Paisley said:

I don't think anyone on here has ever said that the No camp is a small minority. Far from it. But I am willing to bet there will a fair chunk of soft Noes in there. These are the people that need convincing of the many benefits of self governance. The types I have mentioned above are beyond trying to have a coherent argument about. 

Theres also alot of soft yes voters who can be swayed over to no.

 

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1 minute ago, mccaughey85 said:

Not sure where that stats come from but i have seen ones that say lower than 30%. Either way 70 percent voting unionist is not great reading and it puts us an instant disadvantage. 

Lets just expel all the English people now and sort it out.

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On 6/30/2022 at 1:19 AM, mccaughey85 said:

Scotlands a slightly different situation to alot of other commonwealth countries who got their independence. The difference is we are part of an island with wales and england. This means there will generally be ppl who will either strongly or mildly attach themselves to the notion of being british and wanting to maintain a british state. Imo even if indy goes well there will still be a sizable minority who will want to rejoin the uk because of their desire to remain british.

If indy doesnt go that well then we could be looking at situation where the britnats want another referendum on rejoining and they might be able to get a majority government in power if they mobilise under one party. Also emigration from england could increase which could end up tipping the scales in favour of rejoining the uk. The native born scots voted for indy in the last referendum but it was the uk born population mostly from england helped win it for the no side. 

Kidding ourselves that the unionist population will fade away in an indy scotland is not a good idea. They will be here in an indy scotland undermining it and causing problems especially if it isnt an instant success. 

My idea of partition might not be popular and i understand its extremely unlikely but given the choice between an slightly smaller indy scotland that has a longterm future over one that could easily want to rejoin the uk then i would choose the first option. 

It doesnt have to necessarily be labelled partition. It could just be a case of redrawing the border and letting the uk have the southern part of scotland which is strongly unionist anyways. This part of scotland will then be filled with unionists from other areas of scotland  who wish to remain part of the uk while the rest of scotland moves forward with a 70/30 majority.

It's not that strongly unionist.  Not so long ago, we had an SNP MP.  Now we have that utter cnut Alister Jackboot, not that he's ever seen in Dumfries.  Your idea of surrendering part of Scotland to England is just plain daft.  scotland has been recognised as a nation for about a thousand years and we're not going to have it butchered to keep a bunch of right wing nutters happy.  i'm sure if we thrive, which we will, they'll soon come round.

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2 hours ago, Alibi said:

It's not that strongly unionist.  Not so long ago, we had an SNP MP.  Now we have that utter cnut Alister Jackboot, not that he's ever seen in Dumfries.  Your idea of surrendering part of Scotland to England is just plain daft.  scotland has been recognised as a nation for about a thousand years and we're not going to have it butchered to keep a bunch of right wing nutters happy.  i'm sure if we thrive, which we will, they'll soon come round.

this should really be the end of the discussion, I feel dumber for engaging in this shite 🤣

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9 minutes ago, vanderark14 said:

this should really be the end of the discussion, I feel dumber for engaging in this shite 🤣

Totally agree. And the fantasy world McGaughey suggests is ludicrous. Evidently, nobody here agrees that Scotland should be cut up to appease BritNats and that is never the purpose of an IndyRef. It is like that Small Faces song All or Nothing. Independence takes Scotland out of the dark ages when empires ruled big swathes of the world for the benefit of the ruling body - nobody else.

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On 6/30/2022 at 1:15 AM, Ally Bongo said:

And some are as thick as shite (like Val from Radio 4 last night) who do not have any coherent reason for voting No but they just do

Tell us about Val?

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23 hours ago, Dave78 said:

2 questions for mccaughey85 and Tidy:

 

1. The Tories opposed devolution and campaigned for a No vote in 97 (or whenever it was). Why did they end up embracing it? Why are they not now campaigning for the abolition of the Scottish parliament?

 

2. Can you give any examples of countries winning their independence, then surrendering it shortly after? (Texas doesn't count as its never been a 'proper' country 😉 )

Re question 2, it reminded me of the Montonegrin independence referendum in 2006. They voted Yes, 55% to 45% (sounds familiar, eh?). Its currently run by the SNP (no, not that one. This one) who were traditionally a unionist party. To borrow your logic, they should now be trying to re-unify with Serbia, but they aren't. Why?

 

Pretty much what mccaughey says re question 1. Tories do not embrace devolution. If they had half the chance they would burn down the Scottish Parliament. 

Re Q2. Again, I agree with him on the issue of geography. I think it makes things much harder for people to be won over as we are on an island where all the countries are in the union. This is unusual. It just makes some people feel more ‘together’ , some enough to revolt if we win independence. It would  only take a few to start for the bandwagon to grow. 

I am not sure why this is not being seen an issue . I want independence as much as anyone on this board but I would rather be prepared for the potential problems. It will also be used by the No side to put people off so is should be addressed. 

Splitting the country is outrageous though. Independence would be dead in the water with that suggestion.
 

 

 

 

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