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16 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Brexit wasnt ideal 

If folk want to be ruled by England then we can fund it to help them move there

The irony of course is that England will want fuck all to do with them - same with the Ulster Unionists

And not because of Independence

They want fuck all to do with us now

I mostly feel the same way as you but its undeniable that theres a large minority of scots who very much see themselves as scottish and british and they could really cause problems to an indy scotland. They clearly want to be both scottish and british and technically we are on the island of britain. If they did have their own space then an independent scotland could focus on removing the hardline unionists and we could restrict organisations like the oo from having marches.

I am just thinking about the future of an independent scotland in the long term. We could potentially have a situation where a pro unionist party rise to power with a manifesto pledge of having another referendum on rejoining the uk. If scotland is split evenly then we could be yo yoing between being in the uk and being independent. 

Obviously i understand that its a far out idea that seems a little crazy and i very much doubt it would ever happen but its a scenario that i would prefer instead of the possibility of scotland having to rejoin the uk after a period of independence. 

Its a major problem that scotland is split 50/50. If we get to the point where its 60/40 in favour of indy then great but the polls have shown that there isnt consistently 60 percent in favour of independence so therefore its a risk going forward with such a small majority. 

 

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8 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

 

I am just thinking about the future of an independent scotland in the long term. We could potentially have a situation where a pro unionist party rise to power with a manifesto pledge of having another referendum on rejoining the uk. If scotland is split evenly then we could be yo yoing between being in the uk and being independent. 

 

 

Look how that worked out for the UK anti brexit parties after the referendum 

The political landscape will change - we wont have British Labour, British Conservative or British Lib Dem parties

We will probably have one Unionist party that will attract hard core Unionists voters that will suffer the same fate as the Remainer parties - especially if Westminster makes the transistion difficult which i expect they will

Every country that became Independent from the UK will have had many people that didnt want it too - none have ever elected parties that wanted back

Its already been said how many Union at all/any cost there are amongst the No Vote - it is roughly 1/3rd

 

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13 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

I mostly feel the same way as you but its undeniable that theres a large minority of scots who very much see themselves as scottish and british and they could really cause problems to an indy scotland. They clearly want to be both scottish and british and technically we are on the island of britain. If they did have their own space then an independent scotland could focus on removing the hardline unionists and we could restrict organisations like the oo from having marches.

I am just thinking about the future of an independent scotland in the long term. We could potentially have a situation where a pro unionist party rise to power with a manifesto pledge of having another referendum on rejoining the uk. If scotland is split evenly then we could be yo yoing between being in the uk and being independent. 

Obviously i understand that its a far out idea that seems a little crazy and i very much doubt it would ever happen but its a scenario that i would prefer instead of the possibility of scotland having to rejoin the uk after a period of independence. 

Its a major problem that scotland is split 50/50. If we get to the point where its 60/40 in favour of indy then great but the polls have shown that there isnt consistently 60 percent in favour of independence so therefore its a risk going forward with such a small majority. 

 

There are a lot of voters who aren't really unionists, just a bit conservative with a small c.  Once we are independence and they see Scotland thriving, they will be quite happy.  The problem at the moment is that everyone is being bombarded by pro-UK propaganda and a lot of folk take it at face value.  We are basically told Scotland is shite, so a lot of people think they need "subsidies".  If we had some decent newspapers that took a reasonable and truthful line, people would have a better idea of what is going on.  I don't mean comics like the National which is a unionist false flag operation owned by the same folk as the now appalling Herald where the comments sections are now open only to subscribers, and that has basically censored 95% of the Yes side.

The idea further up the thread that Scotland should be partitioned with the south remaining in the UK is actually quite offensive.  That's the sort of shite that the rUK would love to promote, as they did in Ireland.  anyway would you not also have to partition the neorth east where there are Tories too?

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15 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

Every country that became Independent from the UK will have had many people that didnt want it too - none have ever elected parties that wanted back

That's an interesting point.  I remember reading somewhere that at the time of the Easter Rising support for Irish independence was probably not even at 50% though without MORI and other pollsters I'm not sure how accurate that figure would have been.

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1 hour ago, Hertsscot said:

That's an interesting point.  I remember reading somewhere that at the time of the Easter Rising support for Irish independence was probably not even at 50% though without MORI and other pollsters I'm not sure how accurate that figure would have been.

Indeed however after the rising was crushed support for Independence surged

The following years leading up to the Irish War of Independence/ Anglo Irish War is an absolute hornets nest and more complicated than some would have us believe

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5 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

Indeed however after the rising was crushed support for Independence surged

The following years leading up to the Irish War of Independence/ Anglo Irish War is an absolute hornets nest and more complicated than some would have us believe

The UK Government no longer shoots those who endanger it, merely digs up some dirt to discredit them and their cause.

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8 hours ago, Alibi said:

There are a lot of voters who aren't really unionists, just a bit conservative with a small c.  Once we are independence and they see Scotland thriving, they will be quite happy.  The problem at the moment is that everyone is being bombarded by pro-UK propaganda and a lot of folk take it at face value.  We are basically told Scotland is shite, so a lot of people think they need "subsidies".  If we had some decent newspapers that took a reasonable and truthful line, people would have a better idea of what is going on.  I don't mean comics like the National which is a unionist false flag operation owned by the same folk as the now appalling Herald where the comments sections are now open only to subscribers, and that has basically censored 95% of the Yes side.

The idea further up the thread that Scotland should be partitioned with the south remaining in the UK is actually quite offensive.  That's the sort of shite that the rUK would love to promote, as they did in Ireland.  anyway would you not also have to partition the neorth east where there are Tories too?

Even so theres still a large minority of maybe 25/30 percent who are very pro union and see themselves as british as well as scottish. All it takes is for that core of ppl to vote for a unionist party and also a few more disgruntled ppl who feel that indy scotland hasnt been a success and you will have a unionist party in control of an independent scotland who wish to rejoin the uk. 

Scotland at the moment is split 50/50 which is pretty crazy considering we have a tory party with boris johnson in charge. If we cant get a clear majority in this current economic and political climate then will we ever get one? Imagine if a left wing socialist party was in charge of Westminster with a brilliant charismatic genuis of a leader as prime minister. The indy movement would be fukked. We currently have an open goal and still half of scotland dont want to take the chance.

Also this whole pro-uk propaganda newspaper bullshit is a weak excuse, theres men fighting and dying in ukraine and many a country has had to fight wars to obtain freedom. Even our own country 700 hundred years ago, a little(or alot) bit of bullshit propaganda shouldnt deter ppl from voting for independence if they really want it. Problem is a large percentage of scots either dont want it(unionists) or are too pussy to go for it. Either way thats not a good situation for an independent scotland to spend its formative years in.

The whole indy movement is running out of steam, sturgeon looks weary imo and a new indy ref vote could easily be lost or won. The whole idea might be far out and you might find it offensive but its possibly a solution that would allow unionists a place to live and be scottish and british meanwhile it would free up the rest of scotland to go forward with a clear majority and a greater chance at becoming a republic. Probably be a better chance of removing organisations like the oo and hardline unionists as well.

The solution for the north east would be that slowly over the years pro indy ppl living in the newly formed british/scottish state could move to the aberdeen/north east area making it 50/50 or even pro indy. Also pro independence areas within scotland could promote movement to the north east to help push the area to be more pro indy.

Its a far out idea and i understand it would repulse a huge amount of indy supporters but if you were offered the choice of never having an independent Scotland or having this slightly smaller scotland thats very much pro indy with a clear majority then what would you choose?

Its a difficult choice but i would take the slightly smaller scotland, especially if we walked away with edinburgh and glasgow although i think the unionists would expect one of either edinburgh or glasgow. Edinburgh being the main option due to obvious reasons.

Also it would be slightly different to the partition of ireland as we would not be looking to take back this newly formed state. Maybe the north west of england could be included in this new state and all the ni unionists could emigrate to this area and have all the oo marches and unionist parades they want.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

That's an interesting point.  I remember reading somewhere that at the time of the Easter Rising support for Irish independence was probably not even at 50% though without MORI and other pollsters I'm not sure how accurate that figure would have been.

50 percent is alot when you know the enemy might starve your country or massacre your ppl using the army of one of the most powerful empires ever created.

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12 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

The whole idea might be far out and you might find it offensive but its possibly a solution that would allow unionists a place to live and be scottish and british meanwhile it would free up the rest of scotland to go forward with a clear majority and a greater chance at becoming a republic. Probably be a better chance of removing organisations like the oo and hardline unionists as well.

The solution for the north east would be that slowly over the years pro indy ppl living in the newly formed british/scottish state could move to the aberdeen/north east area making it 50/50 or even pro indy. Also pro independence areas within scotland could promote movement to the north east to help push the area to be more pro indy.

Its a far out idea and i understand it would repulse a huge amount of indy supporters but if you were offered the choice of never having an independent Scotland or having this slightly smaller scotland thats very much pro indy with a clear majority then what would you choose?

Its a difficult choice but i would take the slightly smaller scotland, especially if we walked away with edinburgh and glasgow although i think the unionists would expect one of either edinburgh or glasgow. Edinburgh being the main option due to obvious reasons.

Also it would be slightly different to the partition of ireland as we would not be looking to take back this newly formed state. Maybe the north west of england could be included in this new state and all the ni unionists could emigrate to this area and have all the oo marches and unionist parades they want.

 

 

 

You'd be willing to partition Scotland based on the wishes of - at most - 9% of Scots who are hardcore unionist and wouldn't identify at all with a newly independent Scotland?

Britnats and OO types are very visible and make a lot of noise online, but lets not overestimate how popular their views are among the general population.

 

12 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

50 percent is alot when you know the enemy might starve your country or massacre your ppl using the army of one of the most powerful empires ever created.

....again.

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On 6/26/2022 at 10:41 PM, Ally Bongo said:

Look how that worked out for the UK anti brexit parties after the referendum 

The political landscape will change - we wont have British Labour, British Conservative or British Lib Dem parties

We will probably have one Unionist party that will attract hard core Unionists voters that will suffer the same fate as the Remainer parties - especially if Westminster makes the transistion difficult which i expect they will

Every country that became Independent from the UK will have had many people that didnt want it too - none have ever elected parties that wanted back

Its already been said how many Union at all/any cost there are amongst the No Vote - it is roughly 1/3rd

 

I agree.

And like you say countries that have gained independence from the UK or other countries do not want to rejoin. It is similar to countries in the Commonwealth who have removed the Queen as their head of state - no turning back for them.

If independence comes about I think angst against it would fade aside from hardcore unionists. People would see the true face of Westminster and its government as they'd show themselves up even more as the bullies they are by making unreasonable demands and being totally out of order. That only steels people's resolve. Also an independent Scotland standing on its own feet will only serve to convince more people that the unionists were scaremongering all along.

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19 hours ago, Ally Bongo said:

Indeed however after the rising was crushed support for Independence surged

The following years leading up to the Irish War of Independence/ Anglo Irish War is an absolute hornets nest and more complicated than some would have us believe

The local populace in Dublin who took the brunt of the fighting were very antipathetic towards the 1916 Rising, it was only when they started executing the leaders that the views of the populace shifted.

A few years back when some rabid Tories were advocating bring back the death sentence for terrorists in the wake of some atrocity, it was pointed out that executing terrorists doesn’t really work and 1916 was held as an example of exactly what happens. 

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13 minutes ago, aaid said:

The local populace in Dublin who took the brunt of the fighting were very antipathetic towards the 1916 Rising, it was only when they started executing the leaders that the views of the populace shifted.

A few years back when some rabid Tories were advocating bring back the death sentence for terrorists in the wake of some atrocity, it was pointed out that executing terrorists doesn’t really work and 1916 was held as an example of exactly what happens. 

I think it was Churchill who had the insight to say there is no grass that grows on a gallows

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On 6/28/2022 at 9:09 AM, Dave78 said:

 

You'd be willing to partition Scotland based on the wishes of - at most - 9% of Scots who are hardcore unionist and wouldn't identify at all with a newly independent Scotland?

Britnats and OO types are very visible and make a lot of noise online, but lets not overestimate how popular their views are among the general population.

 

....again.

You seen the polls? Theres more than 9 percent hardcore unionists. I would hazard a guess that theres at least 20 percent hardcore unionists amongst the native scottish population. Theres also about 10 percent of the electoral population who are from england/uk and they mostly vote to retain the union. 

You are underestimating both the amount hardline unionists and ppl who have unionists leanings. If it was the case that they make up only 9 percent then the polls for independence would have us at 70/30 for indy.

The fact that most of them hover around 50/50 suggests we have a major problem going forward. Even if we were to win a future referendum 52/48 we could still be looking at unsure future and if emigration from england was to even slightly increase then we could be looking at continual divide in scotland that would make the future of being independent uncertain. 

Also you could say the same about scotnats regarding making noise and putting their views across online. The facts show that the polls are generally 50/50 on independence. If it changes to 60/40 then great but until it does that consistently then we are looking at divided country and trying to say its just 9 percent is just deluding ourselves and wont help us in the long run.

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There are different categories for hardcore unionists

Some are fairly well educated and some are not well educated but in common are sectarian bigots

Some are fairly well off and dont want to rock the boat

And some are as thick as shite (like Val from Radio 4 last night) who do not have any coherent reason for voting No but they just do

Only one of those categories will never vote Yes under any circumstances     

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On 6/28/2022 at 10:19 AM, Caledonian Craig said:

I agree.

And like you say countries that have gained independence from the UK or other countries do not want to rejoin. It is similar to countries in the Commonwealth who have removed the Queen as their head of state - no turning back for them.

If independence comes about I think angst against it would fade aside from hardcore unionists. People would see the true face of Westminster and its government as they'd show themselves up even more as the bullies they are by making unreasonable demands and being totally out of order. That only steels people's resolve. Also an independent Scotland standing on its own feet will only serve to convince more people that the unionists were scaremongering all along.

Scotlands a slightly different situation to alot of other commonwealth countries who got their independence. The difference is we are part of an island with wales and england. This means there will generally be ppl who will either strongly or mildly attach themselves to the notion of being british and wanting to maintain a british state. Imo even if indy goes well there will still be a sizable minority who will want to rejoin the uk because of their desire to remain british.

If indy doesnt go that well then we could be looking at situation where the britnats want another referendum on rejoining and they might be able to get a majority government in power if they mobilise under one party. Also emigration from england could increase which could end up tipping the scales in favour of rejoining the uk. The native born scots voted for indy in the last referendum but it was the uk born population mostly from england helped win it for the no side. 

Kidding ourselves that the unionist population will fade away in an indy scotland is not a good idea. They will be here in an indy scotland undermining it and causing problems especially if it isnt an instant success. 

My idea of partition might not be popular and i understand its extremely unlikely but given the choice between an slightly smaller indy scotland that has a longterm future over one that could easily want to rejoin the uk then i would choose the first option. 

It doesnt have to necessarily be labelled partition. It could just be a case of redrawing the border and letting the uk have the southern part of scotland which is strongly unionist anyways. This part of scotland will then be filled with unionists from other areas of scotland  who wish to remain part of the uk while the rest of scotland moves forward with a 70/30 majority.

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5 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

There are different categories for hardcore unionists

Some are fairly well educated and some are not well educated but in common are sectarian bigots

Some are fairly well off and dont want to rock the boat

And some are as thick as shite (like Val from Radio 4 last night) who do not have any coherent reason for voting No but they just do

Only one of those categories will never vote Yes under any circumstances     

Disagree, if that was the case the polls would often show a 65/35 split for indy.  Many unionists dont show their loyalties and can be quite quiet about it but when it comes down to it they will vote to remain in the uk. Trying to tell yourself its a small section of our society is delusional and its not going to help in the long run.

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7 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Scotlands a slightly different situation to alot of other commonwealth countries who got their independence. The difference is we are part of an island with wales and england. This means there will generally be ppl who will either strongly or mildly attach themselves to the notion of being british and wanting to maintain a british state. Imo even if indy goes well there will still be a sizable minority who will want to rejoin the uk because of their desire to remain british.

If indy doesnt go that well then we could be looking at situation where the britnats want another referendum on rejoining and they might be able to get a majority government in power if they mobilise under one party. Also emigration from england could increase which could end up tipping the scales in favour of rejoining the uk. The native born scots voted for indy in the last referendum but it was the uk born population mostly from england helped win it for the no side. 

Kidding ourselves that the unionist population will fade away in an indy scotland is not a good idea. They will be here in an indy scotland undermining it and causing problems especially if it isnt an instant success. 

My idea of partition might not be popular and i understand its extremely unlikely but given the choice between an slightly smaller indy scotland that has a longterm future over one that could easily want to rejoin the uk then i would choose the first option. 

It doesnt have to necessarily be labelled partition. It could just be a case of redrawing the border and letting the uk have the southern part of scotland which is strongly unionist anyways. This part of scotland will then be filled with unionists from other areas of scotland  who wish to remain part of the uk while the rest of scotland moves forward with a 70/30 majority.

I dont agree with your idea of a split but I do agree with everything else. There is no way unionists are going to accept this, especially hardcore, they will be the same as pro independence after the first referendum, they will not let up, and tbh you cant blame them. I know how devastated I was in 2014 and how much I wanted to keep hope alive that we would get another chance . 
There will however be a section of the population that will just go along with it. Look how people just go along with the shit we have in Westminster just now. Politics isn’t something on the forefront of most people’s minds. If we were to gain independence there will be a need for pro independence people to continue to debunk unionist arguments, if anything it may be even harder than what we are dealing with now . We cant just disappear as they will do everything in their power to get us back in the UK. People should underestimate this at their peril. 

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20 minutes ago, TDYER63 said:

I dont agree with your idea of a split but I do agree with everything else. There is no way unionists are going to accept this, especially hardcore, they will be the same as pro independence after the first referendum, they will not let up, and tbh you cant blame them. I know how devastated I was in 2014 and how much I wanted to keep hope alive that we would get another chance . 
There will however be a section of the population that will just go along with it. Look how people just go along with the shit we have in Westminster just now. Politics isn’t something on the forefront of most people’s minds. If we were to gain independence there will be a need for pro independence people to continue to debunk unionist arguments, if anything it may be even harder than what we are dealing with now . We cant just disappear as they will do everything in their power to get us back in the UK. People should underestimate this at their peril. 

Theres also english immigration into scotland to consider. I am from the highlands and huge amounts of english ppl emigrate to here and places like edinburgh and aberdeen. If this immigration increases over time then the balance could tip over to the unionist side. 

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3 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Theres also english immigration into scotland to consider. I am from the highlands and huge amounts of english ppl emigrate to here and places like edinburgh and aberdeen. If this immigration increases over time then the balance could tip over to the unionist side. 

The elephant in the room.

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3 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

Theres also english immigration into scotland to consider. I am from the highlands and huge amounts of english ppl emigrate to here and places like edinburgh and aberdeen. If this immigration increases over time then the balance could tip over to the unionist side. 

Yes I do get that. It is like the native Scottish Red Squirrels pushed out and threatened with extinction with the introduction of the North American Greys or the Scottish Wildcats reducing greatly in numbers due to interbreeding with domestic cats.

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2 questions for mccaughey85 and Tidy:

 

1. The Tories opposed devolution and campaigned for a No vote in 97 (or whenever it was). Why did they end up embracing it? Why are they not now campaigning for the abolition of the Scottish parliament?

 

2. Can you give any examples of countries winning their independence, then surrendering it shortly after? (Texas doesn't count as its never been a 'proper' country 😉 )

Re question 2, it reminded me of the Montonegrin independence referendum in 2006. They voted Yes, 55% to 45% (sounds familiar, eh?). Its currently run by the SNP (no, not that one. This one) who were traditionally a unionist party. To borrow your logic, they should now be trying to re-unify with Serbia, but they aren't. Why?

 

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11 hours ago, Dave78 said:

2 questions for mccaughey85 and Tidy:

 

1. The Tories opposed devolution and campaigned for a No vote in 97 (or whenever it was). Why did they end up embracing it? Why are they not now campaigning for the abolition of the Scottish parliament?

 

2. Can you give any examples of countries winning their independence, then surrendering it shortly after? (Texas doesn't count as its never been a 'proper' country 😉 )

Re question 2, it reminded me of the Montonegrin independence referendum in 2006. They voted Yes, 55% to 45% (sounds familiar, eh?). Its currently run by the SNP (no, not that one. This one) who were traditionally a unionist party. To borrow your logic, they should now be trying to re-unify with Serbia, but they aren't. Why?

 

1. I wouldnt say they embrace it. They know full well that trying to shut down or campaign to shut down the scottish parliament would be uphill task with not much benefit to themselves and the union. Imagine the upsurge in support for indy if the tories tried to abolish the scottish parliament.

2. Well ireland won their independence through a war and a majority vote for sinn fein. They then had to partition the country because a large amount of unionists still wanted to remain british. So they partly won their independence but had to surrender the north in order to prevent civil war and allow them to move foward with what i am guessing was a hope to regain the north at a later date.

Regarding the montenegro situation, i dont really know enough about it to comment. 

There isnt many countries that gained independence from uk/britain and gave up territories after but this is a different situation imo. Like it or not we very much produce ppl who feel british and are pro british which is hardly surprising considering we are on the island of britain. We have done for centuries and the main reason ireland has a pro british population is largely down to scots moving there. The difference with places like canada,australia,usa etc is they are not in britain and its very hard for their populations(past and present) to have any british allegiances when they are not a part of the british isles or the island of britain. This allowed them to move forward and it was easy for them to promote being canadian, american, jamaican etc when the population clearly know that britain is a far flung place that geographically has no connection to them.

Our main problem is geographically we are a part of the britain and this will always mean ppl in scotland will have either a loose affiliation with it or a very strong one. 

My idea of redrawing the border is basically acknowledging the right of some scots to embrace their britishness and giving them a place away from the rest of scotland to do so. It would allow for a republican scotland to move forward with 65/35(maybe more) majority and would secure our future longterm. We could also be alot more harsher on organisations like the oo and ppl who are hardline unionists. These types would be encouraged or even harshly told to move to this newly formed british/scottish state leaving the independent scotland a chance to flourish without nearly half its population wishing to rejoin the uk especially if indy isnt an instant success.

Obviously this sounds like a copycat situation of ireland and partition but i believe it would be different. The difference is that the newly formed scotland would not look to take back these territories and would happily accept the existence of this newly formed british/scottish state. 

Imagine a newly formed scotland that doesnt have 45 or more percent wishing to rejoin the uk and where we dont have to tolerate organisations who undermine our country like the oo and hardline unionists. 

Its not ideal but if i was offered this deal right now i would probably take it and be thankful. Especially if it meant taking both edinburgh and glasgow. The borders between scotland and england were often changed and redrawn depending on deals made between the countries and the compromises made based on what each country could get away with.

We need to accept that even if we win a referendum and go indy that we could still be struggling to keep hold of our independent status. Theres no point in us going independent if we cant hold onto it in the long term.

The idea that we win a referendum and then walk off into the sunset to live our glorious future as an indy scotland is a fantasy at present. Its an ongoing battle and always will be unless we are able to start on strong base of 65 percent which at present we are not anywhere near.

 

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No I disagree strongly Mcgaughey. We go independent we go full hog for the whole geographic mass of Scotland - that is what we will all be voting on. Not offering up pieces of Scotland to appease unionists.

For many decades now Scots who crave independence have not been given any land to appease them so why should unionists get it any different.

There is an easy solution for unionists not willing to adapt or as tempt to make independence work - they can cross the border into England to live to remain within their union. I bet a bottom dollar not many would do it as they would see Scotland as their home. And this is key because it proves, if push comes to a shove, most unionists would choose to live in an independent Scotland - speaks volumes, deep down, how deep they really care about the union.

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5 minutes ago, Caledonian Craig said:

No I disagree strongly Mcgaughey. We go independent we go full hog for the whole geographic mass of Scotland - that is what we will all be voting on. Not offering up pieces of Scotland to appease unionists.

For many decades now Scots who crave independence have not been given any land to appease them so why should unionists get it any different.

There is an easy solution for unionists not willing to adapt or as tempt to make independence work - they can cross the border into England to live to remain within their union. I bet a bottom dollar not many would do it as they would see Scotland as their home. And this is key because it proves, if push comes to a shove, most unionists would choose to live in an independent Scotland - speaks volumes, deep down, how deep they really care about the union.

Tell that to the no voters then. Most of the polls show that half of scots dont want indy. Also we lost the last referendum 55/45, assuming it wasnt rigged(i have my doubts). Its a simple fact that we have a large unionist population who are native scots and have always been native to here.

Would you prefer a slightly smaller independent scotland with long term future(100 or more years) or a scotland(whole) that rejoins the uk after 10/15 years?

 

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