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Coming up to marching season, big parade in Edinburgh (last week?), lots planned for Glasgow. Got me thinking, what happens to Unionist culture in an independent Scotland?

If you're a Rangers fan, a Unionist, a tribal Protestant, a royalist and like your flute bands etc. what happens when your precious union is no more?

Could any of that survive in an independent Scotland? Would it quietly wither away? Would it vanish in a few years or hang around for decades or generations to come?

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9 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

Coming up to marching season, big parade in Edinburgh (last week?), lots planned for Glasgow. Got me thinking, what happens to Unionist culture in an independent Scotland?

If you're a Rangers fan, a Unionist, a tribal Protestant, a royalist and like your flute bands etc. what happens when your precious union is no more?

Could any of that survive in an independent Scotland? Would it quietly wither away? Would it vanish in a few years or hang around for decades or generations to come?

I think it is in terminal decline even now. The OO membership is declining both here and in Northern Ireland. I'd say the staunch mob are in a minority. I think a large number of people can see them for what they are. I can speak from personal experience. Many of my family were OO members and a couple of them played in flute and accordian bands. The sight of some of their behaviour absolutely turned my stomach and vowed never to get sucked into that nonsense. My dad saw the light many years ago and got out, and loathes them for what they stand for. Hopefully in a tolerant Scotland they will die in their own silence knowing that Scotland is no longer British

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1 hour ago, Hertsscot said:

 

If you're a Rangers fan, a Unionist, a tribal Protestant, a royalist and like your flute bands etc. what happens when your precious union is no more?

 

I could never understand why you needed to be ruled by England to be any of those

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46 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

I could never understand why you needed to be ruled by England to be any of those

I would say that not all Rangers fans are uber Loyalists albeit they will be a minority. I think there is a group called Rangers For Independence.

Edited by King Of Paisley
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4 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

Coming up to marching season, big parade in Edinburgh (last week?), lots planned for Glasgow. Got me thinking, what happens to Unionist culture in an independent Scotland?

If you're a Rangers fan, a Unionist, a tribal Protestant, a royalist and like your flute bands etc. what happens when your precious union is no more?

Could any of that survive in an independent Scotland? Would it quietly wither away? Would it vanish in a few years or hang around for decades or generations to come?

I suppose it depends if you mean the 'union of crowns' or 'union of parliaments'. An independent Scotland would at least initially still be in the 'union of crowns' so that particular precious union would still exist. Just as it was in the good old days of, say, 1690. 

In terms of identify surely being British would be like being European now -  you can still feel yourself European even if we're not in the EU. So you could still feel and call yourself British even if not in the UK. 

Another angle would be, what if NI votes to reunite with the rest of Ireland? That would presumably diminish the Union, and certainly make it seem something less enduring and inevitable, maybe something less worth fighting for?  

 

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1 minute ago, exile said:

I suppose it depends if you mean the 'union of crowns' or 'union of parliaments'. An independent Scotland would at least initially still be in the 'union of crowns' so that particular precious union would still exist. Just as it was in the good old days of, say, 1690. 

In terms of identify surely being British would be like being European now -  you can still feel yourself European even if we're not in the EU. So you could still feel and call yourself British even if not in the UK. 

Another angle would be, what if NI votes to reunite with the rest of Ireland? That would presumably diminish the Union, and certainly make it seem something less enduring and inevitable, maybe something less worth fighting for?  

 

Thanks. Some good points that I hadn't really thought about. Would most Unionists (and by that I mean those who don't just vote to retain it but buy into the culture) distinguish between union of crowns and union of Parliaments? The cultural manifestations of Uber Unionism (OO, marches, Union flags at Ibrox) are so tied to continuation of UK it is difficult to see what could continue.

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4 hours ago, King Of Paisley said:

I think it is in terminal decline even now. The OO membership is declining both here and in Northern Ireland. I'd say the staunch mob are in a minority. I think a large number of people can see them for what they are. I can speak from personal experience. Many of my family were OO members and a couple of them played in flute and accordian bands. The sight of some of their behaviour absolutely turned my stomach and vowed never to get sucked into that nonsense. My dad saw the light many years ago and got out, and loathes them for what they stand for. Hopefully in a tolerant Scotland they will die in their own silence knowing that Scotland is no longer British

The OO is definitely dying.

One only has to look at the age of the members that go on the marches, not many young folk and a great many elderly participants. Every year another couple of lodges dissolve for lack of members. They are also having to bring over bands from the six counties to make up for lost numbers in the big parades.

In recent years, the OO have declined to respond to journalists enquiries as to membership numbers. The last time they did so was in 2007 when they claimed c50,000 members. Today it's believed to be about c20,000 perhaps even less.

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2 hours ago, King Of Paisley said:

I would say that not all Rangers fans are uber Loyalists albeit they will be a minority. I think there is a group called Rangers For Independence.

Aye

The point i was trying to make (badly) is that in an Independent Scotland you will still be able to be a Protestant and indeed a bigot

You will also still be able to go to Rangers games and wave a Union flag and sing sectarian songs on the way there and back ( this does not apply to all Rangers fans just trying to make a point)

What the OP touched on is the word "culture"

The culture these people are referring to is White Protestant Supremism in society - keeping the catholics down which lasted for a long time in 20th century Scotland and Northern Ireland

However i would argue that this culture is an idea, a fantasy, which has virtually been extinguished in Scotland and reduced to a sort of gang culture- albeit some pockets no doubt still flicker about within the establishment (low levels within the Police and Judiciary for example)

Anyway - how is that culture affected by a political Union with England. I know it's a tool oft used by Unionists

It isnt as far as i can see

Madness

 

   

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15 minutes ago, ErsatzThistle said:

The OO is definitely dying.

One only has to look at the age of the members that go on the marches, not many young folk and a great many elderly participants. Every year another couple of lodges dissolve for lack of members. They are also having to bring over bands from the six counties to make up for lost numbers in the big parades.

In recent years, the OO have declined to respond to journalists enquiries as to membership numbers. The last time they did so was in 2007 when they claimed c50,000 members. Today it's believed to be about c20,000 perhaps even less.

I read an article online yesterday which was written by an Orangeman in Northern Ireland who reckons little is being done to modernise them i.e. the relaxation of the ban on attending Catholic ceremonies, lodges falling into disrepair and the numbers dwindling to the extent that lodges and districts are having to merge to up the numbers for the Twelfth. Also noted that the majority of the members are elderly as well. Im beggining to think that the generational thing being passed down about loyalism is being broken and younger people are seeing through it. Truth is, the OO, despite what they try and portray in public, is an utterly sinister organisation. Any organisation that can display a banner at a march  honouring the Shankill Butchers is beyond repulsive

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5 minutes ago, Ally Bongo said:

Aye

The point i was trying to make (badly) is that in an Independent Scotland you will still be able to be a Protestant and indeed a bigot

You will also still be able to go to Rangers games and wave a Union flag and sing sectarian songs on the way there and back ( this does not apply to all Rangers fans just trying to make a point)

What the OP touched on is the word "culture"

The culture these people are referring to is White Protestant Supremism in society - keeping the catholics down which lasted for a long time in 20th century Scotland and Northern Ireland

However i would argue that this culture is an idea, a fantasy, which has virtually been extinguished in Scotland and reduced to a sort of gang culture- albeit some pockets no doubt still flicker about within the establishment (low levels within the Police and Judiciary for example)

Anyway - how is that culture affected by a political Union with England. I know it's a tool oft used by Unionists

It isnt as far as i can see

Madness

 

   

You're right. It will be like South Africa where despite apartheid being a thing of the past you still see pockets of the country where your uber white supremacists will never accept present circumstances and still see Nelson Mandela as the work of the devil. Will be the same here, in areas such as Bridgeton and Larkhall. Thats fine, let them get on with it. The rest of us will be too busy trying to create a more tolerant Scotland

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8 hours ago, King Of Paisley said:

You're right. It will be like South Africa where despite apartheid being a thing of the past you still see pockets of the country where your uber white supremacists will never accept present circumstances and still see Nelson Mandela as the work of the devil. Will be the same here, in areas such as Bridgeton and Larkhall. Thats fine, let them get on with it. The rest of us will be too busy trying to create a more tolerant Scotland

That would be my hope. Want rid of sectarianism, vote for an independent Scotland.

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15 hours ago, Hertsscot said:

 Would most Unionists (and by that I mean those who don't just vote to retain it but buy into the culture) distinguish between union of crowns and union of Parliaments? The cultural manifestations of Uber Unionism (OO, marches, Union flags at Ibrox) are so tied to continuation of UK it is difficult to see what could continue.

Jon Snow must've annoyed someone at Channel 4 because I remember just before the 2014 referendum he was sent to the Louden Tavern to canvass opinion. The consensus among the locals was that they wanted to keep "The Crown". I think old Jon was too terrified to point out that wasn't on the ballot paper.

 

Edited by Toepoke
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On 6/21/2022 at 11:23 PM, King Of Paisley said:

I read an article online yesterday which was written by an Orangeman in Northern Ireland who reckons little is being done to modernise them i.e. the relaxation of the ban on attending Catholic ceremonies, lodges falling into disrepair and the numbers dwindling to the extent that lodges and districts are having to merge to up the numbers for the Twelfth. Also noted that the majority of the members are elderly as well. Im beggining to think that the generational thing being passed down about loyalism is being broken and younger people are seeing through it. Truth is, the OO, despite what they try and portray in public, is an utterly sinister organisation. Any organisation that can display a banner at a march  honouring the Shankill Butchers is beyond repulsive

Had one of these today in Linlithgow, much to my surprise as I didn't know it was that sort of place. Weren't many of them, two dozen max. Got very little interest from the locals but had to explain to my wife what the OO are. Couple of young lads maybe about 10-12 years old twirling stuff at the front, rest were solidly middle aged. Completely joyless compared to recent Linlithgow Marches.

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1 hour ago, Hertsscot said:

Had one of these today in Linlithgow, much to my surprise as I didn't know it was that sort of place. Weren't many of them, two dozen max. Got very little interest from the locals but had to explain to my wife what the OO are. Couple of young lads maybe about 10-12 years old twirling stuff at the front, rest were solidly middle aged. Completely joyless compared to recent Linlithgow Marches.

I walked passed it when it was turning down Mill Road, was pretty feckless looking. 3 folk and a dog following it.

Last one I remember was 20 years ago or something. Although if they're that small you would miss it unless it was right in front of you.

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14 hours ago, phart said:

I walked passed it when it was turning down Mill Road, was pretty feckless looking. 3 folk and a dog following it.

Last one I remember was 20 years ago or something. Although if they're that small you would miss it unless it was right in front of you.

Walked up cellars path today again, "WATP" and "BJK" spray-painted on the fence that wasn't there when I walked down yesterday,

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On 6/21/2022 at 8:57 PM, King Of Paisley said:

I would say that not all Rangers fans are uber Loyalists albeit they will be a minority. I think there is a group called Rangers For Independence.

Theres definitely a large minority of rangers fans who are pro indy. Maybe even as much as a third of their support imo. I think in the highlands alot of rangers fans are pro indy as well.

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On 6/21/2022 at 10:51 PM, Hertsscot said:

Thanks. Some good points that I hadn't really thought about. Would most Unionists (and by that I mean those who don't just vote to retain it but buy into the culture) distinguish between union of crowns and union of Parliaments? The cultural manifestations of Uber Unionism (OO, marches, Union flags at Ibrox) are so tied to continuation of UK it is difficult to see what could continue.

I think they are more interested in  maintaining the union of parliaments as thats what really matters imo. Plus they know that theres the strong possibility of scotland becoming a republic after independence. Its certainly something that other commonwealth countries have become or at least considered.

I think after indy there will always be a hardline group of unionists who will want scotland to rejoin the union. Its something that could cause a major problem imo, if even a third of scotlands electorate vote for a unionist party with a mandate for another referendum on rejoining the union then they will most likely get into power. 

With current indy polls usually showing a 50/50 split its a case of scotland being very much divided on the issue and that isnt the best situation to be in when thinking about the long term of an indy scotland. Theres also the strong possibility of the oo and other unionist groups growing in popularity as an act of rebellion against an independent scotland. 

I think its best just to let the oo and unionists carry on and allow them to be pro british if they want to be. Freedom of speech is important and i think it needs to apply to the oo despite many not liking what they stand for. If we dont allow them these rights i think it could cause a resurgence in their numbers and could harm scotlands long term chances as an independent country.

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3 hours ago, mccaughey85 said:

I think they are more interested in  maintaining the union of parliaments as thats what really matters imo. Plus they know that theres the strong possibility of scotland becoming a republic after independence. Its certainly something that other commonwealth countries have become or at least considered.

I think after indy there will always be a hardline group of unionists who will want scotland to rejoin the union. Its something that could cause a major problem imo, if even a third of scotlands electorate vote for a unionist party with a mandate for another referendum on rejoining the union then they will most likely get into power. 

With current indy polls usually showing a 50/50 split its a case of scotland being very much divided on the issue and that isnt the best situation to be in when thinking about the long term of an indy scotland. Theres also the strong possibility of the oo and other unionist groups growing in popularity as an act of rebellion against an independent scotland. 

I think its best just to let the oo and unionists carry on and allow them to be pro british if they want to be. Freedom of speech is important and i think it needs to apply to the oo despite many not liking what they stand for. If we dont allow them these rights i think it could cause a resurgence in their numbers and could harm scotlands long term chances as an independent country.

I imagine that there have been one or two countries which have achieved independence and for whatever reason there will have been a minority of people who didn't want that to happen and who longed for the old days and hankered to give up their independence.

I wouldn't want to see the OO banned, that would play into their hands about Natzis etc and propagate the myth that  they are some poor persecuted minority but do wonder whether there could be more restrictions in terms of routes, disruption etc. 

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6 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

 

I wouldn't want to see the OO banned, that would play into their hands about Natzis etc and propagate the myth that  they are some poor persecuted minority but do wonder whether there could be more restrictions in terms of routes, disruption etc. 

Is there anywhere in the World that allows parades which celebrate religious sectarianism

After all it's not really a battle they are celebrating is it

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15 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

I imagine that there have been one or two countries which have achieved independence and for whatever reason there will have been a minority of people who didn't want that to happen and who longed for the old days and hankered to give up their independence.

I wouldn't want to see the OO banned, that would play into their hands about Natzis etc and propagate the myth that  they are some poor persecuted minority but do wonder whether there could be more restrictions in terms of routes, disruption etc. 

Funnily enough a swastika was drawn by the same person (i'm assuming as same spray-paint) who drew all the FTP, WATP, BJK stuff yesterday.

It's on cellars path across from Sainsbury's as you walk up to the railway bridge and passed Mains Rugby park

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15 minutes ago, Hertsscot said:

I imagine that there have been one or two countries which have achieved independence and for whatever reason there will have been a minority of people who didn't want that to happen and who longed for the old days and hankered to give up their independence.

I wouldn't want to see the OO banned, that would play into their hands about Natzis etc and propagate the myth that  they are some poor persecuted minority but do wonder whether there could be more restrictions in terms of routes, disruption etc. 

Perhaps scotland could split into two states. One thats a republic and pro indy and one thats british and still part of the uk. A border could be drawn from somewhere in ayrshire along to just south of edinburgh. All the pro british scots could move to this newly formed scottish/british state and have all the oo parades and unionist parties they want while the rest of scotland gets on with independence. 

I am half joking but it would certainly be a way for unionist scots to have their own british/scottish area where they can do what they want and it would also mean that the new scottish republic could concentrate on being independent without having a large minority of scots unionists undermining it. 

I know its a crazy suggestion but the countries pretty much split down the middle regarding independence and its not ideal to be dragging at least 40 percent along who dont want scottish independence or a scottish republic which is personally what i want.

 

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11 minutes ago, mccaughey85 said:

I know its a crazy suggestion but the countries pretty much split down the middle regarding independence and its not ideal to be dragging at least 40 percent along who dont want scottish independence or a scottish republic which is personally what i want.

 

Brexit wasnt ideal 

If folk want to be ruled by England then we can fund it to help them move there

The irony of course is that England will want fuck all to do with them - same with the Ulster Unionists

And not because of Independence

They want fuck all to do with us now

Edited by Ally Bongo
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