Are Wales better than us?

[McTeeko]

The other thing that bugged me at the time was the pushing up front of Hanley for the last 10 mins. At the time I had lost track of the subs but we had only made three. Why no bring on Ross Stewart? I know he’s uncapped and probably raw, but he’s just off the back of a 26 goal season and scored at Wembley the week before. Surely had to be worth a try rather than throw a centre half up there? 🤷🏻‍♂️

Edited June 6, 2022 by McTeeko

[Malcolm]

9 minutes ago, Orraloon said:

So does Tierney, but he has been lucky that his mistakes haven't led to many obvious goals. To be fair I'm not sure McT has been at fault for as many goals as folk seem to be making out.

As you said though the main problem was that we played fantastic against Denmark. Why didn't we play the same system against Ukraine? We just needed to replace Tierney with a defender. The performance against Denmark wasn't all down to Tierney. Of course he played his part but it wasn't all about him. One player was unavailable so Clarke decides to reshuffle the whole team. Mental.

how do you replace tierney in that role?  Tierney plays like an attacking full back but from slightly in field.  I hardly saw cooper pass the half way line never mind get to the bye line.

 

im starting to think a back 4 and pushing Robertson in to midfield would be better.

                                  Gordon

patterson  souttar    McKenna    TierneY

                              Jack

mctominay      Mcginn mcgregor    Robertson

                              Adams

 

 

 

[daviebee]

9 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

how do you replace tierney in that role?  Tierney plays like an attacking full back but from slightly in field.  I hardly saw cooper pass the half way line never mind get to the bye line.

 

im starting to think a back 4 and pushing Robertson in to midfield would be better.

                                  Gordon

patterson  souttar    McKenna    TierneY

                              Jack

mctominay      Mcginn mcgregor    Robertson

                              Adams

 

 

 

No Gilmour?  I'd swap Tierney and Robertson around as well.

[Diamond Scot]

6 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

how do you replace tierney in that role?  Tierney plays like an attacking full back but from slightly in field.  I hardly saw cooper pass the half way line never mind get to the bye line.

 

im starting to think a back 4 and pushing Robertson in to midfield would be better.

                                  Gordon

patterson  souttar    McKenna    TierneY

                              Jack

mctominay      Mcginn mcgregor    Robertson

                              Adams

 

 

 

The argument atm is not playing players out of position though so the exact same thing would be getting said about Robertson everytime he didnt play well. Add to that McTomminay isnt a right mid also.

My take on that back 4 is we would conceede far more goals than we currently do. Full backs are mega attacking and neither Soutter not McKenna are good enough to handle a top class attack without additinal help (not meant as a criticism, I mean in the way VVD does for Liverpool)

[adamntg]

4 hours ago, DAVIDB46 said:

Maybe time to be controversial but perhaps we need to start to thinking of playing the best 11 players in their own positions , irrespective of who they play for and stop the show horning of players into the side.

 

 

How would work if three of our best players are left backs?

[scotlad]

5 hours ago, Toepoke said:

As was ours on Wednesday. 

Ukraine did have a load of possession as the Welsh dug in, but many of their efforts on goal were blooters over the bar.

Wales put in the kind of bodies on the line defensive performance you'd love to have seen from us.

 

That's true.

Wales undoubtedly were much better organised than we were and their attitude was spot on.

Sometimes I think when only one player stands out it shows that the others were all solid rather than spectacular. On the other hand, it can mean the others were all below par - that was us against Ukraine. 😒

[scotlad]

5 hours ago, ParisInAKilt said:

That’s true, we’ve not finished second in a long time I don’t think. 

Not since the Euro 2000 qualifiers.

[todd]

4 minutes ago, scotlad said:

Not since the Euro 2000 qualifiers.

Did we not finish 2nd for the 2004 euros under Berti?

[scotlad]

3 minutes ago, todd said:

Did we not finish 2nd for the 2004 euros under Berti?

So we did! 👍

[Toepoke]

2 hours ago, McTeeko said:

The other thing that bugged me at the time was the pushing up front of Hanley for the last 10 mins. At the time I had lost track of the subs but we had only made three. Why no bring on Ross Stewart? I know he’s uncapped and probably raw, but he’s just off the back of a 26 goal season and scored at Wembley the week before. Surely had to be worth a try rather than throw a centre half up there? 🤷🏻‍♂️

I thought so too. I can only think  Clarke did that to keep the option of pulling Hanley back if we equalised. 

 

[saintsparky]

When Tierney is unavailable, could Robbo play in the LCB role, and play Hickey at LWB?

He could fulfill the same attacking role that KT does.

Walker for England, and Ben Davies for Wales are both full backs who play in back threes...

[Texas Pete]

2 hours ago, adamntg said:

How would work if three of our best players are left backs?

You pick one to play at left back?

[Diamond Scot]

10 minutes ago, saintsparky said:

When Tierney is unavailable, could Robbo play in the LCB role, and play Hickey at LWB?

He could fulfill the same attacking role that KT does.

Walker for England, and Ben Davies for Wales are both full backs who play in back threes...

I actually think Hickey would be more suited to play LCB but I wouldnt be trying it in any competitive games.

What I do agree with is that we cant just keep the same formation and tactics but put players in who clearly arent that type of player.

Maybe Kingsley should be looked at as an backup to Tierney. Then it would be one from Hanley, Cooper and McKenna for CB and one from McTomminay, Soutter and Hendry for RCB.

[Diamond Scot]

3 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

You pick one to play at left back?

Taking this approach to the extreme, if you had Robertson, Tierney and Hickey as options at left back but all your CBs and RBs were playing at league 1 level. Would you really advocate leaving Tierney and Hickey out the starting 11?

As others have said, almost every other country in the world play players in different positions to the club sides. England have Walker at RCB when he has only ever been a RB. Ukraine play their Man City guy in midfield rather than defence. Even Wales had Bale in midfield when he was still considered to be a defender as it was felt that is where he would be most benefit to the team.

Surely if Clarke feels McTomminay brings more to RCB than Soutter and Hendry then thats where he should play him regardless of where he plays for Man Utd. Likewise with Tierney. One of the best things about Scotland in recent years is our ability to build from the back through midfield. Thats largely down to Tierney and McTomminays roles within the team.

[Texas Pete]

Just now, Diamond Scot said:

Taking this approach to the extreme, if you had Robertson, Tierney and Hickey as options at left back but all your CBs and RBs were playing at league 1 level. Would you really advocate leaving Tierney and Hickey out the starting 11?

As others have said, almost every other country in the world play players in different positions to the club sides. England have Walker at RCB when he has only ever been a RB. Ukraine play their Man City guy in midfield rather than defence. Even Wales had Bale in midfield when he was still considered to be a defender as it was felt that is where he would be most benefit to the team.

Surely if Clarke feels McTomminay brings more to RCB than Soutter and Hendry then thats where he should play him regardless of where he plays for Man Utd. Likewise with Tierney. One of the best things about Scotland in recent years is our ability to build from the back through midfield. Thats largely down to Tierney and McTomminays roles within the team.

If they can’t fit in anywhere effectively, yes, although if Tierney could stay fit for more than a couple of months at a time I would probably play him and drop Robertson. 

If we had 3 world class goalkeepers would you play 2 of them out of position? Not the same thing clearly but it does demonstrate how playing players out of position just because they are good players can hinder the team. 

Having a back 3 consisting of one genuine CB, a LB and a midfielder is asking for trouble in my opinion. Fine when you don’t have a choice but it should be a stop gap, not the preferred option. 

In Clarke’s defence, 3 at the back with Robertson at LWB and Tierney in the back 3 has worked pretty well but it only seems to work when Tierney is fit. Clarke has to have a plan B because Tierney has legs like Twiglets and will miss a lot of games. 

[Malcolm]

Without tierney playing lcb our whole system falls apart. Im not convinced he is a defencive or tall enough to play in a two at the back.  so if we persist with a back 5 and tierney we need to go with two out and out centrehalfs and  someone tall in the middle.  we lose loads of goals to headers.

Without tierney we would be better with four and a holding midfielder, but you are changing back and forward for one player.

 

[Third Lanark]

Bale apart, I still refuse to believe that Wales have better players than us. Ben Davies is class, but would he displace Tierney or Robbo? Ramsey, based on what he showed in our league, would not make our team. Hennessey is not better than Gordon. I can't see that any other player would make our squad. So how do we account for it?  The only explanation is that they have more pride in playing for their country, something I used to think we were unrivalled at.

[Diamond Scot]

9 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

If they can’t fit in anywhere effectively, yes, although if Tierney could stay fit for more than a couple of months at a time I would probably play him and drop Robertson. 

If we had 3 world class goalkeepers would you play 2 of them out of position? Not the same thing clearly but it does demonstrate how playing players out of position just because they are good players can hinder the team. 

Having a back 3 consisting of one genuine CB, a LB and a midfielder is asking for trouble in my opinion. Fine when you don’t have a choice but it should be a stop gap, not the preferred option. 

In Clarke’s defence, 3 at the back with Robertson at LWB and Tierney in the back 3 has worked pretty well but it only seems to work when Tierney is fit. Clarke has to have a plan B because Tierney has legs like Twiglets and will miss a lot of games. 

I dont think we are disagreeing that much tbh. Im sure Clarke is only doing it because he thinks that they are effective. I have to say I think Tierney at LCB has been brilliant even though he is also suspect at some long balls. It adds a dynamic to our game that is really good.

Likewise I also think McTomminay at RCB has largely been a sucess. Especially considering what the alternatives were. Id love to get to a stage where we can play a more natural defender at RCB who can offer the same things McTomminay does but perhaps abit better at defending. 

My big gripe in all of this is ppl just jumping on McTomminay and saying its because he is out of position when in fact he has cost us less goals from open play than the recognised defenders and also those that cant see or wont admit that he brings positives to the oosition that more traditional centre backs dont.

[Texas Pete]

2 minutes ago, Diamond Scot said:

I dont think we are disagreeing that much tbh. Im sure Clarke is only doing it because he thinks that they are effective. I have to say I think Tierney at LCB has been brilliant even though he is also suspect at some long balls. It adds a dynamic to our game that is really good.

Likewise I also think McTomminay at RCB has largely been a sucess. Especially considering what the alternatives were. Id love to get to a stage where we can play a more natural defender at RCB who can offer the same things McTomminay does but perhaps abit better at defending. 

My big gripe in all of this is ppl just jumping on McTomminay and saying its because he is out of position when in fact he has cost us less goals from open play than the recognised defenders and also those that cant see or wont admit that he brings positives to the oosition that more traditional centre backs dont.

McTomimay has played well in that position a few times but he’s too inconsistent and gives the ball away far too often. If Clarke thinks he’s the best we’ve got in that position then fair enough but if he is just trying to find a spot for him because he’s a Man U player then that’s a dangerous game. 

Will be interesting to see what happens next season if McKenna does well in the EPL and Souttar does well at Ibrox. 

[Caledonian Craig]

1 minute ago, Third Lanark said:

Bale apart, I still refuse to believe that Wales have better players than us. Ben Davies is class, but would he displace Tierney or Robbo? Ramsey, based on what he showed in our league, would not make our team. Hennessey is not better than Gordon. I can't see that any other player would make our squad. So how do we account for it?  The only explanation is that they have more pride in playing for their country, something I used to think we were unrivalled at.

Wales had an advantage over us. They learnt that Ukraine were not a team in disarray with not a proper preparation for the match. Wales saw that with the way they played in beating us so they knew what to expect. That is a big advantage when the element of surprise is taken away. 

The match stats from both games suggest we had more of the game than Wales did. The fact they got lucky with an own goal from a ball into an area no Welshman was five yards near and held on to win glosses things over for them.

Wales had 10 shots against Ukraine we had 14. 

Wales had 3 shots on target we had 4.

Wales had 32% possession we had 42%.

Wales had 4 corners we had 5.

Our defence was culpable no doubt. Every time they attacked they looked like they could score. However, even for as poor as we played (probably our worst for a couple of years) we were still in with a shout trailing 2-1 going into injury time.

Wales got lucky with their goal and slack Ukraine finishing unlike us but the bottom line people take is the result. Wales won and we lost so its presumed they are far superior to us. Bear in mind too Wales were at full strength whereas we were blunted by having no Kieran Tierney or Nathan Patterson who would have both started.

[Malcolm]

2 minutes ago, Texas Pete said:

McTomimay has played well in that position a few times but he’s too inconsistent and gives the ball away far too often. If Clarke thinks he’s the best we’ve got in that position then fair enough but if he is just trying to find a spot for him because he’s a Man U player then that’s a dangerous game. 

Will be interesting to see what happens next season if McKenna does well in the EPL and Souttar does well at Ibrox. 

Souttar/ McKenna would be my choice.

 

Mctominay in to a narrow midfield with jack, mcgregor, Mcginn.  Look at gilmour again next season to compete for one of these.

[Third Lanark]

1 hour ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Wales had an advantage over us. They learnt that Ukraine were not a team in disarray with not a proper preparation for the match. Wales saw that with the way they played in beating us so they knew what to expect. That is a big advantage when the element of surprise is taken away. 

The match stats from both games suggest we had more of the game than Wales did. The fact they got lucky with an own goal from a ball into an area no Welshman was five yards near and held on to win glosses things over for them.

Wales had 10 shots against Ukraine we had 14. 

Wales had 3 shots on target we had 4.

Wales had 32% possession we had 42%.

Wales had 4 corners we had 5.

Our defence was culpable no doubt. Every time they attacked they looked like they could score. However, even for as poor as we played (probably our worst for a couple of years) we were still in with a shout trailing 2-1 going into injury time.

Wales got lucky with their goal and slack Ukraine finishing unlike us but the bottom line people take is the result. Wales won and we lost so its presumed they are far superior to us. Bear in mind too Wales were at full strength whereas we were blunted by having no Kieran Tierney or Nathan Patterson who would have both started.

Well, that makes me feel a little better...

[Willie Miller's tache]

We can talk about formations, managers and players playing out of position etc all we like but for me the main reason why Wales are better than us is the contrasting levels of performance of our so called star players. It is clear that Bale absolutely loves playing (and scoring) for Wales. He is their talisman and always comes up with the goods. Andy Robertson, on the other hand, does not strike me as having nearly the same level of desire that Bale has and that cannot be good for the rest of the team. Robertson makes numerous serious mistakes in blue, mistakes which he simply does not make when playing for Liverpool. Just noticed he’s already 28. Wouldn’t surprise me if he retired internationally in a couple of years in order to “prolong his club career”. Wales will be a poor side without Bale. Robertson retiring will be a loss to Scotland but not as much as we might fear.

[Haggis_trap]

2 hours ago, Caledonian Craig said:

Wales had an advantage over us. They learnt that Ukraine were not a team in disarray with not a proper preparation for the match. Wales saw that with the way they played in beating us so they knew what to expect. That is a big advantage when the element of surprise is taken away. 

The match stats from both games suggest we had more of the game than Wales did. The fact they got lucky with an own goal from a ball into an area no Welshman was five yards near and held on to win glosses things over for them.

Wales had 10 shots against Ukraine we had 14. 

Wales had 3 shots on target we had 4.

Wales had 32% possession we had 42%.

Wales had 4 corners we had 5.

Our defence was culpable no doubt. Every time they attacked they looked like they could score. However, even for as poor as we played (probably our worst for a couple of years) we were still in with a shout trailing 2-1 going into injury time.

Wales got lucky with their goal and slack Ukraine finishing unlike us but the bottom line people take is the result. Wales won and we lost so its presumed they are far superior to us. Bear in mind too Wales were at full strength whereas we were blunted by having no Kieran Tierney or Nathan Patterson who would have both started.

Aye - good post...
Wales taught Scotland two simple lessons. 
Keep it tight at the back and get stuck in!

I am a Clarke fan, but he got tactics wrong on Wednesday night.  Ultimately we needed an extra man in midfield (McGregor and Gilmour got the run about all evening).  Extra midfielder could have come from sacrificing someone from the 5 man back line or a striker.

The reason we missed Tierney is that he is so good at stepping up into midfield / overlap on the wing at the right moment in the game.  Often Tierney ends up being one of our main attacking threats - finding space at the right time with opposition unsure how to mark him.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Haggis_trap

[ceudmilefailte]

9 hours ago, McTeeko said:

The other thing that bugged me at the time was the pushing up front of Hanley for the last 10 mins. At the time I had lost track of the subs but we had only made three. Why no bring on Ross Stewart? I know he’s uncapped and probably raw, but he’s just off the back of a 26 goal season and scored at Wembley the week before. Surely had to be worth a try rather than throw a centre half up there? 🤷🏻‍♂️

Maybe Clarke has had a decent look at Stewart now and doesn't think he is up to much.

Said before I know Sunderland fans that think that and I doubt many Ross County fans saw him as potential internationalist.

Brief look at the stats after the game and saw that Hanley had won the most aerial duels.

Assumed they were defensive, Looked just now and found out he had won 6 of his 7 headers in the opposition half. I guess this is the sort of thing coaches know that supporters don't. Hanley as a target man now that's a thought.

Straight swap for Dykes against Armenia.😉

Edited June 6, 2022 by ceudmilefailte